Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

Former Member — Sat, 09 Jun 2007 10:38:34 GMT

Just came accross this from our local physio www.myphysio.ca/education.php

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

Former Member — Thu, 10 May 2007 16:48:56 GMT

I've been doing my RC exercises (thanx Beth) and they are helping, but it was mentioned in another thread to practice freestyle with your arms at 10 and 2. It felt better immediately. I know my arms don't cross centerline, but I am not very flexible. For me arms directly forward may be too much. Whether it is poor form or not may be body type and age related. I plan to keep on my RC exercises and work on my shoulder flexibility and add the 10-2 drill.

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

Former Member — Thu, 10 May 2007 15:59:22 GMT

I don't notice a whole lot of difference between when I am doing the RC exercises and when I do not. When I have stopped for a few weeks and come back, I can still complete the same number of sets/reps without any issues so I don't think that is really my issue. What does get to me though is overworking myself in the pool. A few weeks ago I trained quite hard for 4 days consecutively and by the 4th day I was really hurting. Since then I have gone back to my Monday, Wednesday, Friday routine and things are much better. Consistency seems to be key in the wellbeing of my shoulders.

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

Former Member — Thu, 10 May 2007 14:58:44 GMT

I don't have any problems, either I have the perfect stroke or don't swim enough anymore.

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

Former Member — Thu, 10 May 2007 14:46:22 GMT

Me too!!! I've been lazy about doing them since zones and have had a tummy virus and am now dragging from allergies. :violin: As a result, my labrum and scapular area hurt a bit. I'm going to lift weights today and do all my RC stuff at the gym. You gotta do 'em. Always. Yeah I do them and core stabilisers. Good news is working on the rolling/breathing has alleviated a lot of the issue. After a few RC reps my shoulder feels much better.

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

Former Member — Thu, 10 May 2007 14:29:20 GMT

I complete physical therapy tomorrow. My problem was diagnosed as bursitis, and the inflammation was causing some impingement. Since I have been working hard in the weight room, I was sure the problem was from lifting. My Physical Therapist believes the problem was not what I did, but what I didn't do. About 8 years ago, I was told my rotator cuff was not as strong as it should be for a swimmer. For awhile, I was diligent about using sugical tubing for internal and external rotator exercises. Lately, I have not been consistent. My shoulder was unstable and the movement irritated the bursa. 4 or 5 weeks of PT have strengthened the rotator cuff. I was making progress with heavy doses of Motrin, but since I am going to Federal Way, the doctor and and I decided to try a coritsone shot. I believe the inflammation would have eventually gone away with the Motrin, but the cortisone acted more quickly. The combination of reducing the inflammation and strengthening the rotator cuff has solved the problem. Everyday I repeat "I will do my shoulder exercises regularly. I will do my shoulder exercises regularly..." Some people feel the cortisone was a mistake, but I'm 65 and it's not like I'll do that again anytime soon. The doctor assured me that it was safe. I look forward to a good meet at Federal Way, although I lost some time with conditioning. Hey Betsy. I am struggling with that too. If I back way off of swimming will the issue cease and then let me build up the RC. Just curiious if you know from your troubles.

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

Former Member — Thu, 10 May 2007 13:58:27 GMT

I figured out that I'm lifting my head slightly so now am focusing on rolling and it seems to work better. SO yes sloppy form is a big factor but not exclusively.

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

The Fortress — Thu, 10 May 2007 10:44:48 GMT

ME TOO! My pt told me I would have to do rc exercises for the rest of my life. I didn't beleive her. MISTAKE! It is so true. Whenever I don't do them I get pain and inflammation, etc. I'll start doing them again and usually with time the pain goes away. Around November my shoulder/neck got so bad that I had to just STOP swimmng for 3 months! I kept trying to swim through the pain and ended up really messing myself up. Rich, I think it is better to back off and concentrate on your rc exercises before it gets so bad you have to stop! As long as my rc is strong, I'm almost pain free. YIPPEE! :bouncing: Me too!!! I've been lazy about doing them since zones and have had a tummy virus and am now dragging from allergies. :violin: As a result, my labrum and scapular area hurt a bit. I'm going to lift weights today and do all my RC stuff at the gym. You gotta do 'em. Always.

