scy vs lcm

RE: scy vs lcm

Former Member — Thu, 07 Dec 2006 14:48:14 GMT

Ok my newbie butt wants to interject something... :o) I'm still coming to terms with my crawl. I clicked a bit lastnight wen I figured out that b/c of working on streamlining and rolling--I was not thinking about my kicks I was doing rapid little kicks...I felt this going on and though wait a second...there's no power there...so I slowed the pace of the kicks and opened my legs more...I took off and really felt it all come together (it was a "ray of lightthrough the clouds" kind of good). then I had to turn b/c I am at the wall in a 25yrd pool. After the (open/bob) turn it all went wrong and I had to re-click it. If I didn't have to turn, I would have gone 100 yards, easily, the stop and turn messed my ryhthm and breathing. I can only assume that turns will affect a good crawler even if only a slight bit. No? Sorry for not being 100% on topic..just thought I'd share that thought though...damn wall:frustrated:

RE: scy vs lcm

Allen Stark — Thu, 07 Dec 2006 12:33:21 GMT

I love LCM and dislike SCY. 50 SCY *** it'shard for me to get into a rhythm before the wall gets in the way. Also in *** the taller swimmer has an advantage on the turns. You get one pulldown,one dolphin kick and one whip kick underwater so long arms and legs can be an advantage,not to mention that with long arms they don't have to swim as far. In free the underwater phase is relatively less important than in back and fly as underwater dolphin is not significantly faster than surface free for many freestylers,therefor they take about 3 dolphins off the wall to hold the push-off speed before breaking the surface. Since the underwater part is less important,a taller freestyler will have an advantage SCY as the just don't have to swim as far,an advantage that is magnified by flip turns. The shorter swimmer can mitigate this by going further underwater and pushing off harder,but is still playing catch-up.

RE: scy vs lcm

knelson — Thu, 07 Dec 2006 12:29:48 GMT

2. I believe your stroke technique has to be better and hold up in the races. Leg conditioning is just as important as for short course turns because if your legs die and stop working for your kick, you will be swimming one dimensional and this will make your body feel more verticle instead of horizontal causing stroke flaws and fatigue. That's for sure. I've had my legs die in a LC 100 m free and that pool becomes really, really long!

RE: scy vs lcm

bbpolhill — Thu, 07 Dec 2006 09:14:49 GMT

This is insulting. A substantial part of swimming is starts and turns. Unless meets are going to be held in an endless pool from this point on, you cannot ignore the importance of all aspects of a swimming race. If you can't start and have sorry turns, you probably won't be a great swimmer. The first thing I did to shave serious time off my events was dramatically improve my turns. I don't think Terry was trying to be insulting. I think what he was saying was that successful short course swimmers who cannot duplicate their success in long course meters are simply more skilled than their peers at starts and turns and perhaps less efficient than them at straight swimming. This echoes my opinion that swimmers who are better short course than long course are better at swimming under water, since this is where most of the start and turns are swum. My daughter is a perfect example. She is a 5' sprinter swimming against 5'8" and up girls. She can beat them in a short course pool, but rarely beats them in long course. She has a tremendous under water dolphin kick and usually surfaces a good 1/2 body length to a full body length ahead despite being significantly shorter. While she is technically as good a swimmer as any of her peers, she cannot be as efficient because of the height disadvantage. She simply has to take more strokes to get across the length of the pool. You're definitely right that people do tend to ignore the importance of starts and turns and that there is a tremendous opportunity to shave time by improving both.

