How much endurance training?

RE: How much endurance training?

The Fortress — Thu, 18 Jan 2007 01:05:39 GMT

I want to clarify my(still evolving) position on race pace. In this part of the season I am doing long slow stuff.As my shoulder allows I'll be doing some "swim pretty" breaststroke.In Feb. I'll start adding race pace work. I swim 4 days a week and 1 day is sprints,1 day is 100 pace,one day is 200 pace and one day is some of everything. As the season progresses the % of swim pretty decreases,but never goes to zero. To save my knees and for variety I don't do all breaststroke. Warm-up,warm-down is mostly free and as my shoulder allows I like to swim some fly as well as breaststroke pull/dolphin kick with fins. This seems to work for me,your results may vary. Fort and Rich and anyone,if you can post a video I'll make suggestions. Allen: I'm scared to post a video of my breaststroke! It would likely be too humiliating when all the breaststrokers anaylzed it. I think I need to work on streamlines that get me closer to that 15 meter mark so I don't have to do much of it for the 100 IM I'm swimming without you. When is you're next meet? I'm assuming from the above that it's in March? I've been doing some longer slower stuff lately. (Longer is a relative term). I did a little speed work yesterday, but generally I'm saving that for February as well. My next meet, assuming no ill-timed cold or shoulder issue is in late March. So I think I'm on about the same training regimen as you. Well, except for completely different strokes. :rofl: Caped: It gave me a good laugh too.

RE: How much endurance training?

Former Member — Wed, 17 Jan 2007 15:39:18 GMT

It is a sales gimmick - by many selling swim lessons or promoting their so called specialized programs. Well, it's apparently a good one then. Just ran across a book called "Made to Stick: Why Some Ideas Survive and Others Die." The key to stickiness is SUCCES: Simple, Unexpected, Concrete, Credible, Emotion-evoking, and embedded in Stories, all with initial caps. The review of this book, while lauding the ideas, noted that the "mindful" (I kid you not) authors needed to modify SUCCES with WIT, Worthwhile, Important and True. Anyway, it gave me a laugh.

RE: How much endurance training?

Former Member — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 16:41:17 GMT

To each his own and to each his own swimming goals. I just don't like being ragged on for using them when it's generally a shoulder thing. Seems to be a fairly common occurence. In my own experience, which isn't that much, most elite/Mindful masters swimmers don't tend to like fins. I was once told, in a joking but not so joking way, that fin users with chronic shoulder issues should get out of the fast lane. Not so nice. I actually don't recall ever touching fins when I was a youngster and more Effortlessly hawt. Tee-hee. And you're right, better to make some attempt to be a hawt mommy than to be a couch potato! :smooch: Since blonds have more fun, ;) , I will also be eradicating any encroaching gray hairs. Just to finish off the hug properly...I would never-ever disparage use of fins for medical, injury prevention, or even purely self enjoyment reasons. It's just a personal choice for me. I make no judgements. Nose clips however, are fair game... ;)

RE: How much endurance training?

Former Member — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 16:36:37 GMT

:D One size does NOT fit all ... WRT technique, I strongly recommend that you view the movie "Karate Kid" (The first one - the sequels were awful.) The part where the old man makes the kid paint the fence/wash the car is spot-on and is analogous to the way that top T&F programs teach kids various technique skills. -LBJ OK that settles it... Leonard and I vs all comers in the USMS "kumite." Leonard do you want to be Jean Claude van-Damme, or shall I? :D

RE: How much endurance training?

Former Member — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 16:27:10 GMT

I'm conflicted on breaststroke. If you suck at it and you have limited practice time, should you spend scads of time trying to improve it? Perhaps not scads of time, but developing a "decent legal" breaststroke will open up quite a few opportunities. when all your favorite events are clumped too closely together, you can throw in a 400 im (and guarantee a pr)

RE: How much endurance training?

