Swimming Theories

RE: Swimming Theories

Former Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 17:56:22 GMT

Lastly, I think it is extremely difficult if not impossible to give advice that applies to everyone... Apparently not.

RE: Swimming Theories

Former Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 17:47:07 GMT

After all that has been written, believe it or not, I still have questions about the use of TI. And please correct me if I am wrong: TI swimmers swim more low in the water, or downhill TI swimmers do not endorse swim aids TI swimmers do not utilize high-intensity training I believe the final point is incorrect. My impression is that a TI coach probably would not advocate high-intensity training for a raw beginner, but Terry's posts here seem to advocate a lot of race pace work, for distances that you can hold form for, once you have ingrained your technique. Indeed he has talked about approaching demanding sets and working on ways to maintain form as he approaches his limits. On the first point, I have seen swimmers that swam very low in the water competing at the international level as well as people who swim quite high in the water, this leads me to believe that this is a matter of style rather than one approach or the other being "correct". Lastly, I think it is extremely difficult if not impossible to give advice that applies to everyone, from raw beginner to international competitor, and that it is too easy to take advice that a coach gives one swimmer in one context and criticize that advice as not applying to another swimmer in another context. It makes perfect sense to tell a raw beginner to concentrate on technique while telling an accomplished competitor that they need to work on race pace work. I do think that it is unfortunate that there are a lot of swimmers out there who are doing nothing but "super-slow" swimming that think they are following TI principles. I don't know what the solution to that is. Again, just my :2cents:

RE: Swimming Theories

Former Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 17:24:16 GMT

If only you knew how much time I have spent answering those questions, only to have the same questions crop up again and again and again, regardless. I honestly don't have a problem with being challenged on any statement. If it's not capable of being defended or substantiated, I can't in good faith continue to make it. It's the frequent and persistent mischaracterizing of what we advocate that gets frustrating. While I am unreluctant to admit that my goal is one that would in most cases be grounds for diagnosis of a grandiosity complex -- to change the world, at least the way the world practices and teaches swimming -- I feel unbelievably fortunate that after 34 years of coaching I can still wake up every morning passionate about what I do. Terry: Do not spend time on defending yourself. Let your results speak for themselves. Defending yourself with insults is never the best answer. (I know you said some stuff about objectivity, but to quote KNelson, I'm not "buying" that you are strictly "objective" and rational after reading some of your posts.) I may be wrong (don't tell me if I am), but I also think that most people just don't like being called "delusional." Now, everyone would do best to heed Miss Manner's advice, and ignore insults. But she's kinda girly. So here's my take. I actually think it's fine to have a grandiosity complex. Most people in this world are sitting on their you-know-what doing nothing. Not only do they not have meaningful goals, they have no goals whatsoever beyond their immediate trivials need. (Like right now, I'm tired and I'm pretty sure my youngest is going to wake me up again with her cold and that will piss me off.) But the best way to achieve those goals is to make people think that you are great. You've already got a good platform; you might just need an attitude adjustment on this forum. For example, from the threads I've perused, you're rocking with the newbies and the intermediates. You're their idol. You are changing their world and they love you. Mission accomplished. Where you're taking it on the chin is with the masters swimmer who were former age group stars. They just don't want to be told that their shoulder injuries can only and inevitably be caused by awful technique or that TI is the only way to swim fast. So maybe it would behoove (I hated when my father used this word) you to listen up a bit. Most of these feisty masters (women mostly, it seems, where are the men? are they less feisty than the women?) seem to be nationally and/or world ranked or former Olympians from what I've read or researched or heard via PM. Do you really have to rag on them? Don't their results speak for themselves too? I actually think most of them were trying to agree with you on the technique stuff. But you wouldn't give them even a little "mollification." Dude, where are your people skills? This works well with women. Sorry gals, although I will take mollification too, especially if I'm sick. Look, go forth and conquer. Like I said somewhere before, I don't remember where, no need for kids to get injured. I already do too much driving. I don't want to drive to PT or ART or massage therapists. It's bad enough kids are demanding fastskins at such a young age. (I'm drawing the line on wesuits. If it isn't below 70 degrees, go swim in the cold water. You'll warm up fast and not waste time transitioning.) But you better co-opt everyone if you want world change. And be willing to take your licks too. It ain't easy being the top dog, particularly if you're going to say you're "revolutionary." That's a bit of a stretch. Maybe you should just say you're the top technique guy and leave it at that. Or maybe now with your new book, which hopefully will contain some heart stopping, make you fast "TI workouts" you can be the technique plus speed guy. All I purport to know is this: Greatness + Modesty + Results + Proper Maketing = World Change

RE: Swimming Theories

Former Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 16:11:59 GMT

She has informed me, not so civily, that she will. But she ain't got me in backstroke yet Batman. :rofl: I see that almost no one has got you in the 50 back Fortress, but I think there are a few of us who will be kicking your butt in the pretty blue stuff ... and in breaststroke (not me of course).

