Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

swimmieAvsFan — Mon, 18 Dec 2006 08:41:01 GMT

Should 11-12 year olds be doing 200 fly in prelim/finals meets? Shouldn't that event just be a timed final so they only have to swim it once? I watched a final of that event last night. One girl literally got out of the pool crying at the 150 point. 2 others looked like they might pass out. Only the winner looked happy in a heat of 8, and this was the "A" final. I'd say these kids are being eaten. Boo. i think the Tom Dolan Invitational hosts had it right when they changed all 11-12 200 stroke events to timed finals. there's no reason kids that age should be doing prelims *and* finals for 200 stroke events. i know on the age group team i coach, most of our 11-12 don't even do the 200 stroke events till springtime. even the kids who could survive the event now. with the groups i coach, i luckily don't see too many kids getting eaten, yet... and that makes me happy.

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

The Fortress — Sat, 16 Dec 2006 11:52:27 GMT

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

Former Member — Thu, 14 Dec 2006 17:36:54 GMT

Do they swim the same events? Are they at the same school? Maybe the younger one is in middle school and the older one can shine in high school? I think girls sometimes plateau in their mid-teens. I did, then I subsequently improved. Maybe the 16 year old has a breakthrough coming soon. Is she lifting weights yet? Not at same school, so one does get to shine in HS. No weights yet. Maybe that'll help. I think all growth has stopped though... I hope she doesn't quit.

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

Former Member — Thu, 14 Dec 2006 13:39:04 GMT

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

The Fortress — Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:29:45 GMT

What do you do with this situation? Two teenager girls, three years apart (13, 16). Swim for the same team and same coach. The older one has plateaued, the younger one keeps improving and is actually faster than her sister in some events. The older one is not very happy about swimming because of the lack of improvment, but doesn't want to quit and doesn't know what other sport she would do. How do you keep her motivated? What if she keeps getting more miserable? Do they swim the same events? Are they at the same school? Maybe the younger one is in middle school and the older one can shine in high school? I think girls sometimes plateau in their mid-teens. I did, then I subsequently improved. Maybe the 16 year old has a breakthrough coming soon. Is she lifting weights yet?

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

Former Member — Tue, 12 Dec 2006 17:47:08 GMT

I don't have red hair. But I like it on my avatar. She looks quite comely. And her hair doesn't appear to have chlorine damage. :banana: I dont know any marathoners that wear capes when they run or swim ...:rofl: I am now mild mannered Clark Kent. But I am still going to zing you again. :lolup: First of all, it looks like that mermaid has mascara on. And she's smiling too much. She doesn't look witty and sarcastic. Too goody two shoes. Second, I see to recall from that film noir that she ditched her family and culture for a cute guy. Is this a good message to send to young girls? And she has no mother .... Why is it that in virtually every Disney movie the mother is dead or there is an evil stepmother?! (Snow White, Cinderella, Aladdin, Pocahontas, Bambi, Beauty and the Beast. Sleeping Beauty's mother was so ineffectual, she couldn't get the invitations to the Christening sent out right and Maleficent zinged in. I hope there's a mommy in Happy Feet. I haven't seen that yet. I guesss the dad got offed in Lion King...) This is a good enough reason to ditch that mermaid. I have three other thoughts on theoretically/actually stressed out kids: 1. Since Cruise isn't here, and he seems to be everyone's favorite, I'll substitute a quote for him: "Our earth is degenerate...Childeren no longer obey their parents...The end of the world is evidently approaching." (Ancient Mesopotamian scribe) 2. If childhood is so stressful, why does it last so long? I thought kids were starting to live with their parents until 30. 3. It does seem like some parents push kids who might not want to be Olympians, thus shrinking their childhood and preventing them from climbing trees. Is there any study on the effects of this?

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

Former Member — Tue, 12 Dec 2006 14:14:55 GMT

Which brings up another topic: should there be a minimum age requirement for Worlds or the Olympics? There is, for example, in figure skating. Competitors must have turned 15 the July before the Olympics or Worlds to be eligible. So basically they need to be pushing 16 by the time the actual competition rolls around. Kind of strange considering the public perception of figure skating is that it's dominated by really young athletes. My opinion is age limits like this are not a good idea. If someone is that good that young they deserve the chance to compete at the highest level. Especially something like the Olympics which only comes around every four years. If they're ready to rock and roll, let them become rock stars. You only live twice.