Former Member — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 16:23:28 GMT

I'm not really sure what to do on this issue. I would just like to be able to do a semi-decent 25 *** for my 100 IM. That's my only breaststroke goal at the moment. Aside from working on my underwater push off and streamline, I'm just not sure how to go about achieving that very limited goal with the zillions of things that need correction ... I guess I need a quickie Brendan Hansen/Allen Stark breaststroke clinic ... For a modest fee...I can give you the "poor man's version" in a private lesson ;) ;) ;) you started it!!

RE: How much endurance training?

Former Member — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 16:21:34 GMT

That's an example of how I "examine" my swim training. It's closer to the way training is done in track and field and martial arts than how it's typically done in swimming. Amen. My boring $0.02, said before: I suspect that at top swim programs the theory and methodology of training is of similar quality to that in the top Track programs. However, it has been my observation that, as is the case in T&F, when you get away from the top programs the soundness of the theory and subsequently the training basis deteriorates steeply. Add to it that swimming has a rampant monkey-see-monkey-do mentaility ("Since top swimmer X does it, I should do it too."). One size does NOT fit all and yet we continue to act as though it does. With regard to training, I strongly suggest that anyone with some time (and a high threshold for pain) read Bompa's "Theory and Methodology of Training". Doing so might end many of the "holy wars" that go on here. WRT technique, I strongly recommend that you view the movie "Karate Kid" (The first one - the sequels were awful.) The part where the old man makes the kid paint the fence/wash the car is spot-on and is analogous to the way that top T&F programs teach kids various technique skills. As to coaching: I used to give my racewalkers a copy of "Zen in the Martial Arts" and tell them that once they understood everything in the book, they would no longer need me as a coach. -LBJ

RE: How much endurance training?

Former Member — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 16:16:14 GMT

:thhbbb: :thhbbb: :thhbbb: I agree with George, Swim Stud. I'm sure I've said many times that you have to do some race pace swimming. Of course you have to, for optimum results. This applies especially to sprinters. I'm just saying I'm not sure one can do it 24/7. Some days I don't do it even when I know I should because my tiredness or laziness trumps my knowledge that I should be more Mindful in the exactness of my training and follow Ande's tips more carefully. But I'm not a machine; I'm mostly a middle aged mommy. And even Terry agrees you need both endurance and speed. So right now, I'm just focusing on getting some base swimming fitness back after a bit of lay off. I consider this a vessel/engine building effort, although I do think that excessive endurance is overrated, at least for me. Then, when I have a somewhat better engine, I will bust out my nasty FINS and do some explosive speed training ... along with my SDK training. Sprinting all the non-breaststroke strokes is more fun than just breaststroking. JMHO. :thhbbb: But I'm happy to cheer you on. :applaud: Maybe I'm not sufficiently Mindful because I never did martial arts or dancing when young ... I was too busy swimming. Is this an attempt to draw me out? :thhbbb: I never said race pace was not needed. Forty, you have helped me so much with training :smooch: and have heard of the results. It wasn't you or George that said slow swimming was relatively pointless (I can't recall the thread)...and whoever said it wasn't arguing just opining. I never claim martial arts or dance makes me better at anything. I said maybe it programmed to switch on and off a bit. I merely said that the evidence for my own beliefs is what I've seen and done in the past. Fins and paddles are fine if that is your belief system--it isn't wrong. For me if I use them I will then have to learn to wean off them--so I tend not to bother. I am also not a sprinter though I don't think I am a slouch at a 25 either. Nevertheless I'd rather stretch and practice jumping (possibly balletically) to build exlposive power in my legs (OK now I just need to follow through on that). If I never lift another weight other than that of my body I won't be upset. I have heard many opinions about weight training one of which was... "Don't bother with a gym until you can do a large amount of strength exercises using just you own body." Not saying I 100% agree with this. To me it does seem that for many gym goers however, (good true form) press-ups, pull-ups, leg lifts, squat-thrusts, burpees and the like are just so taxing it's somewhat easier to go to the gym and isolate. There may of course be other benefits of using equipment, rehab, chronic injury avoidance etc. Now if you're doing power lifting as some sort of cross-train then yes you'll need weights. Blimey, where's my kevlar? Lastly your a swimmy-mommy...that's hawter than anything else! So you go swim how fast, and with what equipment you like. :cool: Very truly in my way with the women on this forum, SwimStud *snicker*

RE: How much endurance training?