RE: Swimming Theories

Former Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 16:06:51 GMT

RE: Swimming Theories

Former Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 16:05:46 GMT

But not this weekend. This weekend I am going to the Tom Dolan meet at GMU where I will watch some amazing age groupers and a couple masters swimmers. (Go Wally!!! :woot: ) Last year, Kate Zeigler broke Janet Evan's record in, I think, the 800 free at this meet. I will be watching to see who has the best technique and enjoying the close races. I will even get to watch my flying/breaststroking/IM-ing daughter in action and I don't have to officiate! So I will not have a lot of time to be posting this weekend. I need a rest.:D. Fortress, I hope your daughter beats the pants off you in the 50 fly.:lolup:

RE: Swimming Theories

Former Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 15:52:47 GMT

Are you afraid that Geek will steal your cape? :rofl: Just pray it's the cape and not the tights! :joker:

RE: Swimming Theories

Former Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 14:57:56 GMT

That's it, I'm giving up the practice of law. I believe there is a verse in the Christian bible to the effect that "Heaven shall rejoice more at the repentence of one sinner than in the deliverance of all the righteous." Or something to that effect. Now we just have to get you into open water races as well. -LBJ

RE: Swimming Theories

Former Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 14:38:54 GMT

I guess I am also guilty of a cop-out. I choose distance because it is now easier than trying to swim a 1:12 100 meter back. Donna;) Distance is no cop-out, Donna. I said it before .. somewhere. I've been a little wordy lately. Go long or go home. :groovy:

RE: Swimming Theories

Former Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 14:32:58 GMT

This thread has been one of the most informative, challenging, and rewarding experiences since I have joined this forum. I am not only grateful for everyone's comments, I am learning much from the posts. And even though I am a "clydesdale", at least I am one because that means I am still swimming. And now that I am older and less fit, I find it important to be here because as my body is aging, I do find, from time-to-time, that swimming like I used to is differently difficult, so I do search for those new methods to adjust my technique. This is why I was asking so much about TI and the fact that this may be the new "wave" of swimming theory. I would never bash a swimmer's choice of technique; I would just disagree with it if it wasn't working for them. I guess I am also guilty of a cop-out. I choose distance because it is now easier than trying to swim a 1:12 100 meter back. Not possible anymore, nor would I want to try. But I have paid my dues and enjoyed some degree of glory along the way. But, like the saying goes: we all get knocked off our pedestals at some point because there is always someone faster. And even when we age-up, they follow us. I have respect for Terry; his passion is unparalleled. But I would prefer that he talk with me, not at me and keep his insults at a minimum. Anyone who slings insults does not have the kind of character that I would want to be associated with and this goes for anyone who does this. It reminds me of "negative management." After all that has been written, believe it or not, I still have questions about the use of TI. And please correct me if I am wrong: TI swimmers swim more low in the water, or downhill TI swimmers do not endorse swim aids TI swimmers do not utilize high-intensity training Would TI technique methods help me with my upcoming 18 mile swim? Can small adjustments be made since I only have about a year & half to the swim? I have no intention of swiming this thing fast; the objective is to complete it. I will continue to remain open-minded. Donna;)

RE: Swimming Theories

Former Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 14:21:45 GMT

And I think the pushback we get from some in the mainstream swimming culture is, more broadly, because the results of these tests we do often suggest that a good number of the sacred cows of traditional swimming beliefs might be hamburger. As usual, your post did not address a key point I tried to make. It made a cheap shot and then proceeded to expound on your own theories ... again. (Sorry Linday, I like to hear theories too, but I also would like a responsive comment.) One thing I said was that you were dismissing world class masters swimmers and former Olympians. I said you should perhaps consider their results and, given those results, possibly think that what they said might make some sense. Or you could add them to you "study and analysis" material. This post just called Beth and her coach "hamburger." Since you disagree with the Fortress on shoulders and weights, I guess she is "hamburger" too. They women are not slackers. Fortress even said that she's doing TI training. As EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THIS THREAD HAS SAID technique is extremely important and our kids should grow up with that emphasis. So why are you attacking them and calling them "hamburger" if they tweek your theory a bit, adapt it to their individual needs and suggest that maybe its OK to life weights or kick sometimes. Your last post was to long for me to read, but it looks like maybe Islandsox did.... Like I said before, "It's My Way Or The Highway" belongs on a ipod.

