Should coaches teach cheating?

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

Former Member — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 15:59:59 GMT

I don't swim the breaststroke unless forced to so I do not need to worry about this thread :-). However, I can see how two dolphin kicks might be used. When you dive in,the swimmer with flexibility in his back arches in at dive causing a natural first initial dolphin kick, however minor it is. The second one, is the obvious one when your streamline out past the flags getting ready to break your streamline from the dive and do your first pull. I also realized this morning at practice why my breaststroke stinks. When swimming breaststroke I am concerned about the age groupers in my lane or next to me so when one is on side of me, I always do a dolphin kick. I would hate to bust a kids rib out on my kick. So I determined my breastroke kick is weak because of that (good excuse huh). As a result, I will stick with fly and just smack the age groupers in the head with my hands :rolleyes: Greg

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

Former Member — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 15:07:37 GMT

Coaches should NEVER encourage cheating and should be removed from their position if they are doing so. It is downright harmful for it leads to poor character development. Cheating is stealing you know. And what does that one "extra" underwater kick get you? a 10th of a second? Sorry if this sounds harsh, but cheating also leads to other bad behaviors. What's wrong with a young swimmer just taking a little more time and more hard work to become a faster and more proficient swimmer? Patience and hard work can get you to the finish wall just fine.

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

poolraat — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 12:33:40 GMT

Should coaches teach cheating?......ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! I'm a swim coach and consider my job a lot more than teaching swimming! I think coaches are to mentor their swimmers and model good behavior. Call me corny but, I consider my job coaching not only for swimming but for life. I agree with you and I think I said so earlier in this thread. But do you, as a coach, sometimes interpret the rules more liberally than an official? My wife is the coach of our age group club and I am an official and we have some interesting discussions regarding rules interpretation. And most of the time one ends up convincing the other that their interpretation is the correct one. But there are times when it ends with a "I think I'll ask Joe (LSC Officials Chair) and see what he says".

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

swimr4life — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 09:47:50 GMT

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

Former Member — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 08:31:05 GMT

I heard once that rules are meant to be broken. In breaststroke I don't think the rules were broken by the over the water recovery. When butterfly was first used they followed the rules of breaststroke. I have watched the film from the 2004 Olmpics and I am still not sure whether his kick could have been called illegal. Maybe his feet were forced up by the second wave the water filling in the void left by his body.

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

Former Member — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 07:38:50 GMT

Sorry, "bent" not "bended."

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

Former Member — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 07:37:39 GMT

Cheating is flat-out wrong - there's a reason for the rules. On the other hand, butterfly now exists because someone bended the rules (but whether that was good or bad is still a subject of much debate).

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

Former Member — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 06:58:04 GMT

Dear Fortress - No we live closer to Philly, but the team name Striker rings a bell though. I like the analogy of a drop off party, I will use that one! I like to email our team parents invitations to adult soccer leagues as a way to remind them there are always outlets for them to play in and I am always encouraging adults to join the Masters. I think that parents who still compete have an edge at remembering the pressure, the nervousness, the joy, the thrill and the disappointment that goes with competition. I am reminded often how it feels to work hard and still not see progress...another thread.... My daughter actually brought up the issue of cheating on the car ride to school today. She is 9 and is just beginning to develop the more abstract concepts of morality, she was pretty sure it was okay to cheat if someone's life was in danger but she couldnt come up with a situation. But anything less she thought was selfish.

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

poolraat — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 03:31:50 GMT

I've seen some swimmers do a small dolphin at the beginning of the arm pull as well as one near the end. I don't think it's intentional but a part of the set-up for the arm pull (comments breaststrokers?). A lot of times it's missed by the turn official because of the surface turbulance and if the stroke judge on the side sees it he/she can't make the call because the swimmer is not yet in their jurisdiction.

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

knelson — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 03:21:57 GMT

In another thread I read that an unnamed USS coach was teaching using 2 dolphin kicks in breaststroke pullout,sneaking the first one in after the dive (like Kitajima did.) First of all, just like everyone else said I think it's wrong for a coach to teach kids to cheat regardless of whether it's something the officials can see or not. But I'm wondering if that kick right after entering the water is even a good idea? It seems like right when you enter the water is the point in the race when you're going the absolute fastest. Do you want to break your streamline to do a dolphin kick at that point? Perhaps these cheaters are unwittingly actually slowing themselves down?

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

Former Member — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:54:27 GMT

this thread reminds me of that movie "ladybugs" and "mighty ducks" where you have the good, pure team going against the vicious, cheating team. I'm picturing a coach dressed all in black, standing on a starting block, leering over the kids, instructing them all the methods of cheating and how to win dirty. Sure would make some mean, conniving kids if all they think about is cheating to win. what's the glory in that? i don't see how winning, knowing you cheated to do it, really constitues as winning. If you're not doing the same thing as another competitor, it's not even the same event.

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

Former Member — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:45:56 GMT

Isn't one of the reasons children should participate in sports is to build character? At least that what I've always been told. The message a coach sends to their swimmers when he/she teaches them how to cheat is that it is okay to be dishonest so long as you don't get caught. So, no it isn't okay to teach a swimmer how to cheat. But, there can be grey areas when rules are not clear enough so a kick, pull, turn etc can be judged reliabily and validly. Thats why rules should be reviewed and changed. Lainey

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

Former Member — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:34:10 GMT

Sam- try that line on a girlfriend or wife...