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

swimr4life — Thu, 10 May 2007 10:39:00 GMT

Everyday I repeat "I will do my shoulder exercises regularly. I will do my shoulder exercises regularly..." ME TOO! My pt told me I would have to do rc exercises for the rest of my life. I didn't beleive her. MISTAKE! It is so true. Whenever I don't do them I get pain and inflammation, etc. I'll start doing them again and usually with time the pain goes away. Around November my shoulder/neck got so bad that I had to just STOP swimmng for 3 months! I kept trying to swim through the pain and ended up really messing myself up. Rich, I think it is better to back off and concentrate on your rc exercises before it gets so bad you have to stop! As long as my rc is strong, I'm almost pain free. YIPPEE! :bouncing:

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

Betsy — Thu, 10 May 2007 10:27:06 GMT

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

Betsy — Thu, 10 May 2007 08:42:55 GMT

For several weeks during my rehab, I only swam breaststroke. I actually didn't swim very often. I went to Colonies Zones and swam breaststroke on 2 200 medley relays, 2 400 medley relays, and the individual 100 and 200 *** events. The worst part was trying to warm-up with only kicking and breaststroke. My PT made me promise not to do free or back because that's when it hurt from the impingment. After she agreed, I started back cautiously. I have to say my doctor actually listened to me about swimming and competing. Sometimes doctors don't listen to older women.

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

Former Member — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:31:43 GMT

As to the epidemic of shoulder problems among the young, I read the following in my daughter's recent issue of Splash magazine: "Because it allows for such a wid array of movements, the shoulder is perhaps the most versatile joint in the human body. Unfortunately, that versatility also makes it the most unstable joint we have. Combine that instability with the pounding it takes in the pool, and it's no wonder shoulder problems can be common among young swimmers. Besides limiting your strength and speed, if left unaddressed, this painful cnodition could force you out of the water indefinitely. According to physical therapist and strength coach Bill Hartman, swimmers shoulder is a mechnical pniching of the raotator cuff due to abnormal shoulder mechanics. It's typically caused by overuse and resultant fatigue that alters muscle recruitment around the scapula and shoulder. This changes stroke mechanics and creates repetitive trauma to the cuff." I feel tension pain in my scapula area and a little in my anterior deltoid...intersting...maybe a little of everything going on there.

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

The Fortress — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:27:46 GMT

As to the epidemic of shoulder problems among the young, I read the following in my daughter's recent issue of Splash magazine: "Because it allows for such a wid array of movements, the shoulder is perhaps the most versatile joint in the human body. Unfortunately, that versatility also makes it the most unstable joint we have. Combine that instability with the pounding it takes in the pool, and it's no wonder shoulder problems can be common among young swimmers. Besides limiting your strength and speed, if left unaddressed, this painful cnodition could force you out of the water indefinitely. According to physical therapist and strength coach Bill Hartman, swimmers shoulder is a mechnical pniching of the raotator cuff due to abnormal shoulder mechanics. It's typically caused by overuse and resultant fatigue that alters muscle recruitment around the scapula and shoulder. This changes stroke mechanics and creates repetitive trauma to the cuff." I spoke with an orthopedist and ART guy at some length today. There is a big difference between shoulder issue in kids and adults. Partly because they're growing and we're growing dessicated. Apparently, adults respond fairly well to cortisone. Both need to do prehab and rehab. I don't think kids do enough prehab.

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

Former Member — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 13:57:41 GMT

I telecommute (I'm sitting here in my PJ's as I type this.) and am on total flex hours as well, so unless I have a project deadline, I can make work fit around swimming/wife. -LBJ I think you need to open a Connecticut branch. :joker: ENVIOUS :D

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

Former Member — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 13:49:58 GMT

Leonard: You racoons are crazy. If you can do this, I'm sure you can do the sprint quadrathon. Quite sure. But how do you do this?! Do I recall you saying you had co-opted your wife to swim in the OW for vacation purposes? Does she ever see you if you are doing that kind of yardage? I suppose that the main point is that we have no kids, so other than work, our time is our own. I telecommute (I'm sitting here in my PJ's as I type this.) and am on total flex hours as well, so unless I have a project deadline, I can make work fit around swimming/wife. The only thing that occasionally interrupts that is a sick horse or stacking hay when it's delivered (we have a horse stabling business on the side), which takes precedence over everything. We also try to mesh things. e.g. I swim while she is giving riding lessons. The worst part has been having to train by myself except for maybe 8000 yards/week with the YMCA masters. I'm not doing MIMS this year, so I probably won't do as much yardage, although who knows - I DO enjoy swimming long workouts (a favorite is 12,000+ yards in 3 hours). Raccoons are determined, or as Dave Barry once wrote about them (concerning being unable to keep food away from them when at camp): "If we ever get serious about the space program, all we need to do is convince raccoons that there is food on Jupiter. They'll find a way to get there." -LBJ