RE: scy vs lcm

The Fortress — Thu, 07 Dec 2006 09:13:12 GMT

RE: scy vs lcm

bbpolhill — Thu, 07 Dec 2006 08:52:24 GMT

Brad: Plus I have to disagree with your assessement that Ryan is a better in Short Course IM than Michael... However, Ryan did break the month old Phelps's 200 IM record of 1:41.30 with a time of 1:40.55. My comment was that I would guess that Ryan would beat Michael in a short course yard 200 IM. If he broke his record by nearly a full second within a month, then I would say he would stand a pretty good chance. I did not make a comment about the 400 IM which requires more "above the water" swimming than the 200 since staying under water for long periods of time creates oxygen deprivation which would severely hinder your performance at the end of a long race. The point is Ryan can make up for a lack of height and perhaps "above the water" swimming ability when compared with Michael Phelps because of his tremendous under water ability. This can be achieved because of the ratio of under water to above the water is inverted when comparing LCM to SCY. I keep seeing that people say they feel that short course causes less fatigue than long course because of the rest on the turns. I think that it all depends on how you approach your turns and your race. If you don't create that much oxygen deprivation on the turns, resurface quickly, and don't maximize your under water kicking then you probably will be less fatigued. Certainly your arms will have more rest. My feeling, however, is that if you maximize your under water you do create oxygen deprivation that will cause your muscles to fail to respond. So either way, you need to strive to find the correct balance between under water and straight swimming and my guess is that everybody optimizes using different approaches for each individual.

RE: scy vs lcm

aquageek — Thu, 07 Dec 2006 08:02:55 GMT

They're better at starts and turns than swimming. This is insulting. A substantial part of swimming is starts and turns. Unless meets are going to be held in an endless pool from this point on, you cannot ignore the importance of all aspects of a swimming race. If you can't start and have sorry turns, you probably won't be a great swimmer. The first thing I did to shave serious time off my events was dramatically improve my turns.

RE: scy vs lcm

Frank Thompson — Thu, 07 Dec 2006 01:34:38 GMT

My comment was that I would guess that Ryan would beat Michael in a short course yard 200 IM. If he broke his record by nearly a full second within a month, then I would say he would stand a pretty good chance. I did not make a comment about the 400 IM which requires more "above the water" swimming than the 200 since staying under water for long periods of time creates oxygen deprivation which would severely hinder your performance at the end of a long race. The point is Ryan can make up for a lack of height and perhaps "above the water" swimming ability when compared with Michael Phelps because of his tremendous under water ability. This can be achieved because of the ratio of under water to above the water is inverted when comparing LCM to SCY. I keep seeing that people say they feel that short course causes less fatigue than long course because of the rest on the turns. I think that it all depends on how you approach your turns and your race. If you don't create that much oxygen deprivation on the turns, resurface quickly, and don't maximize your under water kicking then you probably will be less fatigued. Certainly your arms will have more rest. My feeling, however, is that if you maximize your under water you do create oxygen deprivation that will cause your muscles to fail to respond. So either way, you need to strive to find the correct balance between under water and straight swimming and my guess is that everybody optimizes using different approaches for each individual. I would agree that it would be a guess and speculation about Ryan beating Michael in a 200 Yard IM. Unless they race in this format, which I don't believe has happened in the last 5 years, its hard to analyze who would be having what advantage in both underwater swimming and surface swimming. Race conditions sometimes dictate how a person swims in the races. When Phelps did that 1:41.30 in Austin last year, it was the last event of the meet after he set 2 American Records. He basically had no one pushing him in this event and the 200 Fly and 400 IM. So you never know what would happen in racing conditions and all we can do is speculate and guess. In watching Michael Phelps swim both in a practice and in a meet I believe one of his strengths in his swimming compared to others is his turns and underwater breakouts before swimming to the surface. He is an absolute expert in Fly and IM events when I have seen him. And it doesn't matter if its a 200 IM or 400 IM. I will give you an example of this and I think most people here will remember the race I am talking about because I believe Michael Phelps had one of the best turns and breakouts that I have ever seen a swimmer do. The race was the 400 IM at the 2002 Nationals in Fort Lauderdale. He was racing Eric Vendt, who was ahead of him going into the 350 turn and at that wall Micheal did a turn and his dolphin kick and breakout was tremendous. He was a body length behind going in and a body length ahead coming out of the breakout. He ended up out touching Vendt at the wall for the win for his first World Record in the 400 IM breaking the mark by Tom Dolan. In fact Eric Vendt broke the World Record also. The point I am making in this is that everyone needs to find a correct balance between there underwater swimming and the straight surface swimming based on there ability and technique. Michael proved in this one race that it can be done in a 400 just as well as a 200. Now I know this was Long Course as opposed to Short Course but some swimmers can do this and not have oxgen deprivation and not be more fatigued. When they maximize there underwater swimming, there muscles don't fail to respond and they resurface swimming pretty fast to the finish. Also another race that comes to mind is the 200 Fly at last years Pan Pacific Championships in Canada. Micheal was behind those 2 Japanese swimmers and came up a body length ahead after the 150 turn.

