A solution to Title IX

RE: A solution to Title IX

Former Member — Wed, 05 Mar 2008 15:32:46 GMT

Allen, You bring up something that I have never understood and that is why there are no mixed relays in higher level competitions. It has never made sense why they just don't exist. Paul Well not growing up here it does seem that sports in the US offers so much in the way of oportunity to all kids. The amount of cash and goodies that are thrown at athletes on the whole is quite amazing. So Why should just 1 or 2 big sports get the best of it?

RE: A solution to Title IX

pwolf66 — Wed, 05 Mar 2008 10:26:37 GMT

Allen, You bring up something that I have never understood and that is why there are no mixed relays in higher level competitions. It has never made sense why they just don't exist. Paul

RE: A solution to Title IX

Allen Stark — Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:17:18 GMT

I am resurrecting this thread so that those who want to talk about title IX have a thread instead of hijacking the Big 12 thread.There needs to be some way to tell when a thread is hijacked.I was not very interested in Big 12 swimming but I am interested in title IX and nearly missed out on the "fun." This was my second idea about gender equality in swimming.About 10 yr ago my daughter and I wrote a letter to Swimming World that they published with the idea to make the NCAA Championship(and conference championships) coed.Have a combined championship like USA Swimming(and USMS) does.Have mixed relays(which I also think we should have at the Olympics.) I love to watch College Football,but it does not need 85 scholarships.The NCAA is never going to care about swimming,if swimming is going to prosper it is going to have to fix the problem itself.

RE: A solution to Title IX

dorothyrde — Wed, 06 Jun 2007 11:36:32 GMT

Our track team is quite good, and the school stands by it. But again, a track facility, even as nice of one as we have is not as costly as a pool to maintain. It took quite a bit of funds to put it in, but now that it is there, the maintance is not costly. A pool is costly to put in and costly to maintain.

RE: A solution to Title IX

Redbird Alum — Wed, 06 Jun 2007 05:26:40 GMT

Craig and Dorothy's comments made me think of something... Swimming, (like track and field, gymnastics, ice skating and wrestling), is more an individual sport than a team sport. It requires a special facility as well. Could it be that the team nature of the "favored" sports has something to do with the funding tendency in our public and private schools?

RE: A solution to Title IX

dorothyrde — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 10:50:05 GMT

I I bet mahomet has a kick-ass soccer program for young kids, extensive baseball and possibly a peewee football. It has a great soccer program, good baseball, softball, vollyball and track. The swimmers go to Champaign. You have to realize, it is very easy and inexpensive to have soccer fields. Our youth soccer fields are down by the river in the flood plain. Land no one else wants because in the spring it is under water. But many years it is dry, so it works, and in the fall it is never under. Softball and baseball fields are easy to maintain. The all weather track was costly, but now the school hosts sectionals which helps. But a pool's overhead is immense. People in this town already pay very high taxes, they won't pay more for a pool.

RE: A solution to Title IX

Former Member — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 09:32:22 GMT

Just a few points. Mens college basketball programs DO make money, almost all of them is my understanding. . What scares the athletic establisment so much is the thought of non scholarship student athletes starting on the football team because of reduced scholarships. The scholarship limit for football is 85 players. The Indianapolis Colts managed to do a good job in the Super Bowl with a roster of 45 players.

RE: A solution to Title IX

Former Member — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 09:29:49 GMT

I think in rereading many of these post, I have realized that there is a major reason why swimming isn't one of the most popular sports in this contry. We don't think of it as a sport that woula be open to all. In australia and mos tof the old eastern bloc, almost every child takes swimming lessons. what do we do for our children, why our national sports for children, baseball, football and soccer. Mahomet is a growing and wealthy town. If it were in either the south or the far west, it would have a pool and a powere age-group team. but because it is a small town in eastern Illinois, swimming pools are the major concern of the city rulers. I bet mahomet has a kick-ass soccer program for young kids, extensive baseball and possibly a peewee football.

RE: A solution to Title IX

Frank Thompson — Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:20:25 GMT

I was talking about universities with existing swimming pools. The high schools in my area without pools rent practice space at other pools. I also recently read that Ohio State cut men's swimming and indoor and outdoor track. Leslie: Are you sure you read that it was Ohio State that was going to cut Men's Swimming? I know of two high school boys from Michigan that were recently recruited to swim next year. www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/.../14835.asp Also Ohio State has just opened one the best facilities in the nation and its scheduled to host the 2008 NCAA Championship meet. ohiostatebuckeyes.cstv.com/.../mccorkle-pavilion.html

RE: A solution to Title IX

dorothyrde — Sun, 03 Jun 2007 08:30:43 GMT

I was answering Poolrat, because he was talking about High School. Sigh another Big 10 school cutting swimming? It would be impractical to try and rent space, because we are a smaller town, and the closest pools are in Champaign. Because pool space is at a premium, these pools are all booked up from 6am-10pm, so having outside towns try to come rent would not work. The U of I(when their main pool is open, been renovating for 2 years), does not rent to anyone, their mantra is that the pools belong to the students, and no outside sources can rent, although they will give non-premium hours(read 5am) to swim teams for 60.00 per hour. I think most parents would be unhappy with the thought of their child driving into C-U everyday, twice a day for practice, and the cost of busses for this would be too much. There is no mass transit, only corn fields and wide open spaces.

