Pankratov vs. Crocker underwater kick

RE: Pankratov vs. Crocker underwater kick

Former Member — Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:16:29 GMT

But are you hydrodynamic? Yes, I'm being a pip. I don't know?...Is that like anything like being hydroponic by chance? Newmastersswimmer

RE: Pankratov vs. Crocker underwater kick

mattson — Wed, 14 Mar 2007 01:02:02 GMT

you are certainly not as aerodynamic with your hands apart But are you hydrodynamic? Yes, I'm being a pip.

RE: Pankratov vs. Crocker underwater kick

Former Member — Wed, 07 Mar 2007 15:09:27 GMT

But how much are your arms contributing to propulsion during the streamline? Typically not at all. In Pankratov's case maybe they did contribute a little bit. But I think the main reason to keep your arms slightly apart is to assist in the full-body dolphin motion. At least for me it seems very difficult to get the entire body involved with the arms tightly locked. It's easier if they're apart. It's gotta be a trade-off, though, because you are certainly not as aerodynamic with your hands apart. Like you said, the arms apart aid the dolphin motion; sorry, I didn't clarify. And it does aid the underwater dolphin forward propulsion. I would be a person who would choose speed over aerodynamics if they are ever at odds with one another; i.e, the arms apart/more dolphin motion. And sometimes they can be such as starts and turns, but I only see a few people capable of doing this. But it is a big Wow to many when they view it also. One more point I would like to make is many people stay on their sides a little bit longer off the turns, and others do not. I think this is where one might view aerodynamics vs speed if these two things can even be measured at all because two different people are doing two different things. It probably should be measured by testing the same person doing both. Hope I didn't get off topic, my brain is actually trying to work today.

RE: Pankratov vs. Crocker underwater kick

Former Member — Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:23:16 GMT

I really think one has to find what works for them. I have a very long push off the wall and I can keep up with most everyone on my team or beat them off the wall. I have been told that I should do that, but it works well for me. I don't put one had over the other, though I do put one thumb over the other and have a couple of fingers overlap. I also tuck my head so my chin is on my chest. I have found that this works for me a lot better the hand over hand and the head in the "normal" possition. I even had my coach ask me about it a couple of weeks ago. I have found that I can come off the wall at least two body lengths without kicking doing this, I usually come up the same place but faster when I do kick. I'm guessing Pankratov found something that works for him and he went with it.

RE: Pankratov vs. Crocker underwater kick

Former Member — Wed, 07 Mar 2007 13:43:53 GMT

I remember one swimmer (not a top flyer) told me that he didn’t lose to Pankratov in a 25m underwater dolphin race from a push-off. And their sprint time was not very fast. Another witness was impressed by the fast 50m underwater swim Denis had as a teenager. Probably Pankratov developed this underwater dolphin technique that efficiently blended into his world record times in the 100m and 200m fly. If you swim 4 x 20 - 25m underwater in a 200m fly, as he did, you have to be careful not to run out of fuel at the 175m mark or even earlier. You might have seen those poor flyers who “hit a wall” just 15 meters before an actual wall. Spectators got a mixed feeling of sadness and entertainment. :applaud: I think his underwater swim is a good example of a well balanced racing strategy for the whole race at the best possible time.

RE: Pankratov vs. Crocker underwater kick

knelson — Wed, 07 Mar 2007 12:53:56 GMT

But if you're flexible, doesn't it make sense to use the streamline and the hands fully locked position? Doesn't that actually require more flexibility than the hands apart method? Yes, I think ideally Crocker's position is the best, but like you said, it doesn't work for everybody.