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

The Fortress — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:16:58 GMT

55,000 yards/week at times -LBJ Leonard: You racoons are crazy. If you can do this, I'm sure you can do the sprint quadrathon. Quite sure. But how do you do this?! Do I recall you saying you had co-opted your wife to swim in the OW for vacation purposes? Does she ever see you if you are doing that kind of yardage?

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

Former Member — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:07:15 GMT

I have a question. I know my shoulder problems are from zillions of yardage for about a decade, and then I took a break, and then I joined Masters and was doing 3-4000 yds 3xweek. My question is this: why are shoulder injuries so much more prevalent now than from the 1950-60-70 era. I have spoken to many elite swimmers from that era, and they don't have shoulder problems and they are still swimming but now only 3xweek. And most all of us swam elevated in the water, and head was not low (freestyle) and same on backstroke. There was no sculling whatsoever and we swam EVF. I just wonder why, and I wonder why now? Donna

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

Former Member — Sun, 10 Dec 2006 17:08:00 GMT

Of course not and this article from Mat Luebbers swimming.about.com really does a good job at answering that question. Causes of Swimmers Shoulder From Mat Luebbers, Your Guide to Swimming. FREE Newsletter. Sign Up Now! Swimmers Shoulder Causes There are many possible reasons for SS to develop. SS injury and pain from impingement and other related issues seems to occur under one or more of the following circumstances (Anderson, Hall, & Martin, 2000; Bak & Fauno, 1997; Costill, Maglischo, & Richardson, 1992; Johnson, Gauvin, & Fredericson, 2003; Maglischo, 2003; Pollard & Croker, 1999; Tuffey, 2000; Otis & Goldingay, 2000; Weisenthal, 2001). SS is considered an impingement related injury that seems to develop through a mechanism related to overuse or instability (Anderson, Hall, & Martin, 2000; Bak & Fauno, 1997; Baum, 1994; Chang, 2002; Costill, Maglischo, & Richardson, 1992; Johnson, Gauvin, & Fredericson, 2003; Koehler & Thorson, 1996; Loosli & Quick, 1996; Maglischo, 2003; mayo Clinic, 2000; Newton, Jones, Kraemer, & Wardle, 2002; Pink & Jobe, 1996; Pollard, 2001; Pollard & Croker, 1999; Reuter & Wright, 1996; Richardson, Jobe, & Collins, 1980; Tuffey, 2000; Otis & Goldingay, 2000; Weisenthal, 2001): * faulty stroke mechanics * sudden increases in training loads or intensity * repetitive micro traumas related to overuse * training errors (such as unbalanced strength development) * use of training devices like hand paddles * higher levels of swimming experience * high percentage of freestyle swum in practices * weaknesses in the upper trapezius and serratus anterior * weakness or tightness of the posterior cuff muscles (infraspinatus and teres minor) or a hyper mobile or very lax shoulder joint. Swimmers perform a great number of overhead arm motions in the course of a normal practice week; Pink and Jobe (1996) estimate that some swimmers may complete as many as 16,000 shoulder revolutions in a one week period, while Johnson, Gauvin, and Fredericson (2003) estimate this number could be as high as 1 million per year. Sponsored Links End Shoulder TendonitisAmazing New Natural Treatment For Shoulder Tendonitis Works Greatwww.TotalTendonitisPainRelief.com Shoulder InjuryEnd Discomfort In Under 7 Days Rotator Cuff Repair Secretswww.MiracleRotatorCuffSecrets.com Exercise swimmingImprove Strength and Conditioning. while having fun Swimming.SportsWorkout.com/Swimming To gain a sense of scale, Pink and Jobe (1996) compare swimmer's arm motions with 1,000 weekly shoulder revolutions for a professional tennis player or a baseball pitcher (Pink & Jobe, 1996). Given the swimmer's quantity of movements and the range of those movements, micro traumas are inevitable, and damage from repeated micro traumas can develop into SS (Bak & Fauno, 1997; Chang, 2002; Costill, Maglischo, & Richardson, 1992; Johnson, Gauvin, & Fredericson, 2003; Pink & Jobe, 1996; Pollard & Croker, 1999; Otis & Goldingay, 2000). It appears that there are three main syndromes behind SS (Pollard & Crocker, 1999; Weisenthal, 2000): * instability * impingement * tendonitis Tuffey (2000) lists the triad of problems involved with SS as: * biceps tendonitis * subacromial bursitis * rotator cuff tendonitis usually in the supraspinatus muscle. Richardson, Jobe, and Collins (1980) summarize SS as a chronic irritation involving the humeral head and rotator cuff interacting with the coracoacromial arch during shoulder abduction resulting in an impingement, as do Otis