RE: A solution to Title IX

The Fortress — Sun, 03 Jun 2007 08:13:14 GMT

Tell that to our school board and district administration. We've been trying to get high school swimming for several years. We're the only 4A school in the state that does not have a swim team. All we hear is how much it wil cost. Of course just about every one of the administrators are former football or basketball coaches so that is all they care about. It is so frustrating. :frustrated: I was talking about universities with existing swimming pools. The high schools in my area without pools rent practice space at other pools. I also recently read that Ohio State cut men's swimming and indoor and outdoor track.

RE: A solution to Title IX

dorothyrde — Sun, 03 Jun 2007 07:32:08 GMT

They are probably referring to the cost of maintaining a pool. I know a few years back our HS looked into putting a pool in, it was even in the plans of a new field house that did get put in. The money was there to build it, but when they traveled around the state and talked to schools that had pools, they found out every one of them operated in the red with the pool because pool operation is costly. A couple of years after the field house was built, the state drasticly cut funding, and many schools struggled with major deficits. Our school was one of them. Through careful budgeting, added fees to parents, no programs were cut, and the school is not in a deficit. It may not have been that way with a pool. I wish there was a pool, especially if they offered public lapswim(the field house is open for public hours), because it is 3 blocks away, but the cost would not have helped the financial crisis our district and many others have in this state.

RE: A solution to Title IX

The Fortress — Sun, 03 Jun 2007 04:48:16 GMT

Sorry Frank. I mistyped. I read it was Ohio University.

RE: A solution to Title IX

Former Member — Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:27:10 GMT

Blaming Title IX or football won’t save swimming; swimming needs to save swimming. Rob: I agree. However, swimming is a small sport with high overhead. It would behoove the swimming industry and the elites to "give back". Normally, I'm not one for requiring a give back system, but without it the up-and-coming won't be there.

RE: A solution to Title IX

poolraat — Sat, 02 Jun 2007 11:05:27 GMT

Swimming is cheap compared to other sports. Tell that to our school board and district administration. We've been trying to get high school swimming for several years. We're the only 4A school in the state that does not have a swim team. All we hear is how much it wil cost. Of course just about every one of the administrators are former football or basketball coaches so that is all they care about. It is so frustrating. :frustrated:

RE: A solution to Title IX

The Fortress — Sat, 02 Jun 2007 10:50:38 GMT

Swimming is cheap compared to other sports. Major universities are rolling in money these days. There is no need to cut swimming. Last year, Stanford had 1 billion in alumni donations. Cornell had 1/2 billion. I'm sure Syracuse has huge support too judging from the Syracuse-crazy alums I know. Major universities do not pay property taxes, have huge returns on their investments (think Stanford and real estate), and hugly jacked up tuition. I'm sure somewhere in all those dollars there's room for swimming, which is usually only a few hundred thousand a year. Compare that to football.

RE: A solution to Title IX

Former Member — Fri, 01 Jun 2007 09:14:36 GMT

And yet another swimming program is cut: www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/.../14840.asp Once again, everyone and their brother is blaming Title IX instead of football and basketball. But those football players are getting a brand new stadium, after all. Yes , but the amount of money produced by those sports carry almost all the rest.

RE: A solution to Title IX

Former Member — Fri, 01 Jun 2007 07:54:39 GMT

I go to Rutgers. It is really pointless for them to cut the men's swim team. They have the same coach, practice times, and facility as the girls team. They don't give out alot of scholarships. Ther AD's reasons for cutting swimming and the other 5 sports do not make sense. The school board of governors will not even consider reinstating the team even though about 5 million was already raised and they got pledges for a couple of more million dollars if it is brought back.

RE: A solution to Title IX

The Fortress — Fri, 01 Jun 2007 06:39:15 GMT

Well, if swimming wants to help save swimming, here is a petition to sign protesting Syracuse's decision to cut swimming. www.thepetitionsite.com/.../850963259 I didn't attend Syracuse, obviously, but I understand they have a strong tradition in swimming and have sent swimmers to the NCAAs. I hear ya, Rob. It's easier said than done. Alumni support did save my college swim team, but you don't always get the support. I'm just really tired of endurance sports being the ugly stepchildren of college sports. And as you point out, football is not usually even profitable. I won't watch college football anymore.

RE: A solution to Title IX

Rob Copeland — Fri, 01 Jun 2007 05:35:19 GMT

Yes , but the amount of money produced by those sports carry almost all the rest.Most “Revenue Generating sports” are not profit making sports. Game admissions and TV do not cover the cost of the programs. Very few Division 1 football programs show a profit and most are costing significantly more in one year than a swim team costs in 10 years. However, any real solution doesn’t blame Title IX or football or basketball. The real solutions need to come from the inside out. College swimming programs need to look upon themselves as a business unit of the university. If they are a well run division, producing results and benefit to the university then the likelihood of being cut is greatly reduced. Swim programs will not often get cut if they have their scholarships fully endowed, are active in the community, are positively visible within the school (academically and athletically) , have strong alumni support, and are connected to local USA Swimming and Masters programs. Blaming Title IX or football won’t save swimming; swimming needs to save swimming.