RE: Pankratov vs. Crocker underwater kick

The Fortress — Wed, 07 Mar 2007 12:39:28 GMT

But how much are your arms contributing to propulsion during the streamline? Typically not at all. In Pankratov's case maybe they did contribute a little bit. But I think the main reason to keep your arms slightly apart is to assist in the full-body dolphin motion. At least for me it seems very difficult to get the entire body involved with the arms tightly locked. It's easier if they're apart. It's gotta be a trade-off, though, because you are certainly not as aerodynamic with your hands apart. I think each person has to test out what works best for him. As Wookie says, mainstream is not the answer for everyone. I have been doing tons of SDK-ing recently, so this topic is interesting. When I watched the videos of Crocker's recent 100 free and 100 fly at the SCY Champs, he didn't even look like he was doing a "full body dolphin" in the traditional undulating S. The dolphin action was very minimal but still had unbelievable propulsion. When I do it, I always have my hands together like Crocker. But I might test it out the other way. I never thought to try it. It doesn't seem logically like it would be as aerodynamic. It seems more like the core and lower body is activated while underwater, as Good/Evil Smith suggests? But if you're flexible, doesn't it make sense to use the streamline and the hands fully locked position? Doesn't that actually require more flexibility than the hands apart method? Any vids of Pankratov?

RE: Pankratov vs. Crocker underwater kick

knelson — Wed, 07 Mar 2007 12:24:31 GMT

I think it is obvious that by his not streamlining to the norm and having arms/hands further apart, he is able to pull more water thus = faster. It overcomes the word streamlining. More of his body is being used. But how much are your arms contributing to propulsion during the streamline? Typically not at all. In Pankratov's case maybe they did contribute a little bit. But I think the main reason to keep your arms slightly apart is to assist in the full-body dolphin motion. At least for me it seems very difficult to get the entire body involved with the arms tightly locked. It's easier if they're apart. It's gotta be a trade-off, though, because you are certainly not as aerodynamic with your hands apart.

RE: Pankratov vs. Crocker underwater kick

Former Member — Tue, 06 Mar 2007 13:43:11 GMT

I have always believed some of the things some of the time, but with experience, mine and others, I see mold-makers not following suit with the understood "way to do things." Think about this: if you do a weight-room pulldown with both hands (front lat pulldown hands close together), you will pull xxx pounds. And then get on the pulldown machine where your arms and hands are further apart. Voila, you will pull more weight because more of your entire upper body is aiding the effort. I think it is obvious that by his not streamlining to the norm and having arms/hands further apart, he is able to pull more water thus = faster. It overcomes the word streamlining. More of his body is being used. I do a lot of under/over drills and when my arms/hands are further apart, I travel faster. Experiment and find out. Next question: is this legal by today's standards or is he swimming "another stroke" so to speak.

RE: Pankratov vs. Crocker underwater kick

Former Member — Tue, 06 Mar 2007 12:46:16 GMT

Or maybe Pankratov would have been faster if he knew the technique Phelps demonstrate.:rolleyes: Or he might have been slower. No use in doing "if's" since we will never know.

RE: Pankratov vs. Crocker underwater kick

Former Member — Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:51:45 GMT

Or maybe Pankratov would have been faster if he knew the technique Phelps demonstrate.:rolleyes:

RE: Pankratov vs. Crocker underwater kick

Former Member — Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:43:25 GMT

Perhaps keeping your hands together is not quite as important as genetic flexibility and lower body strength in the end. John smith

RE: Pankratov vs. Crocker underwater kick

Former Member — Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:42:45 GMT

Can anyone comment on why Pankratov’s (arguably wrong?) underwater kick was still fast:dunno: This motion with the hands did cause some controversy at the Atlanta Olympics. Some people felt that he was sculling the water, which according to the way people read the rules at the time was illegal. I don't think his motion was wrong for him. This may not be the best thing for other people, but it was one phase that helped him out. So, it may not be main stream but that doesn't make it wrong.

RE: Pankratov vs. Crocker underwater kick

Muppet — Tue, 06 Mar 2007 04:26:46 GMT

Dmitri, Great question - I find myself going faster when my hands are NOT together, similar to the way you're describing Pankratov's technique.