Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

Former Member — Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:05:22 GMT

Paul does Swim Labs have a web site??? Thanks anyway paul just found it www.swimlabs.com/index.htm This morning myself, my wife Laura, Rich Abrahams, Susan Von der Lippe & Sheri Hart went to do video analysis at a new facility a friend of ours just opened up (Swim Labs; has 3 endless pools w/video).....some very interesting stuff to say the least.....especially when we used th side by side video comparisons.....I'll download soon on YouTube and provide a link. In the meantime....a lot of people may not have ever seen this clip of Fast Freddy going 18.74 in the 50 free.....the most impressive combination of speed, power, spl, dps, kick I've ever seen...... www.youtube.com/watch

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

Paul Smith — Fri, 16 Mar 2007 11:14:33 GMT

George....they do.....www.swimlabs.com Quite an interesting session with Rich Abrahams, Sheri Hart, Susan Von der Lippe, myself and my wife Laura.... Its been sometime since I was in an endless pool.....and I've never been taped in one.....overall it was vry helpful although I found swimming against the current vs. a pool changes my stroke a fair amount (on fly my entry/pull is much wider...I'm debating downloading the video to youtube.....we'll see!

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

Former Member — Sat, 10 Mar 2007 15:21:55 GMT

Its my pleasure Poolraat, click here for head-up swimming so called 'tarzan drill'. Hi Here's a 13 minute Video of Popov during which he does a Tarzan stroke (amongst other things). swimmingscience.blogspot.com/.../alexander-popov.html Cheers

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

Former Member — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 13:17:17 GMT

Its kinda strange that Freddy actually looked a little behind lane 2 and maybe even lane 1....(if Freddy was in lane 3 that is and not lane 6...if so then convert appropriately) ....yet after the turn he popped up first and then just opened up the nitrous tank and flew.....Different than the video of Crocker's 100 free where Crocker clearly pops up last on the start and all turns.....and is clearly out in front even from the start. I would love to see a 50 free race between Freddy and Crocker ...it would be interesting to see the 2 different styles side by side....but one thing they both have in common is their DPS and SPL...although I bet Crocker's SPL is lower because he seems to go farther underwater. Newmastersswimmer

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

Muppet — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 12:15:22 GMT

I could watch Michael Jordan dunk as many times as I wished, and study slo-mo video of how he jumps and do any number of drills - or weight training, or plyometrics. I'd still never dunk. Terry, Did you try lowering the basket? I find that helps my dunking abilities tremendously :joker: Great OW article in USMS Swimmer, btw. Interesting stuff, plus great picture of Barra. More on topic, we did some Stroke Per Lenth counting last night, a set with longer pulls followed by 50s. I have been trying to shy away from these drills to keep the arm speed up, but was noticing throughout the set that there wasn't much of a difference in the number as I tried to work my arms faster. I guess somehow throughout the practice, I came to some sort of happy medium of long strokes with faster moving arms.

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

Former Member — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 11:06:07 GMT

That is a great 50 last 25 17 srokes?? First 25 14 or 15?? I am not sure i have trouble viewing videos down here. Very slow downloads and jumpy.

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

Paul Smith — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 09:08:09 GMT

Ok, I have to admit that when our coach calls for DPS or stroke counting during a set, I fake it. Why, it is usually at slower intervals and it seems like it just too easy to cheat with out getting any real benefits. Kevin....you ad 99% of most swimmers I would estimate. Hey its in our nature to "grind" out the yardage and get out of the pool with that totally wasted sensation that we get addicted to. And for the 98% of masters swimmers that may be all they are ever interested in and they'll avoid the hard work it takes to back off....slow down and work on stroke technique. For the 2% of us who want to compete and get faster its a different story....unless we all take the time address technique we'll see a much more rapid decline of our times as we age up....the scary thing is having a guy like Mr. Abraham's working on getting better....is anyone else afraid! PS: the absolute hardest workouts I do are focused drill days.....tons of sculling/dps work integrated w/breath control, descending speed sets w/spl focus, etc. etc. It's a different kind of pain.....and then mental fatigue often exceeds the physical!

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

Former Member — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 06:51:36 GMT

For the 2% of us who want to compete and get faster its a different story....unless we all take the time address technique we'll see a much more rapid decline of our times as we age up....the scary thing is having a guy like Mr. Abraham's working on getting better....is anyone else afraid! I think I need to make that choice to be one of the 2%. Up until Worlds last year, my goals had been primarily fitness related. I used my times as just fitness bench marks. An example is my LCM 200 free. I went from 2:33 in 2005 to 2:12 at worlds in 2006. The bulk of that drop is directly attributed to losing about 35 pounds and increasing my fitness level. Since then I've been a bit ruderless in the pool thinking about maintaining wieght and fitness rather than swimming faster. So this thread has me inspired to focus on technique in order to swim faster. DPS, Starts,turns, SDK's and breath control are all things I have ignored up until now. And if you've seen me swim it shows. What time improvements can be gained in these areas, only time will tell. But I do have to mentally commit to these things in order to improve them. Kevin