and Goldingay (2000). I think there are a lot of proactive things a swimmer can do to greatly reduce if not eliminate the chances of shoulder problems. One thing that a swimmer can do is to isolate the shoulder cuff and strengthen it by performing static and isometric exercises. These exercises specifically address the area that they train and it doesn't take a lot of time. The benefits are great and the time is minimal compared to other training regimes. I do believe even swimmers unfortunate enough to have a weak or a hyperflexible shoulder cuff and accompanying muscles, can greatly reduce their chances of swimmer's shoulder. Here's another great article on the subject. Shoulder Injury in Competitive Swimmers By Larry Weisenthal Huntington Beach, CA Associate Clinical Professor of Medicine University of California Irvine School of Medicine, Medical Director The following is an e-mail from a swim coach in Australia. His question and my answer may be of interest to coaches working with talented teenage swimmers with shoulder pain. At present I have a 14-year-old girl who is starting to develop shoulder pain. Unfortunately she is, perhaps, the most talented of all my swimmers. I think she has the potential to be quite a good distance swimmer. Her freestyle pull is near textbook perfect. She maintains the highest elbow at catch and pull through of any swimmer I have seen (this may actually be exacerbating the problem). I may be panicking too early, however, having gone through my own shoulder problems as well as sharing the heartache and frustration another swimmer felt through her injury/recovery; I want to be sure Jenna is looked after early. The pain has come and gone before. There does seem to be some correlation with yardage increases and pain. The last few weeks we have been covering a little more fly as well which in the past has led to her shoulder pain flaring up. Below is a summary of when and where she feels pain: - Right shoulder only (she does breathe to both sides, however she definitely favors the left side) - Freestyle – pain at catch and at end of pull through - Fly – pain during recovery - Back – not too bad, however sometimes pain at end of recovery and start of pull - *** – pain at start of pull through (not too bad though) - Sometimes upon picking a heavy object up or by pushing herself up off the ground she feels like she is ‘pulling freestyle’ i.e. the pain? The pain is a dull ache and lasts all day. It is not sore to touch. Physios suggested to her that there was weakness in stabilizers of scapula. She does have quite hunched over posture. She is a slender girl. Basically just from looking at her I get the feeling she is a prime candidate for shoulder probs. Her mother is a local MD. She is keen to read some literature on this. Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. My answer: Short version of the shoulder story (I’ll go into more detail later on): 90% of these problems are from impingement. The symptoms you describe are consistent with this. This can be reduced by some simple stroke modifications. Two causes (besides technique). 1. Bad bone anatomy. Big or down-sloping or spurred acromion (bone you feel when you clap yourself on the shoulder) or else thickened coracoacromial ligament (runs from the lateral tip of the acromion to a little boney knob in the front of the scapula to which the short head biceps tendon attaches). Diagnose this with an MRI (14-year-old girls can have poorly ossified acromial head which can be difficult to see on a plain x-ray). 2. Lax/hypermobile joint. Humerus held up against scapula by ligaments called the joint capsule. Most good swimmers are very flexible (because their joint capsules are loose). Have her hold her arm straight ahead while standing up… elbow down, palm up. Look at the angle between the (upper) arm and forearm. Is it 180 degrees? Then she’s probably not hypermobile. If it is >180 degrees? Then she very well may be hypermobile. Problem with hypermobility is that the head of the humerus can migrate upwards, smashing the superior rotator cuff (supraspinatus) tendon against the "roof" of the shoulder (acromion and coracoacromial ligament). This is worse during the stroke… usually worst right at the very start of catch and pull through. This is because when downward/rearward pressure is applied, the head of the humerus is forced upward. Oftentimes, swimmers have both problem #1 and problem #2. Tests for #1 type impingement (in addition to MRI to define anatomy): Neer Test: Raise arm overhead, pointing straight up. Rotate hand so palm is outward. Dr/Coach then presses against palm, forcing hand over the top of the head. Does this hurt? If so, it is a positive test. Note that this is a position commonly advocated for