RE: scy vs lcm

Former Member — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 12:35:29 GMT

I think I read that article too. is this it? Very interesting reading. www.usaswimming.org/.../ViewMiscArticle.aspx thats it. thanks!

RE: scy vs lcm

Former Member — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 12:33:36 GMT

wasn't there a recent thread (tried to find it) that attached an article form the usas website comparing the ratios of swimming to turning for scy and lcm. i think the question posed was something like "what can one do while training in scy to prepare for lcm competition?" i wish we had an indoor 50 in my county! I think I read that article too. is this it? Very interesting reading. www.usaswimming.org/.../ViewMiscArticle.aspx

RE: scy vs lcm

Former Member — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:46:47 GMT

I try to swim both each week and find lcm to be much harder than scy. For me, the difference is definitely the turns. wasn't there a recent thread (tried to find it) that attached an article form the usas website comparing the ratios of swimming to turning for scy and lcm. i think the question posed was something like "what can one do while training in scy to prepare for lcm competition?" i wish we had an indoor 50 in my county!

RE: scy vs lcm

Former Member — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 08:53:38 GMT

I can only report on what I see and hear from my age group daughter who swims both. She tells me that LCM is more relaxing, that she has time to focus on her stroke, rather than SCY where the turns and quick reflexes win out. She hates Short Course, loves Long Course, and really loves Open Water. I think it's mind set and personality myself.

RE: scy vs lcm

Former Member — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 07:30:56 GMT

I agree with the previous comments and additionally in the scy, there is more turns. During each turn you hold your breath, which might cause more fatique. On the other hand, more turns means less strokes (push-off from the wall). This means better leg-conditioning is essential. As a last point, more turns means holding a constant stroke rate is harder.

RE: scy vs lcm

Former Member — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 07:15:59 GMT

other than turns, what makes someone better at one or the other? Great question. I've yet to figure it out. My personal experience is that I feel I have to be in much, much better shape to handle LCM. I just feel that there's nowhere to hide, no walls to rest on. I feel a 100 IM or a 100 Fly SCY is much easier to swim than a 100 IM or Fly LCM. That goes double for 200s. I've yet to even try the 200 Fly LCM as an adult as my SCY swim was so poor. I feel your stroke technique has to be better in LCM where in SCY you can get away with an okay stroke and awesome turns. I have the opportunity to swim with Eric Shanteau's mom at our local pool. She always says that Eric is better in long course as he's a better *swimmer* as opposed to some of his world class opponents who can beat him in SCY due to their better "turning" ability. :2cents:

RE: scy vs lcm

Former Member — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 07:09:53 GMT

I guess that a tall person would be better in a lcm pool than in a scy, but may be that would also has to do with the type of pool you are used to swim in as your endurance is made according it.:agree: ??

RE: scy vs lcm

Former Member — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 07:06:42 GMT

Warren, I'll bet you will get lots of advice/experiences on this one. For me, my backstroke swims felt better in short course and my times were faster. But in long course, my freestyle fared much better than short course. I'll think about it and see if I can figure it out. But when these swims were taking place, I couldn't figure it out then, either. Maybe it had something to do with the turns taking more energy from me in long course freestyle, and the turns in backstroke short course aided me. Maybe I was on my way to truly being a distance freestyle swimmer and just didn't realize it back then, so this may be why the long course felt better in freestyle. That my new calling was trying to surface itself. Hmmmmmm... Donna

RE: scy vs lcm

Frank Thompson — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 06:48:33 GMT

