EVF Teaching

RE: EVF Teaching

Former Member — Tue, 02 Oct 2007 11:18:24 GMT

Can you effectively work on an EVF in the pool without all the static and isometric exercises? Will the RC exercises help on that score? I haven't really focused on the EVF issue much, since I'm not really a freestyler, except for the occasional 50 or 100. However, whenever I've briefly tried EVF in practice on a sprint, it does seem to produce superior propulsion. And I don't think I'm doing it enough, although it's so hard to tell ... But I am also burdened with shoulder issues and very squeamish about putting any strain on the shoulder. Of course, I have read that a strong finish, and not just the catch, can strain the shoulder too. So what is it exactly in freestyle that injures the shoulder? The catch? The finish? The straight arm pull? The straight arm recovery? Why is it conventional wisdom that paddles will hurt your shoulder, but not the techpaddle? Thanks guys for the input..I found a pair of forearm fulcrums locally,so I bought a pair..The techpaddle looks good too..I'm just a novice trying to improve my stroke so any training aid will probably help..I have weak shoulders too and have been working on them dryland for a year..A useful resource that I use is the Exrx muscle and exercise directory at www.exrx.net I click on weight training,then the directory..It shows muscles in red and exercises for all muscles..It seems to me that the straight arm pull is what makes the shoulders sore..pressure on the rotator cuff..I work cuff,delts,traps,legs,core,and back 3 times/week...I'm just experimenting with exs that will support this swim training cycle for 12 weeks..or more.. Thanks for the input..I read this site daily..It's a big help.. Edit: Thanks for the p/m Tomtopo...The forum would not accept a reply to it...FYI..

RE: EVF Teaching

Former Member — Mon, 01 Oct 2007 15:17:41 GMT

I have studied the Tech Paddle to see how they work. It does everything it says it will do. If you look closely it is an almost perfect front crawl stroke. If you do not stroke properly the arms go all over the place. I cannot see how you would get sore shoulders or even sore muscles by using them.

RE: EVF Teaching

Former Member — Mon, 01 Oct 2007 12:37:53 GMT

I turn my had outward to 1:30-2:00 (clock face) w/ respect to my wrist, and downward to about 8:00 w/ respect to pool bottom. I feel more water coursing under my forearm with the turnout and I think the downward helps with the transition to catch. Opinions, prevailing wisdom, etc? Thanks in advance.

RE: EVF Teaching

The Fortress — Mon, 01 Oct 2007 10:39:47 GMT

EVF training must be slow for a number of reasons. First, it's extremely difficult to achieve this very technical skill. Second, the small weak muscles necessary to keep the elbow ahead while the hand catches-up and moves underneath it, aren't incorporated if a fast motion occurs (larger muscles take over). So, it's very very difficult to learn the proper catch or EVF by swimming fast. The development of a habit takes a lot of repetition. EVF training equipment and training strategies focus on the specific shoulder muscles (relatively small and weak) and train them to become stronger. Static (no motion) and isometrics (tensing without motion) focus only on the muscles it's incorporating. Can you effectively work on an EVF in the pool without all the static and isometric exercises? Will the RC exercises help on that score? I haven't really focused on the EVF issue much, since I'm not really a freestyler, except for the occasional 50 or 100. However, whenever I've briefly tried EVF in practice on a sprint, it does seem to produce superior propulsion. And I don't think I'm doing it enough, although it's so hard to tell ... But I am also burdened with shoulder issues and very squeamish about putting any strain on the shoulder. Of course, I have read that a strong finish, and not just the catch, can strain the shoulder too. So what is it exactly in freestyle that injures the shoulder? The catch? The finish? The straight arm pull? The straight arm recovery? Why is it conventional wisdom that paddles will hurt your shoulder, but not the techpaddle?

RE: EVF Teaching

Former Member — Sun, 30 Sep 2007 09:19:51 GMT

Hi Tomtopo.. I need to develop EVF and wondered if you have an opinion on the Techpaddle product compared to the Finis forward fulcrum..also would either accelerate the development faster than suggested drills..are there any downsides to the equipment and do you know of any other products to assist.. Thanks for any info that you might provide..

RE: EVF Teaching

Former Member — Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:30:23 GMT

I did try this EVF yesterday. I must say I do not know if I applied it correctly. The feeling was that it put significant strain on my shoulder. For the other aspect of this method, I could not tell.

RE: EVF Teaching

Former Member — Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:25:56 GMT

Probably most people will understand best with the informal description that a sculling motion is a sideways motion while a pull is a backwards motion. Well explained. Now I understand. Thanks LindsayNB. Your information is always very helpful.