swimmers. Swimmer on the side, hand reached straight forward, palm down. Is there any wonder that swimming causes shoulder problems when some swimmers are taught to swim by performing a Neer test on themselves with each stroke? Hawkins Test: Arms at side. Lift elbow up to the side, so that (upper) arm is at shoulder level, parallel to ground, fingertips pointing straight down. Now, rotate thumb backwards, while securing wrist to keep fingers pointing straight down, while examiner forcefully pushes shoulder forward. Pain? Positive test. Note that this position can be achieved also during the swimming stroke, with certain types of high elbow recoveries. Or think a butterfly recovery, with elbows slightly bent and thumbs down and slightly more easy to clear the water this way. But about 35% of elite flyers do recover palms down, thumb leading, so it is not incompatible with fast fly swimming. While your kid is actually having pain (not just trying to prevent pain), she might even tilt her thumbs slightly upward during recovery, to completely avoid internal rotation. Internal rotation being bad because it rotates the vulnerable supraspinatus tendon right underneath the most narrow part of the acromion and coracoacromial ligament (where there is the least space and where the tendon gets squeezed the most). In brief, what else to do? Oh, one more thing. Rule out that the pain is being caused by epiphysitis. Have the kid’s mom tell you about something called Osgood-schlatter’s syndrome. This is a very common problem in 14-year-old land athletes (soccer, basketball, running). The lower patellar tendon attaches to the top of the tibia right over a growth plate (epiphysis). Traction of the tendon against the growth plate can hurt like heck. Cure is aging enough so that the growth plate closes. Same thing can happen in the shoulder, where the acromial epiphysis can get inflamed from repetitive motion. This is very easy to diagnose. Put two fingers on the top of the acromion, right near the ("drop off") end of the top of the shoulder bone (where you’d clap your mate on the shoulder in a pub watching your favorite ruggers, say, "The Bulldogs," while exclaiming "How ‘bout them dawgs!" immediately after a try). Anyway just press firmly on the top of the bone with two fingers and see if you can force her to the ground, not with pressure, but by eliciting pain. If this doesn’t happen (i.e. you can’t force her down with pain), then you have ruled out epiphystis as a cause. If you can force her down, write back and we’ll talk about what to do about it. Presuming the problem is garden-variety impingement syndrome, here’s what to do. 1. Kicking lane until she is having no more pain. My daughter’s team had a 15 year-old girl with a nearly identical problem who kicked for about 12 weeks straight last winter, but, 10 weeks after resuming full stroke swimming, swam a 4:47 400 IM LCM. Will it take 4 or 8 or 12 weeks? I don’t know. But definitely do this; your swimmer is only 14 and a stitch in time saves nine. 2. Posterior rotator cuff strengthening (to strengthen active stabilizers… i.e. the rotator cuff itself… to keep the head of the humerus down where it belongs and not migrate upward. Particularly important if the "elbow bend test" diagnoses hypermobility. 3. Stroke modification. Rule number 1. Avoid/minimize internal rotation of the hand/forearm/(upper) arm complex. Internal rotation is counter-clockwise on right and clockwise on left. Rule number 2. See #1. Rule number 3. Don’t apply downward/backward forces at the catch until the forearm has descended well into the high elbow position. The problem with paddles is that there is a tendency to begin the pull much too early, as it takes longer for the hand to drop to the catch position while wearing a paddle. The problem with a too early pull is that the head of the humerus is forced upward. Rule number 4. Don’t have a big, strong push back to "finish the stroke." This produces a "wring-out" effect, crimping off the small arteriole which supplies blood to the supraspinatus tendon. Don’t worry. Your great Aussie-coaching colleague Carew teaches an early exit. Perkins doesn’t finish the stroke but swims with an early exit. So does Franzi Van Almsick, WR holder in the 200 free. How to avoid internal rotation? 1. Something I call the "Birmingham feather" (after a brilliant young Aussie coach who taught it to my daughter). Think rowing. After the end of the stroke, what does a competitive rower do? He "feathers" the oar so that the flat blade is parallel to the surface of the water. This is what Coach Birmingham taught my daughter to do. She still does it. So does my other daughter. So do I. As long as we remember to do this, none of us have any shoulder pain at all. In the article by Yanai and Hay at the University of Iowa published last year, they found that the number one cause of impingement was delayed external rotation (Birmingham feathering) during recovery. 