2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

Former Member — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:46:42 GMT

I teach the kids on my team both starts and then evaluate from there. Some of them are really slow and give up too much power by doing the track start, so they do the other. Others are just so quick that the grab start doesn't make sense for them. I think it just depends on the person.

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

Former Member — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 05:57:55 GMT

I hope to someday start from off the blocks to find out......will let you know.:)

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

Frank Thompson — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 04:14:36 GMT

okay, only for acuracy sake: Joe went under 20 in prelims and finals, Gary went a 20.02 prelims and then went under 20 himself in finals. So even if Gary had won the event, he would have been the 2nd guy under 20. Gary also went a 22.4 in the 50 M LC in 1980 at the meet that the boycotting nations attended. This was the fastest time in history at that point. But it wasn't a recognized event, and the race was not officially recognized (the official results show Gary going 23 something, because there were starter problems. Gary went 22.4 in the unoffical redo). Lefty: I remember that meet real well. It was the Hawaii Invitational and it was held in Honolulu in August of 1980 and was a farewell for the 1980 Olympic team members and others as a last meet in there careers. One of the others was Gary Schatz, who got 6th place in the 100 Free at the 1980 Olympic Trials and would have made the Olympic team, but like 1976 there was no Men's 400 Free Relay so he did not make the team. He missed making the 1976 Olympic team by .03 in the 100 Free and there was no 50 Free back in those days, so he never made the Olympic team. He was also the second man to go under 20 seconds, but never got the record because Joe Bottom did it first. The 50 Free was a new event internationally and he was one of the first great 50 swimmers of that era. When Bruce Stahl set the WR in the prelims at the 1980 Nationals with a :22.83 time, he was beaten in the finals by both Gary Schatz and Rowdy Gaines. Schatz won with a time of :22.86, just missing the record by .03 and Rowdy Gaines did a :22.91 and Bruce Stahl did a :22.92 and it was Gary's first National title. At the Hawaii Invitational, Joe Bottom did a :22.83 to tie the record in the prelims. In the finals he did a :22.71 for the new record. There was a lot of controversey about the final. When the starter's horn when off, Gary Schatz was left on the blocks standing. A lot of people that saw the race thought it was a fast if not false start and the field should have been called back. Schatz was just coming down when everyone hit the water. He nearly made up this disadvantage and passed swimmers like Chris Cavanaugh and Kris Kischner but ending up taking 3rd and almost caught Scott Findorff who was second with a time of :22.99 and Schatz's time was :23.02. Because of the contoversial start, a special 50 Free time trial was set up to see if Gary could break Bottom's record at the conclusion of the meet. This would be the final swim of his career. During this time trial, Gary had a good start and blasted a :22.47 to literally shatter the record. However the controversy continues. Gary Schatz's time however was not submitted for official recognition for the record or for the world rankings because it was not timed by fully automatically, meaning that the starter's electonic horn was not used but instead a hand held gun was used as the starting device. Ray Essick, who was the USA Swimming Director at the time would not permit Colorado Timing System personal to move the automatic timing equipment to the other end of the pool, so the race was hand started with a gun but electonically timed. Essick explained later why the race would not be timed fully automatically, saying that Schatz had had his chance in the individual 50 Free race itself and it wouldn't be fair to let him have a second chance at the record, particularly when Bottom was not swimming the race. So Gary Schatz's last race of his career that everyone had thought was a World Record was nothing but an exibition swim that did not count for anything. Years ago I talked to Jim Montgomery about this and he saw the final race and confirmed that it was a very rocky start to say the least and that from what he saw there is nothing that could not convince him that Gary Schatz did not go that :22.47 judging from the finals race and the time trial swim. So that is the story about the controversy about starter problems.

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

Former Member — Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:15:06 GMT

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

swimr4life — Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:23:51 GMT

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

poolraat — Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:15:43 GMT

The track start that my college coaches have taught me, I am not 100% sure its more efficient for me in terms of power and distance off the start, but my reaction time is better. But, the start they have tried to teach is very shaky, and all your weight is on that front foot, so it's a real tough balancing act... I tend to use the track start for the 50-200free events, and grab starts for the 100fly and ims...idk why, but thats what I've just done for a couple of years now and now it's mostly out of habit. It's interesting how you use a different start for the different events. I have heard, read and been told by coaches that the grab start is slower on reaction off the blocks but a more powerful start, The track start is a quicker start for the short sprints. My son (he's 14) learned the track start a few years ago but this past year he went back to the grab start for all his events. He's a sprinter (fly/free) and IM'er. He likes it because he says he's more stable on the blocks and hasn't had a false start since changing back to the grab.