Resting on turns may make you feel better, but it doesn't necessarily enhance your overall performance. Re: more swimming between turns... That is my point. The advantage in short course goes to the faster under water swimmer, while the advantage in long course goes to the faster "stroke swimmer". It is simple mathematics, in my opinion. Hypothetically, if 2 swimmers are equal in terms of their ability "above the water", then the person who can swim faster under water will win. Furthermore, that advantage is increased if you can swim longer under water which you are allowed to do in a short course event. The contrary is true as well. I am sure that Michael had other goals that he wished to pursue (just threw that out there for people to chew on), but IM is one of his signature events and he had a lot more to lose if he lost that event vs. events that hold lower expectations for him. I would have been interested to see the head to head in short course, though, especially after seeing how great the long course duel was. Nevertheless, your point about Michael taking on challenges is 100% on the money. Brad: Last year, Michael Phelps chose to swim in the American SCY Championships as his peak meet and then go into his mesocycle for Nationals and Pan Pacific Championships. Because he is an assistant coach of the Univ. of Michigan team, he attends the NCAA Championship and does very little swimming leading up to that week. Because Short Course World Championships in Shanghai were right after NCAA's this was not feasible for him to swim. Plus he was starting his mesocycle for the other events. On the other hand, Ryan Lochte swam and was peaked for NCAA's and Shanghai Worlds because they were only a week after. Plus I have to disagree with your assessement that Ryan is a better in Short Course IM than Michael. Last year Michael Phelps broke both American Records in the 200 and 400 IM at the Austin meet. He broke the 11 year old record in the 400 IM by Tom Dolan of 3:38.18 with a 3:36.26 and that is still the American Record. Ryan Lochte did a 3:38.15 at the NCAA Championship meet to break Dolan's record but not Phelp's. However, Ryan did break the month old Phelps's 200 IM record of 1:41.30 with a time of 1:40.55. To me this sounds like a wash and neither swimmers having an advantage in the Short Course format. Plus as I watched both races this summer (Nationals & Pan Pacifics) I did not get the impression that either swimmer had that much better turns then the other in the Long Course races. I do agree with your assessment about the swimming between the walls. They always say that world-class swimmers prefer Long Course swimming, which they consider a better test of swimming ability compared with Short Course racing, which they view as more like a gymnastic events because of the somersaults consisting mainly of turning and a great deal of underwater kicking. Because the Olympics and World Championships has a history and tradition of being Long Course, they prefer these prestigious events to other Short Course events. Plus until about 15 years ago, there really was not an international comparision because the USA swam Short Course Yards and the rest of the world swam Short Course Meters. That being said I will add to the comments of why I think Long Course is more challenging than Short Course. 1. I believe you must be in better condition for Long Course swimming. There are no walls to rest on and you must swim more thus resulting in fatigue. The futher you swim in Long Course, the less energy you have for turns making that a disadvantage for the Short Course swimmer. 2. I believe your stroke technique has to be better and hold up in the races. Leg conditioning is just as important as for short course turns because if your legs die and stop working for your kick, you will be swimming one dimensional and this will make your body feel more verticle instead of horizontal causing stroke flaws and fatigue. 3. Some swimmers are very powerful swimmers and they can use there strength better in Short Course than in Long Course because they can have more energy to attack the walls because of less fatigue and will not have to have the better swim technique for surface swimming because they do much less of it. 4. The swimmer that has the better technique above the water and has better endurance usually is the better Long Course swimmer. This assumes that the swimmer does not generate as much power as other swimmers in turns and in underwater breakouts and swims faster than the power swimmer on the surface.

RE: scy vs lcm

knelson — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 06:27:32 GMT

Here is a post from another thread that addresses this topic: Two reasons 1) You may have noticed how submarines are shaped - not especially long, nor sleek. Not very hydrodynamic on the surface but highly so when submerged 2) The underwater dolphin works best at high cycle rates. Tall swimmers with longer body sections to articulate can find it more difficult to match the rates achieved by shorter swimmers - think Misty Hyman vs some of the willowy 6-footers you see so often at Nationals in the LA strokes. I'll buy 2, but not 1 on this issue.