RE: Swimming Theories

Former Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 14:18:49 GMT

RE: Swimming Theories

Former Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 14:10:50 GMT

I do dryland training and advocate it as well. Not just for performance but because the American College of Sports Medicine advocates twice-weekly resistance training for health, and so I can shovel the driveway without paying for it the next day. I do weights so I can look great and get hot chicks. Glad you're saving money on that driveway.

RE: Swimming Theories

Former Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 14:07:44 GMT

Why don't don't you let someone else have the last word just one little time?. Terry: I guess you just couldn't do it. What a shame. And I thought I gave you some constuctive advice....

RE: Swimming Theories

Former Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 14:03:23 GMT

Okay, that's it. Swimming high or low IS something that we have control over; maybe you can't do it so you convince others it is a waste of time. And hydroplaning does occur under speeds of 33mph. You are not telling the entire story here. A vessel has to be defined first for its length, width, height, volume, displacement and weight. You are completely categorizing because you think no one is listening closely enough. Swimming high on the water is not a waste of energy; it moves you forward faster than the TI method. You know this and you won't fess up. And let's suppose you are right about the extra energy thing here it takes to swim high on the water, are you saying your swimmers are not strong enough to swim on top of the water? I would suggest you train your swimmers to be stronger. Instead, are you putting thoughts into them that these things are not necessary? I think everyone would disagree with this including Michael Phelps. And the experiments you run only give you the results you want to put in your book to make money and not in an honest way. And the human body composition rests with not 5%, but 19%. Who are you talking to? Yourself? Now, I may give you some leadway on the swim aids, but I know for a fact that short Zoomer fins increased my leg strength for backstroke. And pull buoys do have a purpose for many. Maybe the problem is you have found no benefit from these things so you dispell them to everyone. But since you are against them, it would be of little value to even tell you why I think they are important. But just because you have never had any success with swim aids, doesn't mean they are without benefit. Give your swimmers options, Terry, not just what you think based on the fact that you could not make them successful for you. I have body balance with or without a buoy; most of the swimmers I know do also. You are speaking as if no one is an experienced swimmer and they are so much of a stepford-wife that they just go along with what you say. Somebody is giving you really bad information. The EVF thing is another problem I have. I also have a huge problem with the high intensity training. You are totally misleading people about these things because, for some reason, you couldn't do it yourself. This is the only thing I can think of as to why you would not encourage these two other things. You can speak of West Point and the Army, and Novak, and whomever else you want to name-drop. But what I am listening to is what you are telling people now and you are misleading them. Stroke technique is crucial, but so is high-intensity training and some of the swim aids help with the inner-body training we all need. But if you want to swim slow, go for it. I am really sorry that you have not been successful in your swimming career and I think because of this, you are trying to invent a revolutionary new way of swimming to get the pats on the back. You know, the something new thing. And, you almost had me in your corner until you started quoting things that are absolutely untrue but figments of your imagination to be "different" and to try to sell it as so. Now, I totally disagree with you. But this will mean nothing to you because I am that "clydesdale" with no merit. Ha! I'm done here. Your ego supersedes your talent. The Clydesdale from Honduras

RE: Swimming Theories

The Fortress — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 11:27:49 GMT

LBJ: You're pretty good at swooping in like Batman too. But LBJ is way too nice to steal your cape Batman. :rofl:

RE: Swimming Theories

Former Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 11:24:38 GMT

My theory on swimming is pretty much just this: If it feels good, do it. I’ve never used props (except to give them a try), and almost never do drills, kick sets, etc. I mostly pay attention to how I feel moving through the water. I’ve never been coached except to get some pointers now and again. My theory has always been to concentrate on technique, and speed will follow. I’ve never been the fastest fish in the pond (but I have been fastest in a few puddles). While conditioning is important in swimming, it is mostly mental (... as is just about everything else). I look and feel great. I get plenty of compliments on my swimming form. I saw my rheumatologist just yesterday and he said if it were not for my swimming practice I could very well be in a wheelchair now. So while I rarely beat anyone at the USMS meets I’ve attended, I have beat a few, so I’m pretty confident you’d be hard pressed to find anyone with a health condition similar to mine that could beat me. But I’m not nearly as concerned with speed as I am with staying healthy, mobile, and injury free. I recently tried to increase my practice (over a period of several months) to 2400yds in about 1.5hrs., 5x/wk (M-F). It was too much, so I’m back to about 1700 in 1hr., 3-5x/wk (generally every other day). I basically do 3 sets of 300IM (back, ***, free), with two of those followed by 6x50 kick/fly (dolphin kick on back out, fly back). I throw in a few other 50’s here and there of this and that. I’ve always practiced in a SCY pool (simply because that is what was there). I generally don't watch the clock except to see when I start and end my practice for the distance covered. I rest until I’ve caught my breath, and am confident I can take off again w/o risking an injury. I’m extremely goal oriented, and always try to push myself, while still remaining kind to myself. I have a lot of study and practice experience in Yoga as well. I’m amazed at the number of similarities between the two. Are my ideas right for everyone? I hardly think so. But I firmly believe anyone could reach very close to their own personal top potential using my “theories”. (The amount of effort it takes to go from being really good to being the best just does not seem worth it to me.) So I say: Be patient. Pay attention to how you feel going through the water. Listen, watch, and talk to others (the web has been fantastic for these). And last, but certainly not least, have fun with it!