Former Member — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:33:06 GMT

The muscles should memorize the actions required at high speed not low speed. I think if the body only memorizes in slow motion you wil get slow motion swimming. Yes I agree if you only do slow George. Maybe I should have added that. I do both, and am currently going at speed in the run up to a meet. I know I have to work on some aspects of my stroke, but right now I have planned to go with what I got. Techincal work begins in Feb. :) I do love a long slow mile of breaststroke as a mind cleanser though. My only evidence to support my theory is that nobody turns up for ballet class or jujitsu and goes into a move "at full tilt" first time out. Even once high performance has been accomplished...walking through can be used quite effectively. It's hard to make an adjustment at full speed. So often, breaking down the move and reworking it back up is a great way to improve. Maybe the non impact of swimming changes this a bit. I guess I don't know enough in depth about swimming to be 100% on it. Like I said though, you have to believe in your method; you will definitely fail if you don't. I also remain open to being shown new ideas etc.

RE: How much endurance training?

Former Member — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:20:42 GMT

The muscles should memorize the actions required at high speed not low speed. I think if the body only memorizes in slow motion you wil get slow motion swimming.

RE: How much endurance training?

Former Member — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:14:49 GMT

Rich: I'm not sure anyone swims race pace all the time, especially if it's early in the "season." Even Allen, with his limited yardage, says at this time of year, he's focusing somewhat more on "endurance" stuff. I swam my 3000 last night with no race pace whatsoever. Even did some of that slow and correctly stuff. I'm just focusing on regaining my form somewhat. I remember somone (on the forum here) kind of critiquing (politely) others for swimming long sets at a slow rate. They cited muscle memory learning to go at that pace. I just have a different opinion on that is all. They could have just been goofing though and I was obtuse.

RE: How much endurance training?

Former Member — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:01:30 GMT

So, in essence, a fin-kicking set IMHO trains a muscle-recruitment pattern for a non-essential activity. It probably yields slightly more benefit to your swimming than a weight training session, but not as much as training with the precise neural pattern you'll use in the race. That's an example of an examined approach to swim training. It's closer to the way training is done in track and field and martial arts than how it's typically done in swimming. I present such examples as an alternative to traditional thinking. That doesn't make it an explicit or even implicit criticism of the other way. Without poo-pooing those that use devices. I'm reluctant to use things that I cannot use in a race. I tend to feel that it then becomes a mental barrier too, you have to learn to do without the device or swim without it. JMHO too. Certain activities designed for pain relief or what-not are omitted from this. Terry--I may have not grasped your meaning correctly, or found it a tad ambiguous (probably due to my reading). Are you saying that training with devices is like a martial arts application, or focusing on each tiny aspect of the stroke is like martial arts? I think you meant the latter, but wanted to get an example if it's the former. As I've said dancing and martial arts are in my past. In everything you do there you learn slowly and incrementally until it flows. Then you add power and speed usually quite easily. It's also why I tend to not fully agree with the only swimming at race-pace approach, for myself at least. Swimming correctly, and slowly is not a waste of effort to my mindset. The patterns of movement are being learned. It is not to say anyone is wrong if they feel only race pace is needed. I guess I may have developed a trait for "walk and run" learning however which has given me a mental "switch" that I throw come "game time." My martial arts instructior said I was "a good technician" with my moves. I guess we are all wired differently to a point.--however you train though, you can only take what you believe to work for YOU into the pool. Not believing, or perhaps refusing to belive in anything you're trying to implement is futile. I remain open to a bit of everything.

RE: How much endurance training?