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

Paul Smith — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 05:37:46 GMT

This morning myself, my wife Laura, Rich Abrahams, Susan Von der Lippe & Sheri Hart went to do video analysis at a new facility a friend of ours just opened up (Swim Labs; has 3 endless pools w/video).....some very interesting stuff to say the least.....especially when we used th side by side video comparisons.....I'll download soon on YouTube and provide a link. In the meantime....a lot of people may not have ever seen this clip of Fast Freddy going 18.74 in the 50 free.....the most impressive combination of speed, power, spl, dps, kick I've ever seen...... www.youtube.com/watch

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

swimr4life — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 02:04:09 GMT

I think I need to make that choice to be one of the 2%. Up until Worlds last year, my goals had been primarily fitness related. I used my times as just fitness bench marks. An example is my LCM 200 free. I went from 2:33 in 2005 to 2:12 at worlds in 2006. The bulk of that drop is directly attributed to losing about 35 pounds and increasing my fitness level. Since then I've been a bit ruderless in the pool thinking about maintaining wieght and fitness rather than swimming faster. So this thread has me inspired to focus on technique in order to swim faster. DPS, Starts,turns, SDK's and breath control are all things I have ignored up until now. And if you've seen me swim it shows. What time improvements can be gained in these areas, only time will tell. But I do have to mentally commit to these things in order to improve them. Kevin Kevin, That's an impressive time drop! You should be very proud of that! There is no limit to what you could do if you team technique work with what you have been doing already! Set your goals, take time to work on technique and stay consistent...there will be no limit to what you could achieve.

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

Former Member — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 14:26:06 GMT

I loved watching Laure Manadou's 400 free; it sure brings back memories. I have always been a 2-beat kicker in free, but 6-beat in backstroke. A couple of things I noticed in that video was, as someone else noticed, she really kicked off those turns and then got into the 2-beat kick and "her" swim rhythm. This is partly what I have said a few times in the past that a person needs to develop their own swim style within the guidelines of correct swimming. I would venture to bet that if she went to a multi-beat kick, she'd lose her rhythm and not swim as well because her body has figured out this works for her. And I did notice she breathed more than the girl that was pushing her; ah, the benefits of oxygen. So it is apparent that a swimmer can be great with or without a lot of kicking; at least at that distance. Her catch and grab was terrific.

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

poolraat — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 12:00:49 GMT

Paul, I think your initial post is great. In the past I’ve never been much of a drill advocate as I shared your view that they often weren’t connected enough with improving racing speed. You mentioned the U of A drills. Have you seen the new video series from Frank Busch and staff? I saw the freestyle one and was totally blown away. The next day I order one of those snorkels (which hasn’t come yet, darn). I love the way they progress through each drill and always end with 4 X 25 swim descending the time in order to never forget that speed in the water is the goal. I also can relate to keeping the drills to 25 yards at a time so you maintain your concentration. Their drills are also very “kickcentric” which I can relate to. Where can I find this video series? I just got a snorkel and am looking for ways to incorporate it's use into my training.

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

Former Member — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 11:40:02 GMT

Ok, I have to admit that when our coach calls for DPS or stroke counting during a set, I fake it. Why, it is usually at slower intervals and it seems like it just too easy to cheat with out getting any real benefits. However, I do notice that on some days when I am feeling off and not hitting times I should that I have a tendancy for my hands to track wide and my pull is not be in sync with my core rotation ( and or my core rotation is lessened). And this is mostly when I sprint. And more often when I am tired. One day I will be two seconds faster on a sprint 50 than the next day. So while swimming slow repeats working on stroke count probably won't help that. However, I think swimming a descend while maintaining the same stroke count like Paul did could be very helpful for me to understand where, when and how things start to get out of sync. Thanks for such a great thread, Paul. Kevin

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

Former Member — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 10:47:14 GMT

Rich and Paul, Thanks for the info. I also live at altitude 5100+, so all my workouts are oxygen deprived.