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

Former Member — Tue, 12 Dec 2006 14:13:24 GMT

One coach (no longer there) gave my son's team a 75x100 set and left the deck for the duration of the set. 5700 pull was another. Absolutely ridiculous. Is this for real? I realize kids need to train hard to succeed, but this seem pointless. :shakeshead:

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

FlyQueen — Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:29:53 GMT

If they're ready to rock and roll, let them become rock stars. You only live twice. For gymnastics the gymnast must turn 16 in the year of the Olympics ... But for as many burn out stories as there are there are also success stories, just as for every training "rule" there is an exception (think every stroke breathing on fly by Phelps or less yardage by Coughlin) On the partying front, swimming hung over is not so much fun ... it makes flip turns interesting. My teammates and I are fans of trying a shot realy, do a shot swim to the other end, do another shot swim back ... you know a few of those ... that'd be interesting, probably messy though ... The goal of some sets is building mental and physical toughness, they probably are pointless, but I'm guessing that is the goal, as well as endurance, not saying I agree ... As for the hangover cure ... Vitamin Water has a purpleish one that is "Revive" actually made to cure hangovers, depending on how fun the night before was it make take more than one bottle ... NKFrench, were you referring to Dana Vollmer? She seems like she is back in great form, and ready to serve notice in Melbourne, good luck to her! As for the burn out ... I don't think there is one right or wrong answer ... some kids will burn out, others won't and will win Olympic medals as teens (Beard, Peirsol, Sandeno, Munz, Bennett, Quann-Jendrick, and on and on) then keep on going and going and going ... it goes back to my same old theory of the coach needing to know their swimmers, who to push and when and how much and how far, who is really hurt and who isn't and on and on ... When I coached gymnastics it did not take long to realize which kids I needed to "hand hold" through things to get them to do it and which kids I needed to say, "Get your butt on that beam and do it NOW!" to. On the same day I had one girl I had to spot on beam and she finally went and she gave me a huge hug and another where I did actually tell her to go now or to leave, she went she did her skill (a tough dismount) perfectly and was mad at me of course, but she needed that kick in the ***, both girls were about the same age, about the same level of talent and ability ...

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

m2tall2 — Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:55:34 GMT

It sounds like we can actually agree on a couple points with this. Some kids get pushed way too hard and burn out. Some kids don't have the opportunity OR don't get pushed hard enough by coaches and never get to the level they personally want to be at. Some kids need a fitness swimming outlet. Some need a mild-moderately competitive outlet. Some really want and need that extra dose of working out to make the goals they know they want. It seems like what really needs to happen here to prevent burnout is kids need to be put in the appropriate group for their goals. Just because you are lightening fast doesn't been you want to be on the elite team. Just because you are moderate speed doesn't mean you don't want to get to the elite team. It sounds like a whole lot more communication between the swimmers, coaches, and parents at the beginning of the season would do a whole lot of good in preventing burnout. Some coaches do this but likely not nearly enough. What it seems like is you have to be on a team that suits your goals rather than go into the correct program on the same team. Many kids don't have a choice on the team they end up on unless they are already a superstar. They go to the local team where it's easy for parents to drop them off and pick them up. They're told, that's the team you swim on or you can't swim. Or, their friends are on that team, so if they leave in persuit of their individual goals, they are traitors. If that team doesn't have an outlet for the different levels and goals of swimmers, there is a high liklihood of either frustration or burnout. It sounds like more programs with different tracks (fitness, competition, national/elite) for all ages and a goal setting process at the beginning of each season with a status report halfway though would be the optimum for younger swimmers. If only those types of teams weren't few and far between and cost a fortune. (At least around here.) There.:2cents: Now, off to swim...

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

Former Member — Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:45:00 GMT

... NKFrench, were you referring to Dana Vollmer? She seems like she is back in great form, and ready to serve notice in Melbourne, good luck to her! Yes. Dana seems to be doing quite well. At a recent college invitational she swam some lifetime bests to get NCAA automatic cuts. She has struggled with more adversity in her swim career (mono, back/shoulder injuries, reconstructed knee ACL, heart radio ablation, and symptoms of Long Q-T syndrome; the 50-minute drive each way to practice for 2-a-days) than most of us face in a lifetime. Sometimes the adversities and downtime let you reflect on what you want, and this is all her choice to continue. The international competition landscape in the 200 Free (her Olympic individual event) will be very different in 2008 and who knows what can happen between today and then. Her brother is also an extremely talented swimmer, but did not have the goal of being an elite swimmer. His heart is with karate, where he is a black belt and began his own studio business in high school. He is a good example of how things work out best when the kid gets in a program that match his goals. It can be hard - the fitness/high school group would not be able to challenge him in practices; yet the elite/senior group had attendance commitments that exceeded what he wanted to put in.

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

Former Member — Tue, 12 Dec 2006 06:01:53 GMT

2. If childhood is so stressful, why does it last so long? I thought kids were starting to live with their parents until 30. For many this is a financially/econimcally enforced choice. For others, they want to spend their days in the parent's basement playing video games. Me I was out at 21, not just out but across the Atlantic living in NY and tying the knot. Today however, you can't get a job filing without a degree, you have to go to school, so if Mom n Pop can't pay that means scholarships, loans or dancing your way through law school. I probably won't be able to pay for 4 years x 2 kids. SO they will be offered a virtually rentfree abode to stay until they pay off any debts. Forget about trying to buy a house...at least up in the NE anyhow.