RE: Swimming Theories

The Fortress — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 11:09:59 GMT

Fortress, I hope your daughter beats the pants off you in the 50 fly.:lolup: She has informed me, not so civily, that she will. But she ain't got me in backstroke yet Batman. :rofl:

RE: Swimming Theories

The Fortress — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 10:55:53 GMT

I believe there is a verse in the Christian bible to the effect that "Heaven shall rejoice more at the repentence of one sinner than in the deliverance of all the righteous." Or something to that effect. Now we just have to get you into open water races as well. -LBJ Leonard: I thought the topic of religion was taboo on this forum. :rofl: Plus, if I really quit the law altogether, I won't be able to buy expensive fastskins or give free advice to my master swimmer friends or pay the outrageous USS fees for my kids' coaches. Plus, Terry couldn't call me "counselor." :D I said it before, I put my toe in that blue stuff occasionally. :agree: Apparently not nearly as much as you and Donna and Batman and the other distance junkies here.

RE: Swimming Theories

The Fortress — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 10:51:15 GMT

This is all well and good, but don't be spoiling our fun. Levity is good. A little personality spices things up as well. :groovy: I personally get a bit of a laugh when Geek swooshes in like Batman and zings someone. I'm sure he'll be zinging me at some point. Are you afraid that Geek will steal your cape? :rofl:

RE: Swimming Theories

Former Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 10:42:39 GMT

I used to swim freestyle with a technique I learned in 70s. Then I started reading and applying Terry's and Hines's books 8-9 years ago. I worked hard about this technique over nearly 6 months and I managed to change my technique (or I think I did, because I am self-coached and there is noone teaching this technique in İstanbul). I can say that my stroke count decreased from 20-21 to 15-16 per 25 m. I am so happy with it. I had no injuries although I did a few dryland exercises. But when it comes to speed, ...... :help: . No improvement. OK, my swimming golf result is far better than before and my friends love my strokes, but in swimming races, they don't care about swimming golf score. I am happy with my new technique, but speed speed speed.:dunno:

RE: Swimming Theories

Former Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 10:20:27 GMT

Good gracious! I go away for awhile and the slings and arrows come out. Leslie, if I needed a lawyer, I'd hire you (unless you get corrupted by LBJ and take up racewalking). I would like someday to meet everyone in these forums in person and I bet that we would get along famously face to face where you get immediate feedback via body language, facial reactions in a discussion to possible excesses in use of the language. In the forums, via the typed word, it is all too easy (I am as prone as anyone) to admire one's own well-turned zinger and fire it off, then realize that you have napalm in trying to illuminate your point, rather than Diogene's lantern.

RE: Swimming Theories

Rob Copeland — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 10:03:14 GMT

Okay, that's it. I agree these personal attacks against another member and coaching techniques are not appropriate for this forum. If you have a problem with another forum member, please use private messages or email.

RE: Swimming Theories

Former Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 09:12:19 GMT

Apparently not. :D Zing! Good one.

RE: Swimming Theories

The Fortress — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 08:31:59 GMT

I am amazed, and grateful, that Terry sticks around here. I don't agree with everything he says, and he could probably offend less people by generalizing less about other coach's approaches, but he posts a lot of interesting and thought provoking stuff. If he gets a little defensive on occasion I think you only need to read what some people say about him to understand why. In any case, I encourage everyone to refrain from comments of a personal nature, there are plenty of interesting topics to discuss without needing to get personal, discuss the issues not the personalities and all that. :2cents: To be sure, Terry has been completely ragged on in those old closed anti-TI posts. He shows guts to stick around. He does post a lot of interesting and thought provoking stuff. But provoking thoughts sometimes means provoking disagreement. And sometimes he's a bit of a terrier in defending the "thought" he provoked. No doubt, the forum is way better off with him. Just like it's better off with you because you are a rocket scientist. But civility works both ways. As you said, "everyone" should refrain from nastiness. :2cents: I have noticed you yourself like to tweek people on occasion with logic and the spot on acerbic comment. ;) But it's OK, that's the entertainment value of the forum. We don't need to be snoozin' here.