shoulder clicking

RE: shoulder clicking

Former Member — Sun, 24 Dec 2006 10:33:56 GMT

So are you eating that Bocci pizza and Ted's hot dogs up there in Buffalo? Best pizza I ever had! That's the problem with living here and trying to get back into competition shape. Too much good food and poor self control!!!!!!!:)

RE: shoulder clicking

Former Member — Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:57:30 GMT

That's two of us now (at least) that have asked about Donna's avatar. I wish I had come up with this. But I don't have enough posts to have a custom avatar yet. Several years ago there was a great prank at the University of Wisconsin where thousands of plastic pink flamingos were planted on a stately oft-photographed section of campus. At the time it was considered original. Maybe others have been inspired for similar misbehavior :thhbbb: This thread has been officially hijacked. I can't think of anything more to say about shoulder symptoms other than don't ignore them and if the pain doesn't subside get help from someone who is smart and experienced.

RE: shoulder clicking

Former Member — Fri, 22 Dec 2006 16:35:36 GMT

Wanna join in the fun? It's only 18 miles or so, a true slow-motion sightseeing swim tour of the waters of the western Caribbean.:DDonna I would love to join in the fun, but I don't think work will permit that much travel or training. What's your rec for OW books? Maybe you should write one with your expertise. Do you have time to write and swim and make MonkeyLaLas?

RE: shoulder clicking

Former Member — Fri, 22 Dec 2006 08:16:47 GMT

Grinch, Don't know when it comes out, I just sent off all my information. Let the writer get through all the information. I believe it is USMS, and maybe USA swimming also. No details yet. I am sure it will just be an article with excerpts from some marathon swimming folks; they just decided to include me and am not sure why; maybe an older woman's point of view and the fact that 18 miles is a long swim for an almost "senior citizen.":rofl: Donna Well, just keep us posted on your OW thread. What the hell is that in your avatar? Dead storks? I think us OW types have hijacked this thread for sure.

RE: shoulder clicking

Former Member — Fri, 22 Dec 2006 07:13:38 GMT

RE: shoulder clicking

Former Member — Fri, 22 Dec 2006 07:00:17 GMT

Well now, there's a thought, writing a book. I already have written a book but it's not about swimming and it sells really well; has been for 5 years now. But maybe a book on Open Water, specifically for people over 50 or 60 who have had multiple injuries. I am sure I am not the only one; sometimes I think I can actually hear shoulder clicking when I swim with others and their clicking is louder than mine.:rofl: I guess I'll see how this article goes first that a person from a Swim Magazine has contacted me about. They want to do an article on my training for the Utila swim, along with other information that may help others. I had to be very truthful and let people know that drinking alcohol needs to stop (boo-hoo) because it does cause extreme dehydration which causes lower leg and foot cramps, even though it does help shoulder pain :rofl:(but I didn't put that part in there).:rofl: Donna Wow. I was actually just kidding around. When does the article about Utila come out? Is it in the USMS magazine or something else? I guess those rum and cokes and MonkeyLaLas are history, huh?

RE: shoulder clicking

Former Member — Fri, 22 Dec 2006 06:53:59 GMT

RE: shoulder clicking

Former Member — Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:29:08 GMT

Swim for life; you will later on be able to pass along your ideas to a "new swimmer." And this is where Pay It Forward comes into play.Donna Looks like you're paying it forward. Good luck training for that long OW swim. How many folks are doing that?

RE: shoulder clicking

Former Member — Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:08:45 GMT

Heather, :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: The way I figure it, I have short blonde/gray hair right now because of my age, but after this swim, I'll probably have an entirely gray head of hair from possible "incidents" along the way; you know, the Fright Factor. So, I will no longer have to have highlights put in to keep it more blonde than gray. 18 miles and 9 hours later, voila, I'll finally be one of those older women we call the Blue Rinse Specials. Donna

RE: shoulder clicking

Former Member — Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:46:31 GMT

Hey, there, Grinch, Three people, two from this forum, have it on their calendars and they will do a relay over to Utila. I'm doing my own separate swim at the same time and my shoulders will click all the way over there. True training for this starts in February; giving me plenty of time, I hope!!! Wanna join in the fun? It's only 18 miles or so, a true slow-motion sightseeing swim tour of the waters of the western Caribbean.:D Donna