RE: EVF Teaching

Former Member — Wed, 13 Dec 2006 07:53:16 GMT

EVF is another word for the catch. Every swimmer needs it if they want to efficeintly move themself through the water. It's not something that shouldn't be shared by both the novice and the elite. It's the basis of effective propulsion. Shoulder problems are caused by many things but the catch shouldn't be one of them. Soft shoulder injury and impingement is often associated with a straight arm pushing water down and when the arm exits the water. Look at the shoulder injury threads. "I wonder if the early vertical forearm caused Grant Hacketts shoulder injury that needed surgery early this year. There seems to be lots more shoulder surgeries in swimming at the same time as increased teaching of EVF. Noticed that? Theres lots of people doing EVF who arent fast, why should we copy just one little part of the stroke of some elite swimmers that looks interesting claiming that it is an essential part of their success ? EVF has been around before the 70's and not only isn't new but rarely contested among the top coaches in the world as one of their main focuses. Look at the poll among coaches and you can hear them tell listeners that the catch is one of the first and primary areas of focus. EVF is simply another name for catch and don't let anyone tell you different. When anyone improves their EVF, they swim faster.

RE: EVF Teaching

Former Member — Wed, 13 Dec 2006 07:38:04 GMT

RE: EVF Teaching

Former Member — Tue, 12 Dec 2006 14:15:02 GMT

Or can I say a scull is a movement that is within the same plane of my moving body while a pull is more or less within a parallel plane to my moving body? Well, the terms "same plane of my moving body" and "a parallel plane to my moving body" aren't very clear to me. Probably most people will understand best with the informal description that a sculling motion is a sideways motion while a pull is a backwards motion.

RE: EVF Teaching

Former Member — Tue, 12 Dec 2006 13:03:48 GMT

I wonder if the early vertical forearm caused Grant Hacketts shoulder injury that needed surgery early this year. There seems to be lots more shoulder surgeries in swimming at the same time as increased teaching of EVF. Noticed that? Theres lots of people doing EVF who arent fast, why should we copy just one little part of the stroke of some elite swimmers that looks interesting claiming that it is an essential part of their success ? Come on Bindi

RE: EVF Teaching

Former Member — Tue, 12 Dec 2006 10:59:14 GMT

A scull is a movement at right angles to the direction you are going in while a pull is a movement parallel to the direction you are going in. Clearly many movements are some combination of the two. There was a time when swimming theorists believed that propulsion was primarily created by sculling motions but this turned out to be nonsense. Breaststroke is the stoke where sculling plays the largest role. Or can I say a scull is a movement that is within the same plane of my moving body while a pull is more or less within a parallel plane to my moving body?

RE: EVF Teaching

Former Member — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 17:17:49 GMT

Maglisho, and others, stress the importance of not rushing the catch, in part to avoid shoulder problems. How does EVF fit into that way of thinking? EVF is about speed, not shoulder health. If one could perform most of their practice using a deliberate and slow catch but race with an EVF, that would be ideal.

RE: EVF Teaching

Former Member — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 16:49:44 GMT

Maglisho, and others, stress the importance of not rushing the catch, in part to avoid shoulder problems. How does EVF fit into that way of thinking?

RE: EVF Teaching

Former Member — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 16:27:02 GMT

Could someone explain what exactly A SCULL and PULL is? and what is the difference between these two? A scull is a movement at right angles to the direction you are going in while a pull is a movement parallel to the direction you are going in. Clearly many movements are some combination of the two. There was a time when swimming theorists believed that propulsion was primarily created by sculling motions but this turned out to be nonsense. Breaststroke is the stoke where sculling plays the largest role.

RE: EVF Teaching

Former Member — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 09:40:27 GMT

It's best to wait until the arm has become nearly bent before exerting alot of force. Shoulder problems come from pressing down too hard when the arm is still straight. I like to place more emphasis on finishing the stroke.... rather than pressing too hard at the catch.

RE: EVF Teaching

Former Member — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:01:08 GMT

First, sculling too much is a common and very difficult flaw to correct. Second, sculling toward the mid-line too early is another difficult flaw to correct, Third, it's very easy to correct a swimmer who maintains a surfboard type pull throughout the entire pulling/pushing phase (never had one), and get them to pull toward the mid-line. Coach T. Could someone explain what exactly A SCULL and PULL is? and what is the difference between these two?

RE: EVF Teaching

Former Member — Mon, 04 Dec 2006 17:49:17 GMT

Coach T, I agree completely with you on the benefit of teaching EVF. Since reading your posts and articles on EVF, I've been working at incorporating EVF into my freestyle, and I've noticed that my intervals are consistently faster. The links that you sent were tremendously helpful -- they clearly show how the elite swimmers utilize the EVF. Good luck and continued success with your team. Best Regards, Dan

RE: EVF Teaching

Former Member — Mon, 04 Dec 2006 17:25:58 GMT

That is great to see improvement. That is the best part of being a coach I suspect; helping people improve.

RE: EVF Teaching

DanSad — Mon, 04 Dec 2006 08:42:12 GMT

Can you post those links here?

RE: EVF Teaching

Former Member — Mon, 04 Dec 2006 07:07:25 GMT

RE: EVF Teaching

Former Member — Sun, 03 Dec 2006 11:22:33 GMT

Donna, It's fun to hear from someone. I enjoy this forum a lot. I'm at tomtopo@netzero if anyone wants to chat off the forum. Good luck Donna, Coach T.

RE: EVF Teaching

Former Member — Sun, 03 Dec 2006 11:19:16 GMT

Coach T, Just so you know, and I have read your responses and replied to my other thread, I want you to know that I am listening. And am happy to see your comment about sculling---an enemy of many. Donna