The Fortress — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 12:24:12 GMT

I make no judgements. Nose clips however, are fair game... ;) Always a good policy. :agree: I lost my first nose clip the first time I tried to use it. :rofl: I swam yesterday without one and seemed to go underwater just as far. We'll see how my sinuses hold out the next few weeks. The warm wet weather and ensuing mold are killing me now ... :hug: :hug: :hug:

RE: How much endurance training?

The Fortress — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:54:27 GMT

Add to it that swimming has a rampant monkey-see-monkey-do mentaility ("Since top swimmer X does it, I should do it too."). One size does NOT fit all and yet we continue to act as though it does. With regard to training, I strongly suggest that anyone with some time (and a high threshold for pain) read Bompa's "Theory and Methodology of Training". Doing so might end many of the "holy wars" that go on here.-LBJ LBJ: We are always happy to have your :2cents: and your great humor. Are you saying swimming is a "fad" sport?:rofl: I really, really think the point that "one size does not fit all" is the most accurate thing said on this thread so far. Dave: My breaststroke is perfectly legal, just ugly. At least I've never been DQ'd doing it (only when I'm crawling out of the pool after having lost my goggles). Swimming a 400 IM would yield a PB, to be sure, but it would also insure that I didn't swim another event that day unless I completely cruised it. (No point in that. No fun.) I'll watch you and Terry swim it at Zones instead. And I haven't checked the order of events for Zones yet. I'm just hoping I can even find the time to attend the meet, after all. But, in fact, I will be pissed if the 100 IM and 50 back are "clumped too closely" as they were at the Sprint Classic when I had a sub-par backstroke race. You distance swimmers just have no sympathy for us poor sprinters. :thhbbb: When I swam with my TI-type coach before I joined a team, he told me many things. One was that I should be doing that 2-beat drive/entry thing that Terry does. I wish I could. He also said I would "rock" if I could put in 25,000 a week. That's his prescribed "tipping point." I ain't gonna get there in this decade. I have read that Laura Val trains that much in her decade though. Which perhaps, in part, explains her great times.

RE: How much endurance training?

The Fortress — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:46:41 GMT

What kind of movie are you after Caped.... :eek: How about one with that nice grab start you're doing while simultaneously flirting with the life guards, falling in and subsequently suing the Y? It'll help to have video for the lawsuit, although you may want to leave out the flirting. Can the lifeguard film you, if Mrs. Richjb won't? Some_ girl is dead on.

RE: How much endurance training?

The Fortress — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:37:06 GMT

Is this an attempt to draw me out? :thhbbb: I never said race pace was not needed. Forty, you have helped me so much with training :smooch: and have heard of the results. It wasn't you or George that said slow swimming was relatively pointless (I can't recall the thread)...and whoever said it wasn't arguing just opining. I never claim martial arts or dance makes me better at anything. Lastly your a swimmy-mommy...that's hawter than anything else so you go swim how fast and with what equipment you like. :cool: Very truly, SwimStud *snicker* Just thought you were doing your usual :thhbbb: . :dedhorse: :joker: . I'm sure many, many folks are race pace advocates. My fly friend included. I actually think martial arts or any body awareness activity will probably help swimming. Swimming is a "feel" sport and engine building is not in itself sufficient. It's probably better not to use fins too much, especially if you don't need to. Since you're doing breaststroke mostly and don't have shoulder issues, likely not needed. So why bother? Save the $$. Frankly, as I've said, I mostly use regular fins to save my shoulders,relieve boredom, help with SDKs, and help with the glutes/abs. I also think if fins makes swimming more enjoyable and you don't feel like being Mindful, go for it. To each his own and to each his own swimming goals. I just don't think dissing is necessary. In my own masters experience, which is admittedly virtually nil, most elite/Mindful masters swimmers don't tend to like fins. I was once told, in a joking but not so joking way, that fin users with chronic shoulder issues should get out of the fast lane. Not so nice. I actually don't recall ever touching fins when I was a youngster and more Effortlessly hawt. Tee-hee. And you're right, better to make some attempt to be a hawt mommy than to be a couch potato! :smooch: Since blondes have more fun, ;) , I will also be eradicating any encroaching gray hairs.