RE: shoulder clicking

FlyQueen — Thu, 21 Dec 2006 04:47:50 GMT

RE: shoulder clicking

Former Member — Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:59:30 GMT

JBDrags, I so agree with what you are saying; that injuries are caused not just from poor technique, but may be caused by anatomy and a thousand of other things including just way too many years of rotation that causes the joints to breakdown in many swimmers, as well as discus throwers, baseball pitchers and the list goes on and on. For anyone to state that it is one thing, or one thing plus one more thing, is, well, outrageous. If the proof is in the pudding, then NO ONE knows for sure, even an othopedic surgeon. And each of us can speak with a hundred people who will agree with our theories on this. Be wary of people's opinions; find what works for YOU. Now, if a new person to swimming can find a way to offset injuries from technique, then that person should seek that out. But what is that? Many say they have the "way", but do they? Again, no one knows for certain until much later down the road even though they profess to it. I always am leary of a person who seems to "know it all." I don't think there is such a thing. If I were a brand new swimmer, I would listen to people who have been swimming for a long time with an injury record less than others. And, not everyone who swims for a long time has injuries, thank the Lord here. Take your own stand, find your own stroke and pace, and enjoy swimming; leave the injuries to those of us who have experienced them. Don't even fret about them if you are working on technqiue, whatever technique you decide to do. Many people use many different techniques and enjoy a life of swimming. Swim for life; you will later on be able to pass along your ideas to a "new swimmer." And this is where Pay It Forward comes into play. Donna

RE: shoulder clicking

Former Member — Wed, 20 Dec 2006 13:08:43 GMT

Hmm.. I still think "mitigating other causative factors better than anything you can do" is different from the position that technique is the "primary" or "pre-eminent" causative factor. The first goes to mitigation after causation, the second goes to initial proximate causation. I think perhaps, consistent with TI principles of mindfulness, you might not want to let the professed "mindset" get too "set." Why, I myself, tried to do that Michael Phelps breathing every stroke fly for awhile as an experiment, but I was just slower that way. And remember, despite all my teasing, I did try butterfrog! :yawn: quote] I think that everyone’s case is different. As humans we are all made up differently and that's what makes us great. I too have clicking and pain in my shoulders. I have always been a butterflyer. I have had my stroke technique filmed and dissected at both the high school and collegiate level. My technique has always received high marks with no real need for improvement. I also used to concentrate on strengthening my shoulder and leg muscles all the time. So this just shows that even if you do everything right you can still develop problems. I suggest not overdoing and consult a physician for a diagnosis.

RE: shoulder clicking

The Fortress — Wed, 20 Dec 2006 09:44:29 GMT

I think that everyone’s case is different. As humans we are all made up differently and that's what makes us great. I too have clicking and pain in my shoulders. I have always been a butterflyer. I have had my stroke technique filmed and dissected at both the high school and collegiate level. My technique has always received high marks with no real need for improvement. I also used to concentrate on strengthening my shoulder and leg muscles all the time. So this just shows that even if you do everything right you can still develop problems. I suggest not overdoing and consult a physician for a diagnosis. My what an open-minded empathetic fellow you are! Thanks! Sounds like we have similar pasts and anatomies. No worries, I have seen docs, etc., supposed to get an MRI soon. I've cut back on yardage lately and my shoulder feels better, which of course is now only delaying the MRI, but I shall be careful. So are you eating that Bocci pizza and Ted's hot dogs up there in Buffalo? Best pizza I ever had!

RE: shoulder clicking

Former Member — Fri, 01 Dec 2006 12:02:27 GMT

But how come swimming is more fun than running? At least in the non-summer months, you're outdoors when you're running. I had a very nice run today. Geez, I hate opening a thread and seeing "Nor have I lost my mind" at the top of the page .... Lol. It beats when you open a thread and see, "That sounds like something Hitler would say." I like running a lot, but it's just conditioning. Swimming is a skill and therefore more interesting. I didn't have to learn to run. I don't think I want to swim through this though. It hurts picking up my toothbrush with the left hand. But maybe I'll go back earlier than I thought. RTodd: I'll try that once I'm in the pool again. Could definitely use somone looking at my stroke. Longer repeats? I don't want to swim slowly 1000y, must be what I need then.

