overtraining and results

RE: overtraining and results

Former Member — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 14:10:31 GMT

I began an overtraining loop once, I was lucky as it only lasted 6 weeks. That was a while ago. But what I do remember, was two incredibly bad things : not being able to swim long sets off 1:30 anymore. And not being able to hold an erection for 6 weeks in a row. (did I really wrote that?) I don't know why anyone would want to hold one for 6 weeks! Wouldn't that kinda get in the way? Sorry, could not help myself...:blush:

RE: overtraining and results

The Fortress — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 10:40:58 GMT

Interesting article on Whitney Myers being overtrained. www.nytimes.com/.../02play-physed.html

RE: overtraining and results

Former Member — Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:55:11 GMT

Is there a book that has this information in it? Please share more info! This would be very relevant and helpful to all of us!:agree: Talk to SolarEnergy about this. He is on his way to becoming a "Bannister expert." -LBJ

RE: overtraining and results

Former Member — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 17:16:30 GMT

I am aiming toward an 18 mile swim in a year & a half.:shakeshead: Donna So I wish you good lack :) NotVeryFast - nice to see you! Thanks for the answer. As to the problem of overreaching and overtraining - how can I know where the boarder is? How should one plan one's training shedules wisely enough not to cross that line? Are there any signals from the body warning you in case you went too far? I just want to avoid my previous mistake which costed me a bit. I will not manage to do it unless I learn how far I can go. I would like to adapt my body to big effort during the next season but I must necessarily know how not to overdo.

RE: overtraining and results

Former Member — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:32:42 GMT

Hi Lindsay, Your posed a very good question about overtraining. I will say this about my training for the LC Nationals. Earlier that year is when I had my last shoulder surgery. After all the PT and downtime, I had to make a decision to try to get into good swimming condition in a small amount of time. I believe I had about 3 months total. I knew I could "pass" on the Nationals or go for it. I chose to go for it, and I knew I had to intensify my training to get to where I wanted to be. I do believe, in my case, I did overtrain for this one swim event. The fatigue was significant. Normally, I do not do this. So now with this new question I am wondering how much of a taper I really should do when I can swim/train for months on end? It may have been a one-time long-needed taper. But now I am 58 not 40-something so the question of tapering is still one I have to figure out. Especially now since I am aiming toward an 18 mile swim in a year & a half.:shakeshead: Right now, I haven't a clue as to the taper needed for that one. I will probably pose this question as the swim date gets closer. Donna

RE: overtraining and results

Former Member — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 12:50:43 GMT

I thought that overtraining is something undesirable and that you must be careful to avoid it. the process of carrying some fatigue over and over without recoverying from it is called "overreaching". That is a healthy process. Overtraining is a state that shares some similarities with nervous system breakdown. Typically, it takes place over several months, and of course, that isn't healty.

RE: overtraining and results

Former Member — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 12:26:26 GMT

Is it an ordinary course of affairs, a regular scheme of the training cycle, that one overtrains and than tapers? I thought that overtraining is something undesirable and that you must be careful to avoid it. We need to be careful with what terms we use. Just because a swimmer needs to taper doesn't mean they have "overtrained" as such. Strictly speaking, the term "overtraining" could be argued to only cover the case where the swimmer has sent their body into a catabolic state and is breaking down their muscle tissue rather than building it up. A swimmer who does this will become detrained, and even with sufficient rest will not perform as well as they did previously, because they have reversed their previous training adaptation by losing muscle tissue. What is very different to this is slowing down due to not being fully recovered each time you swim. In my case, for example, I only swim at my best in training if I haven't trained the day before. But if I always did this I would only train 3.5 times per week. I know from experience that if I train 4 times a week, my long term improvement is better than if I train 3 times a week, even though I will be tired for one of those sessions each week. And if I train 5 times a week, I will only have two of these sessions where I am fresh from a day's rest before the training, but my long term improvement will be even better. Here's one way to look at it. Suppose each training session takes 30 hours to recover from. If I train two consecutive days, I will not be fully recovered because only 24 hours have elapsed, so I have a "debt" of 6 hours of recovery at that point. But after my next session my total debt is still only 36 hours of recovery required, so I will still be fully recovered after a day of complete rest before my next training session. Even if I train 3 consecutive days, my debt after each session will be 30 hours, then 36 hours, then 42 hours, so I can still fully recover with one day's complete rest before a further session. In theory, if my recovery from each session takes 30 hours, I would optimise my training by doing 5.6 sessions per week. But then what I've said above, having periods of training where you don't fully recover followed by periods when you do recover, can be applied over even longer timescales, and this is what macro training cycles are about. So yes, I would say it is normal to have periods where you don't allow for complete recovery, but also periods where you do fully recover. Indeed I would say it is essential to train this way because most of us are limited to training at specific times of day, so can't simply train every 30 hours, or whatever our personal recovery period is.