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

knelson — Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:23:42 GMT

LOL! Really Old School swimmers are still doing the windmill, from which I switched to grab/track (haven't chosen one yet) only two years ago. Thanks for pointing this out because I was wondering why the grab start is called the grab start. What confused me is that You "grab" in the track start , too. Now I see the grab start name was to differentiate it from the windmill start where you didn't actually grab the block.

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

Former Member — Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:05:47 GMT

Gary was the second. Gary finished behindJoe Bottom at the 1977 NCAA champs. They were both under 20 but Joe got to the wall first. okay, only for acuracy sake: Joe went under 20 in prelims and finals, Gary went a 20.02 prelims and then went under 20 himself in finals. So even if Gary had won the event, he would have been the 2nd guy under 20. Gary also went a 22.4 in the 50 M LC in 1980 at the meet that the boycotting nations attended. This was the fastest time in history at that point. But it wasn't a recognized event, and the race was not officially recognized (the official results show Gary going 23 something, because there were starter problems. Gary went 22.4 in the unoffical redo).

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

Former Member — Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:56:55 GMT

Here is a video of the Men's 50 Freestyle from NCAAs for those of you that haven't seen it: www.youtube.com/watch

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

Former Member — Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:17:45 GMT

That may be true, but what ultimately matters is whether it gets you to the 15 meter mark faster than the grab start. It seems to me the two-foot "grab" start allows more power from the legs, so you're probably sacrificing a little on the reaction speed side, but gaining some on the initial horizontal velocity side. Maybe for people that have the track start really dialed in this isn't true. For me (at least ...I can't really speak for anyone else) I feel that the extra stability (in terms of balance mainly) that I gain from the track start over the grab start not only allows me to react faster to the beep....BUT also it provides me with more power on the start as well ....b/c in order to exert power I need to first start off in a somewhat sufficient stable balanced position (i.e. a sufficently sturdy postion so to speak). Even though the grab start seems to be able to "potentially" produce more power compared to the track start (as you pointed out in your posting above due to the extra power from the legs...and the legs are generally more powerful than the upper body), I can never seem to gain enough balance in the grab start position to actually obtain much power from it none-the-less.....So sufficient balance not only seems to me to be the key to faster reaction time but also in gaining more power from the start as well. Another related point is that, although the grab start seems to draw more on the power from the legs than the track start does, the amount of extra leverage I feel from the upper body using the track start over the grab start may also play a role in why the track start seems more powerful to me than the grab start (even though the upper body is not generally as strong as the legs).... I just think that the amount of extra power coming from the upper body in the track start may also outweigh (in fact) the loss in power coming from the legs in comparison with the grab start ...without even factoring in the extra general stability and balance the track start provides over the grab start. I can't, however, prove any of this Scientifically to support my position about it though...its all pretty much based on personal experience and the physical sensation that I am percieving. Racer X does make a pretty good point about the track start in his last posting as well IMO. Athletes (especially on the highest levels) tend to prefer the methods that are proven to be the fastest (at least in their own heads that is)...and there is no doubt that the track start has become by far the most predominant type of start these days amongst elite competitive swimmers. Newmastersswimmer p.s. Has anyone ever noticed that I sometimes repeat myself a bit? LOL!!

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

TRYM_Swimmer — Mon, 19 Mar 2007 04:23:56 GMT

To each his own. I think the only people doing grab starts these days are us old school swimmers. LOL! Really Old School swimmers are still doing the windmill, from which I switched to grab/track (haven't chosen one yet) only two years ago.

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

Former Member — Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:54:26 GMT

The proof is in the pudding, guys. The NCAA division I SCY 50 free is the fastest swimming event on the planet. If there was any advantage to the grab start, we would see it used in this event. When you have 3 guys tieing for second at 19.08, any advantage would be welcome. They all used the track start, so it HAS to be the superior start technique from the block all the way to the 15 yard mark. These guys are constantly looking for any gain, no matter how small, and no one uses the old school grab start.

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

Former Member — Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:50:32 GMT

I agree with this Kirk. Track starters may hit the water faster...but the grab start provides more force from the two legged launch. Every analysis done seems to show them breaking out of the water at more or less the same area..even if the track starters entered first. To each his own. I think the only people doing grab starts these days are us old school swimmers.