RE: scy vs lcm

The Fortress — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 05:53:20 GMT

I don't understand this. A tall swimmer should be at an advantage underwater, too. Here is a post from another thread that addresses this topic: Two reasons 1) You may have noticed how submarines are shaped - not especially long, nor sleek. Not very hydrodynamic on the surface but highly so when submerged 2) The underwater dolphin works best at high cycle rates. Tall swimmers with longer body sections to articulate can find it more difficult to match the rates achieved by shorter swimmers - think Misty Hyman vs some of the willowy 6-footers you see so often at Nationals in the LA strokes. I actually prefer LCM even though I'm a short sprinter. I'm not a great turner. But I do like the underwater part of SCY or SCM, and that saves me. I find I get into more of a rhythm long course.

RE: scy vs lcm

bbpolhill — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 04:28:45 GMT

I think Kristina is right on you can really rest on turns and in LCM there's a lot more swimming between turns ... Resting on turns may make you feel better, but it doesn't necessarily enhance your overall performance. Re: more swimming between turns... That is my point. The advantage in short course goes to the faster under water swimmer, while the advantage in long course goes to the faster "stroke swimmer". It is simple mathematics, in my opinion. Hypothetically, if 2 swimmers are equal in terms of their ability "above the water", then the person who can swim faster under water will win. Furthermore, that advantage is increased if you can swim longer under water which you are allowed to do in a short course event. The contrary is true as well. I am sure that Michael had other goals that he wished to pursue (just threw that out there for people to chew on), but IM is one of his signature events and he had a lot more to lose if he lost that event vs. events that hold lower expectations for him. I would have been interested to see the head to head in short course, though, especially after seeing how great the long course duel was. Nevertheless, your point about Michael taking on challenges is 100% on the money.

RE: scy vs lcm

bbpolhill — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 04:02:09 GMT

I don't understand this. A tall swimmer should be at an advantage underwater, too. I would have thought so also. But, on several occassions I have read that the shorter swimmer is at an advantage. Wish I could cite some sources. If I find any I will post. I am sure there are diminishing returns in either direction along the height scale. Regardless, the point is that a major reason for performance variance between long course and short course is under water proficiency. Who is predisposed to this is probably mostly an individual thing any way.

RE: scy vs lcm

FlyQueen — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 04:00:15 GMT

I always feel out of shape when I start swimming LCM, I think Kristina is right on you can really rest on turns and in LCM there's a lot more swimming between turns ... I've also heard LCM is for swimmers and SCY is for turners, but let's be honest the best of the best still have darn good turns. Phelps never swam college so I'm wondering if that would have helped his turns, his focus has always been LCM. I also don't think he didn't do SCM world champs because he was afraid of Lochte, Phelps has never backed off of racing the best in the world, he isn't afraid to come up short. Hence the 200 free in Athens, and the 400 in Montreal.

RE: scy vs lcm

knelson — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 03:41:49 GMT

In addition, many experts have pointed out that swimming under water is a shorter person's advantage while swimming, in general, favors the taller person. I don't understand this. A tall swimmer should be at an advantage underwater, too.

RE: scy vs lcm

bbpolhill — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 03:22:03 GMT

An examination of the two best IMers in the world might yield one possible answer: under water proficiency. My guess is that, with both at peak performance, Ryan Lochte (arguably the best under water swimmer in the world) would beat Michael Phelps in a Short Course Yard 200 IM (is that why Michael skipped short course championships?), while Michael has an edge in the 200 LCM. There are more opportunities to swim under water in a SCY event than in a LCM event thus creating an advantage for the better under water swimmer. In a 200 yard race (short course), a swimmer can legally swim almost 66 % (131 yards) of the race under water, while a swimmer can only legally swim 30% (60 meters) of a 200 meter long course meter race under water. In addition, many experts have pointed out that swimming under water is a shorter person's advantage while swimming, in general, favors the taller person.

RE: scy vs lcm

aquageek — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 02:55:20 GMT

I try to swim both each week and find lcm to be much harder than scy. For me, the difference is definitely the turns.