RE: overtraining and results

Former Member — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 12:07:27 GMT

As to the problem of overreaching and overtraining - how can I know where the boarder is? Not that difficult, especially for swimmers. You generally know very well what you're worth on certain type of sets, or certain tests. Few days off, or a net decrease in overall density (intensity * volume) will generally be enough to get rid of overreaching. After this period, you can swim normally again (testing wise). With overtraining, if you can get your feelings and performance level back within a month, you can count yourself lucky. It means that you were not *that* overtrained. Deep overtraining, for elite athletes, where nothing works ok in their life anymore, sports, sleep, feeding, sexual life, this type of state will last for months. I began an overtraining loop once, I was lucky as it only lasted 6 weeks. That was a while ago. But what I do remember, was two incredibly bad things : not being able to swim long sets off 1:30 anymore. And not being able to hold an erection for 6 weeks in a row. (did I really wrote that?)

RE: overtraining and results

Former Member — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:59:10 GMT

RE: overtraining and results

The Fortress — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:31:16 GMT

It wasn't quite that much, closer to 80-100. I did 2 a days and took every other Sunday off. Looking back, it wasn't very smart. Betcha got that "runner's knee." Every other Sunday off is not exactly quality rest. Runners are even more compulsive than swimmers, I find. If you get "swimmer's shoulder" now, you will be in big trouble! My knees are surprisingly trouble free (probably cuz I'm not a breaststroker.) It's my loose ankles that cause problems for me in running. Good for swimming, bad for running. Both are great sports. Back on topic, I have felt a bit of "overtrained" when I'm doing running and swimming and weights, but I think it's just hard training and not "overtraining" -- to date. I was just like Beth -- mega burned out from mega yardage in college.

RE: overtraining and results

poolraat — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:24:18 GMT

Were you running 150 miles a week or something? I haven't yet overcome my running addiction fully, although the swimming addiction is at the forefront. It wasn't quite that much, closer to 80-100. I did 2 a days and took every other Sunday off. Looking back, it wasn't very smart.

RE: overtraining and results

swimr4life — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:19:59 GMT

Hi My question is to Islandsox and swimr4life: From what I read in your messages I infer (but I am not sure if I am right) that you normally overtrain during the season and then taper to get back to form before competition. I do not know if I understood you well, of course. Is it an ordinary course of affairs, a regular scheme of the training cycle, that one overtrains and than tapers? I thought that overtraining is something undesirable and that you must be careful to avoid it. It's not "overtraining" it's just training. As my coach used to say, "You have to go slower before you can go faster!" You want to put enough strain on your body and your energy systems to get a benefit. Your body adapts to it and is able to better perform later in the season when you taper. That's what works for me personally. I'm a sprinter and do very high quality workouts. These type workouts will make you feel like this :dedhorse: at times! If you are a distance swimmer, you usually don't need to back off as much for a big meet. Like I said in my earlier post...everyone is different and you have to find what works for you personally.

RE: overtraining and results

swimr4life — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 08:48:31 GMT

I stay on top of these things using the same sort of performance modeling that a Dr. Bannister set forth years ago. A bit complicated but successful in tracking fatigue and fitness on an ongoing basis and nailing tapers also. Is there a book that has this information in it? Please share more info! This would be very relevant and helpful to all of us!:agree:

RE: overtraining and results

The Fortress — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 07:42:31 GMT

Solar: You have just made me not feel bad about fessing up to things on this forum. Such honesty is refreshing!! :groovy: What were you doing to overtrain? Doubles in swimming? Multi-sporting? Poolraat: Were you running 150 miles a week or something? I haven't yet overcome my running addiction fully, although the swimming addiction is at the forefront.

