Does cross-training with running help swimming?

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

Former Member — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 16:20:40 GMT

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

Former Member — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 15:13:53 GMT

OK some of these responses echo exactly my point. You have do do what works for you! I'd love to do Phelps' workouts and training regime but I can't. I have time, and physical limitations and then a lack of previous experience tells me I will be on the ortho's table with shoulder injuries in no time. Adopting training ethics and habits of top swimmers absolutely. Only swimming 50% of what they do and using dry-land to work the rest for your health...even more so. My thought: Top swimmers with the golden 12-21 age period development years can do more than me, who from 8-12 swam...coming back at 37. I am fortunate, I had good coaching as a kid, I had some ability in BR, I had the basics, I had an above average aerobic capacity, and still had to re-wire myself. That said I don't have all the development years that the top swimmers had...in general. I'm not getting :22 on a 50 :24 maybe...with a lot of work. Even so running won't impact a 50 at least aerobically. In my youth I danced, I ran, I lifted, I did martial arts, I played badminton, so maybe my "golden development" is in my legs...hence I can go for hours on land and get more for my aerobic base there. Sure it won't lead to a better stroke but my view is that my stroke holds together better for longer now...and you don't have to believe me, but it jumped up after doing cardio. Other points, Tim and I have more in common on sporting terms than me and Chris Stevenson for example. I can learn much from Chris' blog about ideas and behaviors, but I can't swim like him. Tim and I can read our blogs and see what is working for each other and think "Hmm he's a pretty good approximation of me...maybe I should try that...or see what he did to improve." Lastly, yeah there are plenty of older, fatter swimmers that can beat me...it isn't about size...it's about "tone." I am not into suits but having tried it, I know it makes a compressed, flab-wobble free body shape. I'm trying to get as close to that in my own skin as possible. From that POV, running helps swimming. Not the technical stroke work or feel, but the ability to maximise those elements which I have right now--while I still train and work on them.

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

Former Member — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:43:03 GMT

I think running is the best for burning off unwanted fat. I don't want fat and I don't want to look like a whale. :agree: This is the ONLY reason I've added running to my workouts.

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

Former Member — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:30:12 GMT

I have no idea what the discussion about running and swimming has to do with elitism, no one has even brought up the elite swimmers. Not directly Geek, no. However, when someone (average) states that something works for them...there's a lot of backlash from folks who either: have done better in swimming with a full life of participation, or from the white, fluffy, baaa-ing masses that can't look at anything other than the top swimmers. Absolutely there are lessons to learn from the top placed group...but sometimes the other guy who is as fat, skinny, asthmatic, bronchial, gluten intolerant, one legged, blind, deaf, suffering from MS as someone else reading it, may have some insight that relates more. Maybe land based cardio will do them more aerobic good than 20 x 100 on a 1:40 interval if they cannot hold the intensity. That and a silly whale analogy...:cane: ...now I am leaving before Carlos Fernandez comes back on....

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

Former Member — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:15:46 GMT

Stud by that statement you mean that a skinny man is going to be a fast swimmer. Whales have lots of fat and they are pretty fast. But if they lost weight you mean they will be faster. I don't think so. By that statement you think losing fat and losing weight are the same thing...I don't think so. The average guy with flabby fat all over himself, who is not a previous age grouper, college jock, or ex olympian, or in fact just naturally damn talented at swimming, is going to find flab a hindrance. Whales have fat but it's squeezed into a Mother Nature B70 with build in aqua dynamics. Old or not so old, fat guys that have a long pedigree of swimming are not the average flabby guy. Or is this forum just for ex age groupers, NCAA champs and Ex Olympians? I'm going to go away from this forum again until the elitist crap stops. Anyway Running helps me.

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

aquageek — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 11:41:50 GMT

Good post, Stud!

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

joshua — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 11:36:12 GMT

This is my idea of an effective all-around conditioning circuit. Now remember guys, look at the exercises:bump:.... YouTube- Fitness - Killer 550 Rep Workout

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

aquageek — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 10:34:35 GMT

This is an interesting coversation. What seems to jump out from the proponents of running is that they lose weight and their swimming improves. I contend the weight loss is more valuable than the running. There is absolutely nothing about running specifically that improves swimming, zip, zero, nada. The same amount of time dedicated to swimming training will yield better results. If you want proof, stop swimming for 4 months and run only and then see how your swimming is. This isn't to say running isn't enjoyable. The elitist point is a good one, however. Swimming at a club with a Team Elite (Olympic hopefuls, Olympians and pro swimmers) I have adopted the point of view that they tend to know what they are doing and talking about. So, why not adopt what I can of theirs versus doing something else less efficient for the same amount of time? They are elite for a reason, learn from the best. I agree with Fort, do what you want and what makes your workouts most enjoyable.

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

The Fortress — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 10:17:04 GMT

Not directly Geek, no. However, when someone (average) states that something works for them...there's a lot of backlash from folks who either: have done better in swimming with a full life of participation, or from the white, fluffy, baaa-ing masses that can't look at anything other than the top swimmers. Absolutely there are lessons to learn from the top placed group...but sometimes the other guy who is as fat, skinny, asthmatic, bronchial, gluten intolerant, one legged, blind, deaf, suffering from MS as someone else reading it, may have some insight that relates more. Maybe land based cardio will do them more aerobic good than 20 x 100 on a 1:40 interval if they cannot hold the intensity. That and a silly whale analogy...:cane: ...now I am leaving before Carlos Fernandez comes back on.... I get backlash all the time. I have gotten great gluten free advice from PMs and on my blog and listen to it. I think running is the best for burning off unwanted fat. I don't want fat and I don't want to look like a whale. Nor do I want to do 20 x 100 @ 1:40. Land based training is very individual. Vlad Pleshenko runs 5 miles a day and think it helps; if I did that, I'd break down right away. Everyone has to find the right balance. And there are loads of newbie postings on this forum. Now, if I write than I've done 20 x 100 and no land based work on my blog, you'll know that's April Fools! I agree that CF and his "I won't listen to anyone who isn't FINA Top 5" attitude is offensive.