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

Former Member — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 17:54:29 GMT

Glenn, You are correct that the sport should be fun and kids should be exposed to different physical activities while growing up......... HOWEVER...... this does not lead to better training and aerobic advancement over time at a national level. Pick a sport for pleasure or general physical fitness.... but don't expect talent to overcome lack of training over time when other kids are truly hammering out yardage at a young age. Certainly, quality of training and coaching are paramount, but the fact is, no 14 year old is going to make the top 10 national rankings in their age group in Swimming World magazine if he/she isn't pounding out some early yardage. I have heard several college coaches complain in recent years that kids coming out of highschool don't have the "base" in training yardage they once did in the late 1970s and mid 1980s. The coaches have to spend several years to try and catch them up to where they should be..... if this is even possible by the age of 18 and 19. I hate to say it, but if you don't do a decent amount of yardage (particularly long course) when you are young (9-14) you will have MCUH more difficulty rising to the top of the sport. Then again, if you are just in it for the fun and the general physical fitness...... so be it. John Smith

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

Former Member — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 15:28:43 GMT

I'm told that a double dose of accelerade and 2 excederin with caffeine is good for hangovers. (See how short my posts are getting? If they were as long as others, I'd be at 5,000 by now.) Hangover cure: @ botles of gatorade, 1 red-bull, 2 cups black coffee, 1 greasy fried something. Not that I'd know about hangovers...or anything...athough I did drunkenlly sprint into the Med once at around 2am to rescue a drowing airmattress.

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

Former Member — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 15:23:28 GMT

Okay, Some Guy, I did have one of these experiences of partying, but it wasn't MY idea. It was a swimmer whose initials sound like BS but aren't, and the memories made were I got sick on a 200 back the next day because of it!! My parents were livid that this champion didn't take better care of me!!! But, see? the good thing is it is a memory of mine so swimming has prevented dementia. But back to it......I was in good enough condition thanks to yardage and weights that I came back strong the meet after that one!!! Donna

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

Former Member — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 15:06:23 GMT

It has been mentioned to me by other swimmers that we can be quite the party or rowdy crowd. :dunno:what? little ole us? Donna No kidding, smarty pants. Swimmers are notorious for this stuff. I recall hearing stories of all night partying and then betting who could swim the fastest 500 free. I wasn't doing this of course. I was only friends with these cool dudes while participating in another challenging endurance activity. Maybe partying helps them blow off steam and not get burned out?

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

Former Member — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 15:01:42 GMT

Fortress, Smarty-pants is good. My mom was thrilled that I found swimming and devoted my body and soul to it because it kept me away from "boys." This was the one thing I chose not to participate in: puppy love until I met my goals. My parents were thrilled; to them this made me the golden one (HA, if they only knew what us swimmers got into, but I never kiss and tell.) It has been mentioned to me by other swimmers that we can be quite the party or rowdy crowd. :dunno:what? little ole us? Donna

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

Former Member — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 14:31:19 GMT

I dont know any marathoners that wear capes when they run or swim ... No me either it's always bright coloured T-back Speedo's...:D

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

Glenn — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:19:13 GMT

Sprinter Girl, I spent my first two years in HS in Newark, NJ then we moved to Westfield, NJ a town of maybe 25,000 at the time. Westfield was maybe 20 minutes from Newark and considered the suburbs. We moved there because of swimming. Swimming was big in Westifeld. Some of my teammates swam age group and thru college. I never even heard of age group swimming until we moved to Westfield at age 15. We trained from mid November to March when we had the state meet - that was it. No weight training, no year round, no summer (and no goggles). I suspect we may have even been better if we had gone year round but I probably wouldn't be swimming and with so much joy today. Glenn Gruber:)

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

Former Member — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:11:19 GMT

Not me, Santa. :rofl: I only get huffy when someone insults my user name or my fly technique. :rofl: Now, if someone insults my avatar, I might get really cross ... In my examined reading of the fine purple prose on this forum, however, I think men may be huffy too. I don't know any swimmers with red hair ... Zing. :lolup: Men are more smart alecky than huffy, but I will admit that I am generalizing and there are notable exceptions here on this forum. Isn't the failure to be either huffy, smart alecky or humorous very un-forumish? My young was eaten today by a super tough 2 hour workout.

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

Muppet — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:23:20 GMT

Love is a many hangover thing .... i feel a song coming on... I drank till I Stumbled I drank till i fell When The drunk part was over it hurt me like hell now i know about drinkin so i know one things true bein drunk's a lot like lovin you God Bless Kenny Chesney!:groovy:

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

dorothyrde — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:11:39 GMT

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

The Fortress — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 10:26:00 GMT

I'm told that a double dose of accelerade and 2 excederin with caffeine is good for hangovers. (See how short my posts are getting? (If they were as long as others, I'd be at 5,000 by now.) Love is a many hangover thing ....

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

The Fortress — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 10:21:54 GMT

It kept me away from "boys." This was the one thing I chose not to participate in: puppy love until I met my goals. I never kiss and tell.Donna Ha, it only worked for a little while though! Then someone else ratted you out. :rofl: :dedhorse:

RE: Is Swimming Eating Its Young?

The Fortress — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 09:53:29 GMT

Actually, I would rather do a short distances IM set, or a set of ~200s or less free working on speed pacing rahter than do 300s, 400s, 500s... not that I don't mind doing the occasional 500 during a practice or anything... As for the monotonousness, some weeks I just want do do something other than get in a pool, you know?:banana: Amen to that. I'm going to life weights now. :dedhorse: :dedhorse: :D