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

Former Member — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 10:27:40 GMT

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

The Fortress — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 05:58:10 GMT

Some advise from a long time snorkeler for you guys: - Its very claustrophobic initially - consider nose plugs at first....its a real problem on turns for many people - you'll find you don't need to exhale as hard as you think you do to clear water coming off the walls - Try it not just with drills.....but also on long pull sets with fins.....I first started doing this after seeing both the ASU & U of A teams doing it.....you can really get into a rhythm..... Thanks for the advice. I have a dorkle in the closet. Haven't been able to flip with it so well. I'll try again. I already lost the nose clip I bought. Wouldn't stay on ... Maybe your shoulders would be even happier, Paul, if you did some of that RLSMVF instead of EVF with fins. :thhbbb:

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

Paul Smith — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 05:34:50 GMT

Poolraat, I'm pretty sure you can find it advertised in "Swimming World" and it's probably available through some swimming retail websites like Keifer. I got mine as a present. I received my snorkel yesterday but won't be able to use till the weekend due to work. Actually, it'll give me some time to review the video and take notes as there are at least a dozen freestyle drills I was not familiar with before. I want to make sure I'm doing them correctly. They all emphasize body line, either coordinating the catch with the kick or the catch with hip rotation. Rich Hey Rich.....just got back from Vegas and dug out of another 16" of snow....ahhhh! Great analogy on your post with the "faucet".....that is far more accurate than the "shifting gears" I used..... Some advise from a long time snorkeler for you guys: - Its very claustrophobic initially - consider nose plugs at first....its a real problem on turns for many people - you'll find you don't need to exhale as hard as you think you do to clear water coming off the walls - Try it not just with drills.....but also on long pull sets with fins.....I first started doing this after seeing both the ASU & U of A teams doing it.....you can really get into a rhythm..... Rich.....see you in the morning!

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

Former Member — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:49:34 GMT

Thanks for sharing this Paul...along with that clip of Ian. I have the same stroke count as you but not the speed. The greatest swimmers have a high degree of flexibility which allow them to maintain a very high elbow throughout the stroke. I imagine this is exactly how you swim.

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

Former Member — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:15:48 GMT

Thank you, thank you, thank you! Paul - I had the best workout last night in years. I was really able to tell the difference when I focused on "winding up" my core and really pulling the water. My "cruise" time for a 200 yd free dropped almost 20 seconds!!!!! I was a bit more winded, but clearly I had not used all of my muscles and was swimming like a tanker. ha ha. My mental image was one of pointing my belly button to the side of the pool....holding it and then "snapping" my hips and core to point my belly button to the other side of the pool. Totally awesome. Any breakdown of back stroke and *** would be GREATLY appeciated. :groovy:

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

Paul Smith — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:49:36 GMT

Just swam this morning with the Las Vegas Masters....another one of my favorite teams. Coach Vic must have been followng this conversation as most of the warm up was built around streamline, dps, spl work.....the main set for this was: 6 x 100's @ 2:00 25 = 2-switch (kick on one side, rotate to the other once) 25 = 4-switch 25 = 4 strokes w/right arm....4 strokes w/left (I did 3 and 3) 25 = 9 strokes or less I held 1:20's on all 6 Then the main set came: 3 x 5 150's descend first round @ 2:15, 2nd on 2:05, 3rd......I have no idea as I pulled the first round and bailed!!

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

Paul Smith — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:22:17 GMT

Love the fartlek drill. Paul, I have to do that with you sometime. Your draft would be awesome! When you coming back to Phoenix? Sam....hoping to spend April down that way....sick of all the snow already back here in CO! And no drafting unless I get to tie a short lead to you on backstroke sets!

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

Former Member — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:52:06 GMT

I too find the diagonal connection most prevalent (opposite hand and foot) when trying to add speed without increasing spl.The kick that falls in sync with my hand entry is clearly more powerful than the others. (4 beat, 6 beat) posted by David Barra in response to Terry's observations Its interesting that I have never noticed this sensation before...but now that both you and Terry have mentioned it I will try and keep my mind open to that sensation as well and see if I can sense something similar. Thanks for posting about it. Newmastersswimmer BTW Zappa rules!!....Well he's not Jerry Garcia...but he can play that guitar!....just thought I would slip that in if thats o.k.....its an afterthought only.

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

rtodd — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:45:04 GMT

I'm just a ham 'n egger, but I too notice that I drop down a stroke when the kick is full on. When I swimming a bit easier and relaxed I end up adding a stroke.

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

Former Member — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:44:29 GMT

During the faster repeats, the most significant changes are that I drive from my opposite foot to my spearing-forward hand with all the muscle and mass between them and feel my bodyline knife forward with significant momentum as a result. I too find the diagonal connection most prevalent (opposite hand and foot) when trying to add speed without increasing spl.The kick that falls in sync with my hand entry is clearly more powerful than the others. (4 beat, 6 beat)

RE: Distance per Stroke/Strokes per Lap

Former Member — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:13:19 GMT

....I have a lot of secret nemesis' to deal with now...and it looks like most of them (well all of them except Rich....LOL!!) are faster than me right now....LOL!! Newmastersswimmer I've got radar when it comes to your hidden digs Borky...:thhbbb: I'm being very good about examining my swimming of late, as I work on my endurance for distance on Front Crawl. Still feel a little clumsy when I rotate to breathe on left but it's coming along...tonight I have IM and Fly focus...if I can just get the SDK down...