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

Former Member — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:29:00 GMT

In another thread I read that an unnamed USS coach was teaching using 2 dolphin kicks in breaststroke pullout,sneaking the first one in after the dive (like Kitajima did.) I had previously heard coaches teaching dolphin kick on the pullout before it was legal saying "I'll keep teaching it until they DQ it." What do you all think of this? I think the refs should watch for this and DQ the swimmers of course,but I think the coach should be flogged I don't care how many Olympians the might have trained. It's not cheating if you don't get caught... :rofl:

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

Former Member — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:28:06 GMT

No they should not.

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

Former Member — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:56:26 GMT

Leslie, maybe the second kick is like the third kick in Michael Phelp's fly that you mentioned in another thread, imperceptable and therefore non-DQable! :D

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

Former Member — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:56:01 GMT

My personal opinion, if there is proof that the coach is teaching "cheating" they should be suspended. And Geek.....I've always heard the saying this way: If you ain't cheatin'...you ain't tryin' If you get caught....you ain't tryin' hard enough!!!!!:rofl:

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

Former Member — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:11:26 GMT

there is no room in swimming (or in life) for cheating, in my book. as a USS coach, i would never ever encourage my kids to do something illegal in a race. never. i don't care if it means the difference between making a cut and not, i'm of the belief that getting to the next level by hard work (and some talent too) is much more satisfying than getting there by underhanded means. just my :2cents: exactly, and what if/when the kids get caught, they then scream and cry "But my coach taught me that!!" there will be some livid parents and coaches in big trouble.

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

Jeff Commings — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 12:26:11 GMT

In another thread I read that an unnamed USS coach was teaching using 2 dolphin kicks in breaststroke pullout,sneaking the first one in after the dive (like Kitajima did.) I had previously heard coaches teaching dolphin kick on the pullout before it was legal saying "I'll keep teaching it until they DQ it." What do you all think of this? Skip Kenney used to teach his breaststrokers how to dolphin kick all the time. Oops. Did I just say that?

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

poolraat — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 11:26:20 GMT

Michael Phelps' 3rd kick illegal under the rules? It is not. The rule book does not address the number of kicks allowed per arm cycle as it does for the breaststroke, therefore any number of kicks is allowable. Regarding the breaststroke, I have seen several swimmers whose body wave make it appear that they are doing a dolphin immediately following the *** kick. If they are getting any propulsion from it then the swimmer should be disqualified. It is very hard to judge this because of the glare and surface turbulance and if there is any doubt it should not be called. But if it is obvious, then it is an infraction. In my opinion, any coach that would teach their swimmers to do this in order to gain an advantage, should be sanctioned.

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

The Fortress — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 11:00:46 GMT

I think that's right, Lindsay. It's hard to catch. I watched someone doing it myself and I couldn't see it. But there was too much splashing. And I wasn't looking for it because the comment came later. But is Michael Phelps' 3rd kick illegal under the rules?

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

Kevin in MD — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 10:59:28 GMT

I think we are talking about the point when you go from entry angle to horizontal. In that case, you are going to go from a hip extension position to a hip neutral position. How do you differentiate doing this legally and doing it illegally? What makes a kick a kick. Because in this case your hips will go from extended to neutral in either case.

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

fatboy — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 10:44:15 GMT

I think the coach is implying that it is very hard for the judge to see the dolphin kick after the dive so there is little chance of being DQ'd. I am not in favor of cheating. But many sports have a fine line between "gamesmanship" and cheating, such as offensive lineman holding in football. Some NFL players insist that it happens every play whether it is called or not.

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

aquageek — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 10:20:00 GMT

Since I'm from NASCAR country I might as well throw out the old quote "if you ain't cheating, you ain't tryin'." Now, go ahead and saddle up your high holy horses.

RE: Should coaches teach cheating?

Former Member — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 10:11:55 GMT

I am one of those travel soccer parents and travel team manager and a Masters swimmer. I would have loved for my daughter to have taken up competitive swimming but one of her friend's experiences pretty much turned her off. This friend swims non stop year round, doesnt have time for a sleep over, spends weeks in the summer at a swim camp 1000 miles away from home. She talks to my daughter nonstop about how upset her father,who swam competitively, will be with her if she doesnt improve. When I ask my daughter about swimming she says "Like so and so, no way". My daughter plays travel soccer and we were very careful about what coach we let coach her. It wasnt about is she good enough to make the team, for us it was is he good enough to spend time around my child shaping her self concept. Parents need to be far more choosey about who they let coach their children, versus thinking "oh, if she doesnt make this team at 2 and half she will never get that college scholarship". Our travel team parents are very vocal, but we cheer for every kid, even on the other teams, when they do something spectacular and when they are having a rough day. It is not uncommon when another coach is out of line and yells some stupid comment at a child, our parents in unison will respond with loud "ohhhh" sending our shock and disapproval quite loudly across the field. As to cheating, why would anyone teach a child, or adult for that matter, something she could be penalized for - sounds like the lazy or ignorant way out.