2. Don’t swim with a locked elbow forward reach unless you are Ian Thorpe and have a great kick. Van den Hoogenband never completely straightens his left elbow, and he’s the fastest freestyle swimmer (100/200) in history. A female distance swimmer shouldn’t ever swim with a locked elbow stroke unless she is Astrid Strauss on steroids with an unbelievable kick racing Janet Evans in the ’88 Olympics. Otherwise, swim like Brooke Bennett or Diana Munz,. Shorter stroke; faster turnover; no Neer test, no internal rotation during recovery and entry. Early exit to avoid supraspinatus arty wring out. Locked elbow stroke only makes sense in the context of a great kick (e.g. US distance ace Erik Vendt). Otherwise, in a weak kicker (e.g. most female distance swimmers or swimmers such as Claudia Poll and Lindsay Benko), the more rapid turnover is needed to conserve momentum, which is rapidly lost with locked elbow orthopedic Neer impingement test and will be more likely to produce shoulder (rotator cuff) injury. 3. Basically, you want to have thumb ahead of pinky during recovery and entry. At the moment of catch and pull, it’s probably more efficient to have some internal rotation, but 80% of all impingement occurs at recovery and entry, and only 20% during pull through. However, if the swimmer is still having pain, then even keeping the thumb slightly forward (toward the direction that the swimmer is moving in or toward the approaching wall) of the pinky during pull through will eliminate internal rotation at all times, and minimize impingement as well. To allow for an effective angle of attack, the entry should be a little wider than usual, so that the initial part of the pinky during pull through will eliminate internal rotation at all times, and minimize impingement as well. To allow for an effective angle of attack, the entry should be a little wider than usual, so that the initial part of the pull resembles the initial part of the butterfly pull (where the hand typically enters wider than in freestyle and the start of the pull is an inward diagonal). 4. Fly is recovering with palms down, thumbs forward. 5. Back is thumb out, pinky in… but when do you rotate the wrist? Many backstrokers rotate immediately, to lead with the pinky as the hand moves out of the water and over the head. This is internal rotation (bad). You want to keep the thumb forward, pointing to the direction of travel until just before entry, when you feather the hand to enter pinky first. 6. ***… your swimmer is getting pain I presume at the time she rotates her thumbs inward to begin the (high elbow) pull. Internal rotation again. Hard to describe how to modify this without seeing her swim in person. Maybe just a slight reduction in internal rotation (i.e. thumbs not so much inward) is all it will take to give her some relief. Generally, avoid internal rotation wherever possible (e.g. if doing a hard lead kicking drill on the side, keep the palm of the hand up, rather than down). While reaching for the wall, do so with thumb up. While raising her hand in class, do so with palm back, thumb outward, etc. PS – You say that she favors left-sided breathing. Is she right handed? Right handers should never develop dominant left-sided breathing. Never, never, never. This is one of the cardinal sins in freestyle swimming. All swimmers are asymmetric. Even elite swimmers. This was documented at the International Canter for Aquatics Research Center in Colorado Springs. Described in Maglischo’s book, Swimming Even Faster. Put any swimmer in the middle of the ocean without visual clues and he will swim in circles. Just like everyone would row in circles. So you want to strengthen the left sided pull (if you are right handed). Otherwise, you are creating a lot of drag as you constantly re-aim to stay on the black line and not veer against the lane line. This is what van den Hoogenband’s "loping" stroke achieves. But everyone "lopes" a bit just by breathing. You end up getting more body side forces assisting the pull of the non-breathing side arm, as the body rotates back from breathing. Thus, a left sided/right handed breather is accentuating the right/left strength asymmetry, rather than reducing it. The bonus is that there is often less impingement on the breathing side. Easier to maintain external rotation during recovery and entry and avoid internal rotation. If your swimmer is right handed, she should be a primary right side breather. This will even out force vectors between right and left and should reduce impingement to her right (sore) side in the bargain. l