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

Former Member — Sat, 17 Mar 2007 05:34:44 GMT

To make up for it I'll take a 3 second head start in the 200 back. I forgot you were both from Midland. Yes we are. He as well as Doug Russell were much more accomplished than me. 3 seconds is way too generous. I haven't swam in a competition in almost 3 years. Not sure what I could do now. Kids keep me too busy to try and compete. Seems like the only time I have to swim is when my entire household is asleep at 5:30 am...

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

knelson — Sat, 17 Mar 2007 01:35:53 GMT

I think it gives the swimmer the capacity to react to the beep quicker. That may be true, but what ultimately matters is whether it gets you to the 15 meter mark faster than the grab start. It seems to me the two-foot "grab" start allows more power from the legs, so you're probably sacrificing a little on the reaction speed side, but gaining some on the initial horizontal velocity side. Maybe for people that have the track start really dialed in this isn't true.

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

Former Member — Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:41:07 GMT

Thanks, sorry I missed that. I remember that now. Gary is from my hometown, I was a bit younger when he was in his prime but we knew of him growing up. To make up for it I'll take a 3 second head start in the 200 back. I forgot you were both from Midland.

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

Former Member — Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:27:10 GMT

Now Allen, I never said it was faster for everyone, just faster for the fastest.:thhbbb:

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

Former Member — Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:38:03 GMT

Gary was the second. Gary finished behindJoe Bottom at the 1977 NCAA champs. They were both under 20 but Joe got to the wall first. Thanks, sorry I missed that. I remember that now. Gary is from my hometown, I was a bit younger when he was in his prime but we knew of him growing up.

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

Former Member — Fri, 16 Mar 2007 11:48:18 GMT

Gary was the first under 20 seconds. Still swims some masters meets. Don't forget about Shaun Jordan at Texas. He was a little guy but had phenomenal speed. Got him a gold medal at the Olympics. Gary was the second. Gary finished behindJoe Bottom at the 1977 NCAA champs. They were both under 20 but Joe got to the wall first.

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

Former Member — Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:55:21 GMT

As for a very few exception, Ben Michaelson being the only one I can remember. The best DII or DIII swimmers are not of the same calabur as the Top 20 DI swimmers in their respective event. DI swimming is composed of not only the best swimmers in our country, but abroad as well. It really is a true melting pot of some of the best athletes in the sport.

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

Former Member — Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:26:18 GMT

It's amazing the difference in caliber between division 1 and division 2...I was looking at the 50 free results up in Buffalo at the division 2 championships and NO ONE went under 20seconds...in fact the winning time was something like a 20.3 if I recall correctly...nearly 30 guys at division 1 champs went faster than the first place division 2 champ. That ***t is bananas!

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

Former Member — Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:16:57 GMT

I was told by a former Princeton swimmer that Jesse Gage who swam at Princeton, was 5'6!!! and went 19 solid in the 50 and 43 low in the 100. Gives us small guys hope.

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

Former Member — Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:53:20 GMT

Bork is right that one can be under 6 foot and still break 20 sec. Gary Schatz, another great Auburn sprinter and one of the first swimmers under 20 sec., is probably only about 5'9". And he's still swimming in the low-mid 22's in the 50-54 age group. I'm lucky enough to see him race at our Texas meets and it's always a thrill to watch him swim. Gary was the first under 20 seconds. Still swims some masters meets. Don't forget about Shaun Jordan at Texas. He was a little guy but had phenomenal speed. Got him a gold medal at the Olympics.

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

Allen Stark — Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:06:49 GMT

I don't think this proves the track start is faster for everyone. It is more stable and with the DQs for wiggle on the block it is certainly safer. It gives more opportunity for using your upper body and since all these sprinters have powerful upper bodies it is probably better for them. Is it better for a Masters swimmer with "diamond calves" ????:dedhorse:

RE: 2007 NCAA Division I 50 freestyle SCY

Former Member — Fri, 16 Mar 2007 07:23:58 GMT

The track start when done well is the equivalent of the human sling shot. But with regards to super fast swimming... Fred Bousquet's sub 19 sec. 50 free time (two years ago) was the psychological equivalent to ...the first man to break the four minute mile barrier in running. The door is wide open for new swimmers to join into this elite club. Based on Ian Crocker's recent display of SDK for his 41 sec. 100 free (at the American Short Course championships)...I think we'll be seeing more of a breakthrough in the 100 and 50 times very soon. Height not being a factor.