RE: How much endurance training?

The Fortress — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:10:34 GMT

When you first practice mindfulness, your brain can handle one thought at a time. As soon as you introduce a 2nd, you usually do neither well. And rather than dwell on what you're doing wrong, focus on what you want to do right. In Breaststroke breathing, head position, direction of movement and timing of movement are all critical. 1) Position - chin barely above the surface and look at the water about six inches in front of your nose...but without really seeing it. 2) Direction - after breathing, extend your head forward - as subtly and smoothly as you can. 3) Timing - have your head arrive in streamline at the exact moment your hands reach full extension. Choose one and focus on it for 8-10 x 25s or 4-5 x 50s. Block out all other thoughts. There are another 10 or 12 focal points worth thinking about in Breaststroke, but this small sample will give you the idea of how fine the detail can get. This is why there are 800 things that can go wrong. I'm conflicted on breaststroke. If you suck at it and you have limited practice time, should you spend scads of time trying to improve it? With all these things to focus on, it appears that it would take significant time and yardage for a stroke overhaul... Or, given time limits, should you forget about it and continue vessel/engine building the strokes you enjoy and excel at? I'm not really sure what to do on this issue. I would just like to be able to do a semi-decent 25 *** for my 100 IM. That's my only breaststroke goal at the moment. Aside from working on my underwater push off and streamline, I'm just not sure how to go about achieving that very limited goal with the zillions of things that need correction ... I guess I need a quickie Brendan Hansen/Allen Stark breaststroke clinic ...

RE: How much endurance training?

The Fortress — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:31:44 GMT

I remember somone (on the forum here) kind of critiquing (politely) others for swimming long sets at a slow rate. They cited muscle memory learning to go at that pace. I just have a different opinion on that is all. They could have just been goofing though and I was obtuse. :thhbbb: :thhbbb: :thhbbb: I agree with George, Swim Stud. I'm sure I've said many times that you have to do some race pace swimming. Of course you have to, for optimum results. This applies especially to sprinters. I'm just saying I'm not sure one can do it 24/7. Some days I don't do it even when I know I should because my tiredness or laziness trumps my knowledge that I should be more Mindful in the exactness of my training and follow Ande's tips more carefully. But I'm not a machine; I'm mostly a middle aged mommy. And even Terry agrees you need both endurance and speed. So right now, I'm just focusing on getting some base swimming fitness back after a bit of lay off. I consider this a vessel/engine building effort, although I do think that excessive endurance is overrated, at least for me. Then, when I have a somewhat better engine, I will bust out my nasty FINS and do some explosive speed training ... along with my SDK training. Sprinting all the non-breaststroke strokes is more fun than just breaststroking. JMHO. :thhbbb: But I'm happy to cheer you on. :applaud: Maybe I'm not sufficiently Mindful because I never did martial arts or dancing when young ... I was too busy swimming. Here's another random thought on endurance training and the relative importance of engine vs. vessel training. At my last meet, I was chatting with a very good flyer. He's completely recovered from shoulder surgery 3 years ago and is churning out unbelievably times even in the 200 fly. He said he has cut his workouts way back and does a lot of race pace sprinting and lots of 25s and has had one of his best years ever. I found this heartening. But I am still amazed he can do a 200 fly without more training. Terry: I'm glad those underwater 25 SDKs are helping then! I kind of thought they were. I do have to agree that using the monofin is akin to a weight workout. I tried to go running Sunday after using the big fin a lot on Saturday and I had total dead leg plods. What about fartlek kicking? Do you think that's of any value? I thought that type of training worked both the aerobic and anaerobic neural/energy pathways. I know a couple very good swimmers that will do 10 minutes continuous fartlek kicking.

RE: How much endurance training?