RE: A solution to Title IX

The Fortress — Fri, 01 Jun 2007 02:04:32 GMT

RE: A solution to Title IX

Former Member — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:38:22 GMT

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I actually picked my college for academic reasons, but wanted to swim because I loved swimming. Your proposal, while very interesting, would have eliminated swimming/orphan sport as an option for me. I assume it would have eliminated race walking as well. I would then have been forced to take witchcraft. Are the colleges competing for the students or are the students now competing for the colleges? I thought the college admissions process was turning all high school students into stressed out nail biters who post on college admission blogs. You are already a practitioner of the dark arts. i.e. A lawyer. :smooch: Racewalking is almost non-existant in colleges. A few NAIA schools have it as an official part of their track program and that is it. I realize that this would have some serious repercussions, but if we continue down the path we are currently, some of these things may shrivel up and die anyway. Not sure, but I thought that I heard that colleges were really stretching for students. Maybe I misunderstood. Surely, Harvard isn't, but maybe East Dogbreath State is. -LBJ

RE: A solution to Title IX

Former Member — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:00:12 GMT

I say that if we keep 'em barefoot and pregnant all this hoo-haw about women's sports will go away. After all, don't they realize that if they do stuff like running, their uterus could fall out and drag in the dirt? Sports also makes women more masculine and then they become lesbians and start practicing witchcraft and then ... pffft.... there goes democracy and civilization. Honestly... It is unfortunate that some men's programs get cut "due to title IX", but in reality there has always been a finite pool of money for sports and historically the men have absorbed this pool. The emergence of women's interest in sport now cuts into the finite pool and something has to give. I'm sorry, but it's only right that if a women wants to lose her uterus...errr... do sports, she should have the same right/opportunity as a guy to do so, sorry for the collateral damage. Here's another idea to perhaps save some of the "lesser" sports: Have the colleges that are interested, "divvy" up the sports. In other words, stop trying to have any one college be all sports to all people and just keep the sports that have a good chance of survivng at a college. I realize that this is done that way now, but it is currently an organic process and sloppy. Rather, have the colleges meet and try to promote an equitable dissemination of the sports, both economically and geographically, among them with the idea that this will concentrate the talent, keep interest up where there will be funding and stabilize the situation for each sport, even if it means an initial contraction in overall number of programs. Each college would rank their sports into three tiers. For most colleges, tier 1 would be the "usual suspects": Football, basketball. Tier 2 is a strong program that the college, for whatever reason really wants to keep. e.g: track, soccer, etc. Tier three are "red-headed stepchildren" of most schools: e.g. lacrosse, rowing, etc. Assume that they colleges will keep tiers 1 & 2 and a few tier 3 sports, then try to find a best fit for seeing that each of the tier three sports have "adequate" coverage on a national basis by getting them 'adopted" by the colleges. Second proposal: Have the orphan sports move down to Division II and III schools in a manner similar to the above. This has 2 possible benefits: it keeps the sports viable and it gives a college with, say, a focus on swimming, a concentrated pool of applicants to draw from. I understand that many of the smaller colleges are competing hard for students, but with a fewer number of schools doing a sport, this will allow the colleges to specifically target a group who will, by definition, be interested in them. In reality, I've never understood the focus of colleges on sports. I thought it was supposed to be an academic experience. I went to Penn State for graduate school and the focus on football always struck me as very odd, even though I will give huge props to the football program for their emphasis on making the football players be regular students as well. We, as a society, have strange priorities. -LBJ

RE: A solution to Title IX

The Fortress — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:46:36 GMT

You are already a practitioner of the dark arts. i.e. A lawyer. :smooch: Racewalking is almost non-existant in colleges. A few NAIA schools have it as an official part of their track program and that is it. I realize that this would have some serious repercussions, but if we continue down the path we are currently, some of these things may shrivel up and die anyway. Not sure, but I thought that I heard that colleges were really stretching for students. Maybe I misunderstood. Surely, Harvard isn't, but maybe East Dogbreath State is. -LBJ What else did you want me to do with my D1 college degree and witchcraft courses? ;) I don't know about East Dogbreath State, but I'm sure it's a sad day if they have shuttered dorms and no racewalking. My very parochial experience is with the colleges in VA. We have some excellent state schools here. The competition to get in is fierce. March is not a real happy month for most kids. Unless you're class valedictorian, you are sweating. Even the class valedictorian's aren't getting into Harvard anymore. There has been a lot of press lately on the creation of college admission blogs to attempt to stem student panic.

RE: A solution to Title IX

aquageek — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:33:11 GMT

Are the colleges competing for the students or are the students now competing for the colleges? I thought the college admissions process was turning all high school students into stressed out nail biters who post on college admission blogs. Good question. My bro got his MBA at NAU in Flagstaff and they are actually having trouble getting students and have temporarily shuttered a dorm or two. My impression was that of yours. Flagstaff is a pretty sweet place and it has a great pool.