RE: shoulder clicking

Former Member — Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:52:52 GMT

Rtodd- I've been swimming 3x weekly and crosstraining with running and (easy) gymnastics. Was hoping to move up to 4x per week with the swimming, it's a lot more fun than running. Went to the doc yesterday and was diagnosed with tendonitis in the long head of the biceps. Was told to not swim for a minimum of 2 weeks and then start physical therapy. Which means I'm doing spin classes at the Y :mad: Spin class peeve: When you go to a spin class because of a shoulder injury and they decide that everyone is going to work on upper body strength by doing a kind of half-assed pushup on the handlebars while pedaling. To answer your question, the last workout I did looked like (adapted from Emmet Hine's book and using his drill names): WU:4x75 on :15Rest drills with short fins 4x25 on :20Rest side glide balanced breathing no fins Main Set: 6x50 on :15rest alt 50 side glide freestyle/5 & glide/swim fast (hand swapping) 4x100 on 2:20 1x200 with pull buoy 2x25 drills with fins 2x100 on 2:00 4x25 alternating back/*** (just learning these) CD: 2x50 drills no fins 2x50 drills with fins 1850m Thanks again for sharing your experience! :drink: for you. How many workouts a week and what is the yardage for each workout? What specifically are your workouts? I'm trying to get a handle on this. Doing 100's on 2 minutes is a crazy fast workout for a new swimmer. I went through the same thing. You may need to back off for a while. I augment my swimming with alot of pullups in the gym to help strengthen the back. I think it helps. You need to be careful though. You are a big guy and that can strain shoulders in and out of the pool.

RE: shoulder clicking

The Fortress — Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:50:41 GMT

Was hoping to move up to 4x per week with the swimming, it's a lot more fun than running. Went to the doc yesterday and was diagnosed with tendonitis in the long head of the biceps. Was told to not swim for a minimum of 2 weeks and then start physical therapy. That's what doctors always say, "rest." I don't buy it. I had biceps tendonitis and rotator cuff tendontis last year. I didn't "rest" per se. I cut back and did some restorative swimming as needed. Resting rarely helps in the long term. The tendonitis or soreness often comes back once you hit the water again unless you start agonizingly slowly. I'd start doing some RC exercises pronto and get some massage or ART therapy. Just my view, of course. Find a doc, or PT or ART guy who can help you swim through it with caution. They do exist. But how come swimming is more fun than running? At least in the non-summer months, you're outdoors when you're running. I had a very nice run today. Geez, I hate opening a thread and seeing "Nor have I lost my mind" at the top of the page ....

RE: shoulder clicking

Former Member — Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:46:20 GMT

It was all yardage and race stategy and and puking if you were super tough. I never heard the term "SDK" back then, that's for sure. As a result, I've actually been pretty obsessed with technique since I started back. I remember puking. Especially if I had too much :drink: the night before.

RE: shoulder clicking

rtodd — Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:40:24 GMT

Tendonitis, yep. This should go away with time and rest. I think the clicking is due to inflamation. This is just something that occurs with taking up something new. It freaked me out. I woud recommend a few things: 1. Get someone who knows what they are doing to look at your stroke, preferrably a coach. Sometimes great swimmers can't convey in words what is wrong, but a good coach can. If you don't have a coach or team, get to a meet anyway and have an on hand deck coach look at your warmups. Just ask, everyone helps. 2. Forget the short repeats for a while. Your intensity is going to naturally skyrocket in a workout like that which can be hard on the shoulders. Especially if your technique is poor (recommendation 1). 3. I can't recommend this, but I swam with the tendonitis and used it as feedback to experiment with my catch. I found that placing my hand in the water and letting it fall into deeper water before applying real power created a pain free stroke. I also learned not to over reach. 4. Go for longer comtinuous swims of 1000 to 1500 yards. This will help create a base ( a new swimmer needs this) and reduce the forces on your shoulder because you will be fatigued. Swimming fatigued will help you concentrate on your glide, balance, rythm and timing. The base you develop in longer swims will help you get through higher intensity interval training later. Practice and Learn bi lateral breathing in your longer swims.