The Fortress — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:11:21 GMT

I find that fins are useful in 3 ways: - When used to help achieve race pace speed on sprint swim sets - To offset shoulder problems on swim sets I'll often kick instead w/fins - To alleviate boredom I use them for all these reasons too. I like #3 best. :rofl: So do you think fins or fin-kicking or SDK-kicking help with SDKs in races? Rich: I'm not sure anyone swims race pace all the time, especially if it's early in the "season." Even Allen, with his limited yardage, says at this time of year, he's focusing somewhat more on "endurance" stuff. I swam my 3000 last night with no race pace whatsoever. Even did some of that slow and correctly stuff. I'm just focusing on regaining my form somewhat.

RE: How much endurance training?

Paul Smith — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:00:49 GMT

I find that fins are useful in 3 ways: - When used to help achieve race pace speed on sprint swim sets - To offset shoulder problems on swim sets I'll often kick instead w/fins - To alleviate boredom

RE: How much endurance training?

The Fortress — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 08:54:05 GMT

So, in essence, a fin-kicking set IMHO trains a muscle-recruitment pattern for a non-essential activity. It probably yields slightly more benefit to your swimming than a weight training session, but not as much as training with the precise neural pattern you'll use in the race. Terry: Now, as a sprinter, I'm not doing just one dolphin kick off the wall obviously. But I was wondering about this statement. I don't do a lot of stand alone kick sets in practice (unless I'm consigned to it from shoulder issues), but I do quite a bit lot of SDK-kicking for my fly/back sprints on my back or stomach with or without fins/monofin. (BTW, I really feel my "core" and abs more when I put on that monofin!) I notice that on the "nose clip" thread, Frank Thompson stated that he had heard/thought that fin-kicking (I'm assuming this was doing SDKs as he was referring to how far one could go underwater in backstroke) could help with underwater SDK-ing in a race situation. I would particularly think it would help more in sprints than in longer races. But what do you think? No muscle/neural memory from all that SDK-ing? I think Quicksilver also commented on a backstroke thread that there might be some muscle memory value. Also, when you speak of synchronizing the leg drive with the arm spear, are you speaking of kicking with the left leg when the right arm goes in? I have heard that is a very effective "cruiser" technique, but I absolutely can't do it. Not that I've put a lot of time into learning it, as I'm mostly sprinting. But it seems hard to learn.

RE: How much endurance training?

Former Member — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 07:12:38 GMT

. Rich: I think you should use some of that persuasive SwimStud stuff on the wife to persuade her. What kind of movie are you after Caped.... :eek:

RE: How much endurance training?

Former Member — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 07:08:25 GMT

Jeez, Terry, you can be so literal. I've gotten a lot out of kicking with fins, and not much of it (if any) has to do with leg strength or what is neccessarily the obvious point of the activity. I've improved my backstroke walls immensely; gotten great feedback on my head position (the faster I'm moving, the better I can feel where my head out to be); and strengthened my abs using the same movement I need for my fly. Maybe because you swim butterfrog and don't kick hard off the wall, it is better for you practice your two-beat kick when people do the fin set, but as you aren't inside people's heads, I don't know that you can guess the "mindfulness" from the activity. As usual, some_girl has some_thing valid to say. It seems like some_girl was making some of the same points others have made in different threads and here. Fins: great walls, great abs, great fly, great for sprinting, great as a temporary fix or shoulder support. But the real point, and one which most seem to agree upon: using a device is not necessarily unmindful and it's not one size fits all. Rich: I think you should use some of that persuasive SwimStud stuff on the wife to persuade her. If not, maybe Allen can post a video of how it should be done for all you Detesters of Breaststroke.

RE: How much endurance training?

Former Member — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 06:20:37 GMT

Fort and Rich and anyone,if you can post a video I'll make suggestions. I hope to do a vid at some point..Mrs Richjb won't do it though.

RE: How much endurance training?

some_girl — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 01:11:41 GMT