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

Former Member — Sun, 10 Dec 2006 15:49:56 GMT

I believe the reason Terry has great success in his swimmers not having shoulder issues is not just because they try to perform perfect technique. They are not doing volume so the only culprit according to his observations has to be technique and specifically in those swimmers not doing TI and doing high-volume. Perhaps that is too broad a brush with which to paint. I use TI and over the last 3 years have done as much as 55,000 yards/week at times in preparation for MIMS. No shoulder problems, although I have had some elbow tendonitis from using my arm as a shock absorber when doing open turns (obviously not TI-related). When I first learned to swim (age 39; non-TI) ,I did have shoulder problems and had several bouts of physiotherapy for same. I'm not saying that this disproves your assertion; nor am I saying that it proves that TI prevents shoulder injuries, but there are people who do TI and volume. (Including some people who have done the English Channel, etc.) -LBJ

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

Former Member — Sun, 10 Dec 2006 15:07:20 GMT

6. ***… your swimmer is getting pain I presume at the time she rotates her thumbs inward to begin the (high elbow) pull. Internal rotation again. Hard to describe how to modify this without seeing her swim in person. Maybe just a slight reduction in internal rotation (i.e. thumbs not so much inward) is all it will take to give her some relief. Generally, avoid internal rotation wherever possible (e.g. if doing a hard lead kicking drill on the side, keep the palm of the hand up, rather than down). While reaching for the wall, do so with thumb up. While raising her hand in class, do so with palm back, thumb outward, etc. This may get me burned at the stake but I was trained as a kid, and still do this: On my glide in breaststroke I shoot my hands out palms up, pinkies together, thumbs held neutral...then turn the hands to "prayer" just as I break for the pull. Rich

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

Former Member — Sun, 10 Dec 2006 14:11:15 GMT

Coach T, I can't thank you enough for providing so much detail and valid stats on this topic. I always thought that most people rushed to the conclusion it had to be technique, and I knew this was not true; at least not as often as people had said. We all know that poor technique can do a swimmer in, and poor technique with volume yardage may most certainly do a swimmer in, but for those of us who do have textbook strokes and these strokes have served us well, yardage volume and/or body design have to be the main focus as to the reason. My orthopedic surgeon who performed both of my shoulder surgeries told me from the damage done to my shoulder, it was just too much rotation over a long period of time. He actually created more space in the shoulder so in the future I would have more room to make more rotation without further injury. And now that I think of it, I want to drop his name here because without him, I would not be swimming today. His name is Duc Nguyen from Redwood City, California and he was, for a long time, the orthopedic surgeon for the San Francisco 49ers. He also did my knee replacement and repaired two broken wrists and arms all done in one terrible fall. And when he did these, he was cutting-edge technology. My downtime was actually minimal compared to others with the same kinds of injuries. Not pertinent to this thread, I just wanted to let people know that may live in the Redwood City, CA area that he may be the fellow for you to see if, god forbid, you have to. Donna

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

The Fortress — Sun, 10 Dec 2006 12:23:08 GMT

Coach T: I am going to re-read your post more carefully tomorrow morning before heading to a swim meet cuz it's late. But I just wanted to tell you that you made my night! Thank you for laying it all out! :bow:

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

dorothyrde — Sun, 10 Dec 2006 07:43:02 GMT

I am right handed and favor left side breathing. Interesting. Plus, my elbow joints are definately hyper mobile and so are my daughters. Another term they call us is double jointed, which really is wrong.

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

Former Member — Sun, 10 Dec 2006 07:19:06 GMT

Leonard, It may be a too broad a brush. I have just been carefully reading everything Terry wrote and some other people's comments on TI technique with lower volume, so it seemed to be an obvious conclusion, but it is a "general" one. And you are a fine example of high-volume/TI and faring really well. That's a pile of yardage, Dude!! I just want everyone who swims to never have to experience shoulder problems, and this thread is providing a multitude of thoughts on it, as well as conclusions with and without fact. And I think this is a good thing; makes us all stop and think about our technique and how much yardage may be too much, especially for those who are really, really intune with how they feel during and after practices. You know, kinda like that silent "red flag" that goes up when something isn't quite right. Donna

RE: Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

Former Member — Sat, 09 Dec 2006 15:35:19 GMT

Millions of rotations on a shoulder while a person is of young age and their bones and bodies are still developing, may inhibit the growth of the shoulder and surrounding tissues and may even make one pre-disposed to shoulder problems. Donna This makes sense to me. It is similar to the thought that kids shouldn't engage in excessive weights training either.