RE: overtraining and results

poolraat — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 04:25:25 GMT

Common warning signs of overtraining include: Washed-out feeling, tired, drained, lack of energy Mild leg soreness, general achiness Pain in muscles & joints Sudden drop in performance Insomnia Headaches Decreased immunity (increased number of colds, and sore throats) decrease in training capacity / intensity moodiness and irritability depression loss of enthusiasm for the sport decreased appetite increased incidence of injuries. I experienced just about all of the above when I was a runner. It led to my giving up running and doing essentially nothing for 15 years until taking up swimming 7 years ago. Probably the best thing that ever happened to me. Now I know the signs and when to back off and rest. Even when training hard, I use hard/easy concept in my workouts. I alternate both daily and weekly. And if I feel tired and drained when I start a workout, I will abandon the planned workout and just do short drills and easy swimming.

RE: overtraining and results

Kevin in MD — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 04:01:07 GMT

Not having been there, I suspect what you experienced was simply detraining. That while you needed the rest to lower your fatigue level, the time off also lowered your fitness level. Then once you got back in, within a couple of weeks your fitness came back and you were good to go. Every workout induces both fatigue and fitness. These effects fade over the course of a few days. Luckily for us, the fatigure fades more quickly than the fitness. So with a few days off, your fatigue fades quickly and most of your fitness stays. But you DO lose SOME fitness during the break. I stay on top of these things using the same sort of performance modeling that a Dr. Bannister set forth years ago. A bit complicated but successful in tracking fatigue and fitness on an ongoing basis and nailing tapers also. Without it, you go by feel. Go until you start to feel al little ov erdone and back off for a few days then hit it again. Lots of people plan these weeks in. One out of every 4 weeks is a recovery week where you drop the volume and intensityof the training you are doing.

RE: overtraining and results

swimr4life — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 02:51:42 GMT

Lindsay, That is the million dollar question! It is very hard to know the fine difference in training hard and overtraining. Common warning signs of overtraining include: Washed-out feeling, tired, drained, lack of energy Mild leg soreness, general achiness Pain in muscles & joints Sudden drop in performance Insomnia Headaches Decreased immunity (increased number of colds, and sore throats) decrease in training capacity / intensity moodiness and irritability depression loss of enthusiasm for the sport decreased appetite increased incidence of injuries. I remember having a lot of these symptoms when I was a teenager. Back in the late 70's and early 80's high yardage and overtraining was the norm! I think that is why I burned out in college. I remember having A LOT of the symptoms above. I STAYED sick and felt terrible. Now I don't train more than 4 days a week. My body needs recovery days! If I feel especially tired, I try to take a day or two off and try to really take care of myself......in fact, I feel the need to take tomorrow off now that I look at this list! ;)

RE: overtraining and results

swimr4life — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 09:21:43 GMT

Lindsay, I think everyone is different in this area! I know I have to taper a long time at the end of the season to swim my best. I tend to get overtrained very easily. You may have to experiment to find what works best for you. I would go with subjective feeling and not look at the clock too much this time of the year.

RE: overtraining and results

Former Member — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 06:44:52 GMT

Could be a bug Lindsay. There are some bugs that win their fight and are causing us to caugh, but there are others that don't win. Yet we still have to struggle against them. I'm not a doctor, but I think these fights can last for more than a week. Add this to accute fatigue and you may have your explanation for counter performances.

RE: overtraining and results

Former Member — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 06:40:48 GMT

Lindsay, I have discovered over this last decade that my taper HAS to be longer than I think it should be. I found this out accidentally. I was starting a taper for the 1995 LC Nationals. I had previously been doing doubles several times a week for about 8 weeks. I knew I was tired; my race pace was off; my times were horrible, but I knew it was because of the effort I had been training with. I was looking forward to the taper. One morning I woke up and had double ear infections and it was 10-12 days before my flight to Oregon. Rushed to the doctor and antibiotics were given. I had a fever and my jaws looked like I had the mumps. I was down; I could not even taper, I had to totally stop swimming for that 10 day period. I was crushed over this, as well as worried :help:that I would lose so much power and my normal "feel" for the water. Well, it turned out to be a blessing in disguise. Had it not been for those ear infections, I would have kept swimming but tapering. I had no idea how much REST my body truly needed. I believe I was in my mid-40s about this time. When the gun went off for the 800m free, I was explosive and I felt like a stick of dynmite. I kept negative splitting every 50 and the farther I swam, the better I felt. My time was improved by over several minutes. I had a 3rd place finish that year at LC Nationals. My point is this: I did not know I needed more rest and if I had probably tapered down, according to those "charts", I may not have swam very well. I needed more rest/recovery than I ever realized. And I can thank those double ear infections for making certain I did not enter the water. Donna