RE: shoulder clicking

The Fortress — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 05:34:22 GMT

"...better than anything else you can do." Consistent with what I've been saying. Nonetheless, as you have posted a detailed description of your personal experience on the other thread, I understand your point of view. You feel you're doing everything possible to mitigate and yet your shoulders still become inflamed periodically. I'm sure you think about your technique constantly. You do your prehab exercises pretty religiously. So in practice, our behavior is exactly the same. Our experiences are different. Hmm.. I still think "mitigating other causative factors better than anything you can do" is different from the position that technique is the "primary" or "pre-eminent" causative factor. The first goes to mitigation after causation, the second goes to initial proximate causation. I think perhaps, consistent with TI principles of mindfulness, you might not want to let the professed "mindset" get too "set." Why, I myself, tried to do that Michael Phelps breathing every stroke fly for awhile as an experiment, but I was just slower that way. And remember, despite all my teasing, I did try butterfrog! :yawn: Now, on the other items quoted above, thank you, you're exactly right!! (I'm really sorry if I bored you with too much personal experience. My bad.) I'm frustrated. And I'm also frankly pissed off that, since I've been swimming, my shoulders have broadened and I've had to buy some new shirts. Who wants that to happen unless the shoulders are making a contribution in the pool?! :shakeshead: I am quite sure I botched things up when I was young as well. I don't recall technique being emphasized very much way back then. It was all yardage and race stategy and and puking if you were super tough. I never heard the term "SDK" back then, that's for sure. As a result, I've actually been pretty obsessed with technique since I started back. It's jolly good to know that swimmers, such as yourself, can bounce back so well from acute shoulder problems. :applaud: However, I think you may be more patient (and definitely more mindful) than me. We may have different anatomy as well, which causes my shoulder issue to recur. It's that gross "dessication." Yech. Blech.

RE: shoulder clicking

rtodd — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:52:36 GMT

How many workouts a week and what is the yardage for each workout? What specifically are your workouts? I'm trying to get a handle on this. Doing 100's on 2 minutes is a crazy fast workout for a new swimmer. I went through the same thing. You may need to back off for a while. I augment my swimming with alot of pullups in the gym to help strengthen the back. I think it helps. You need to be careful though. You are a big guy and that can strain shoulders in and out of the pool.

RE: shoulder clicking

Former Member — Mon, 27 Nov 2006 15:30:09 GMT

Actually it's "wrybosome". Or Tim. Age: 34 Height: 6' Weight: 230 Have been training since June, and a little bit about 2 years ago. I'm following a routine I've modified from TI and Emmet Hine's book of workouts. Lots of drill sets, but some additional yardage to better my endurance. Sometimes I adapt the printed masters workouts to a yardage I can do in an hour (say 2000 yards instead of 3000 or 3500). I watched the masters at my Y swim and was told they like people to be able to do 100m in 2 min, which I can definitely do but not for more than a few sets. Once I get to that point I want to start working with the masters team here. So I haven't had any coaching yet. I can only do freestyle so far, but am starting to work on *** and back to relieve the shoulders a bit. My freestyle stats look like: golf score on 50 m: 72 average strokes/25m: 18 lowest strokes/25m: 14 Best time on 50m: 38 s Distance in 15 minutes: 900m but that was with a buoy I tend to go hard on any given set because it seems to hold my form together better. My legs sink when I go slow. I don't have any previous injury with the shoulders. BillS: Took lessons till I could land the thing every time, but not licensed. For some reason the transponder codes stuck in my head.

RE: shoulder clicking

BillS — Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:49:53 GMT

*squawks 7500* Pilot, huh?

RE: shoulder clicking

rtodd — Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:27:33 GMT

Let's not loose sight of the fac that "wybosome" is a new swimmer. My original point is that if you are new at something, there will be initial pain brought on. I speak from multiple experiences. Let's say you take up swimming at 40 years old, and for the sake of argument you have flawless form and train 5 days a week (90 minute workouts), including sprint intervals. I would not be surprised if shoulder tendonitis came early in training progression due to sudden overuse. I don't know if we know enough about "wybosome" yet: Physical age, weight, training age, training program, volume, intensity, strength, prior injury, etc. I am not dismissing good form at all and good coaching.

RE: shoulder clicking

The Fortress — Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:24:01 GMT

I haven't and wouldn't claim that it will. What I will state categorically is that proper technique will mitigate all other causative factors better than anything else you can do. I think there has been a slight retrenchment in your position, counselor. You've gone from shoulder injuries being "mostly" due to improper stroke technique, to a "primary causative factor" to "mitigating other causative factors." I did briefly check the mayo clinic websites. Now, I did not have time for an exhaustive analysis because I'm busy writing other stuff. But the articles I scanned praised swimming for being low impact and advocated proper stroke mechanics, but still said you can get "overuse tendonitis" and that swimming itself "may inflame" the rotator cuff muscles.