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

Stevepowell — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 10:09:04 GMT

Well the converse isn't true: I've been swimming for a year and a half now and I can't run (trot) more than a few hundred yards. But my swimming has gotten faster and I can swim longer that when I started. Although.... from working on kicking my bird legs are showing some slight sign of muscle. Re; George's post, by my read he says you can go fast even if heavy.

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

That Guy — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 10:08:27 GMT

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

aquageek — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 09:22:04 GMT

I have no idea what the discussion about running and swimming has to do with elitism, no one has even brought up the elite swimmers.

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

Former Member — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 06:05:31 GMT

This is my idea of an effective all-around conditioning circuit. Now remember guys, look at the exercises:bump:.... YouTube- Fitness - Killer 550 Rep Workout Thank you for that, I think I need to close my office door now....

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

Former Member — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 05:51:57 GMT

What is good for one is not necessarily good for another. I was a very high floater even when I was younger. I did a lot of cross training. I ran, cycled, rowed, paddled, lifted weights, land drills that were proposed by the swim coach at Yale University, and lots of swimming. As I got older my knees gave me trouble so cut out the running. Then after I switched to long distance swimming I eliminated everthing else except the land drills that Kipuith disigned and massive amounts of paced swimming, scattered in with sprint swim workouts. The sprint workouts were timed so I could swim fast when needed. I would throw in 25s, 50s and 100s as fast as I had ever competed in when I was a sprinter. I would start my training weighing in as high as 255lbs and when ready to swim my first race at about 225lbs. By the end of a distance swimming season I would weigh in at about 215. One year I ended up weighing 187, I looked like a skeliton with muscles. I had to eat very large meals to keep my weight up. During the marathon swim season.

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

Former Member — Wed, 31 Mar 2010 16:21:46 GMT

@ Chris Yep, I totally agree that I would not give up 2x days in the water but I would do it in addition or with a dry land routine... I mentioned this in an earlier post. Running sprints is ONE dry-land component that can help build explosive power for starts and turns as well as core strength. Since the question was about running, that was the main focus of my comments. I did mention other exercises like box jumps/plyo for the same thing. You do have to do a ton of core stab (with cross motion) with sprints so its a good bang for your buck if you are healthy enough to add them to your routine.

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

Former Member — Wed, 31 Mar 2010 15:23:06 GMT

Running helps. Burns more fat...less fat means a tighter body and thus less drag...less drag means...oh my aunt Jemima...faster swimming. That said if you're squeezing a flabby bod into a B70 or the like...then no, maybe you don't need to run... We're all different and for me running made a huge difference in anything over 200 yards. I can't get the same workout in the pool that I can on the treadmill. I am just not built that way.

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

Former Member — Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:40:18 GMT

Running not only hurts my swimming, but running eventually hurts my running. I've found that I can run 2x a week for 2-3 months to build up the ability to run a 5k in 30 minutes, after which my knee and legs hurt so much I can no longer run at all for several weeks/months. No way I could even think about using a kickboard during those periods. Swimming is my recovery from running, along with the jacuzzi and ice on the knee. I haven't run one step since completing a sprint triathlon last June. Now that I have spring fever, the pool swimming season is almost over, and my knee has been painless for several months I am almost dumb enough to try running again. Maybe just a 5k. If I could isolate just the weight loss benefit and return to swimming full time before injury my swimming could possibly improve. Biking would be a much better option for me though. I am always craving to resurrect my hoops career too. But I also want to be able to walk. It sucks getting old. I envy those that run without being in complete agony every single step.

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

aquageek — Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:24:33 GMT

I completely agree with Fort. While I believe running is overall the best exercise for the body (minus the risk of grave immediate injury) it really does very little for your swimming. The possible exception might be some run sprint training. Primarily, as Fort states, running destroys ankles. If you stop running and put that time to kicking, you'll be a convert. While many things might compliment swimming training, nothing substitutes for the actual activity itself. The one curious part of running is that if you take up serious running, you lose weight. This, in turn, probably helps your swimming. But, the weight loss helps, not the actual running, but it is sort of a chicken and egg conundrum.

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

The Fortress — Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:45:39 GMT

I'm still going with YES! I'm still going with NO! because, as Chris notes, there are other ways of cross training that help swimming more: weights, core, cycling, rowing, yoga ... But, if it's the only cross training you do, than running is more beneficial than sitting on the couch as Aquaman notes. I have 2 main issues with running (which I do really enjoy, miss greatly and is fantastic for remaining lean). First, it wreaks havoc with your ankles. Swimmers need loose flexy ankles to kick effectively; runners need strong inflexible ankles to run effectively and avoid injury. Hard to reconcile these two goals. And it's super easy to destroy your ankles running with sprains and whatnot. Second, running thrashes your legs. If all you want to do in the pool is swim and pull, this might not be so bad. However, my swimming is very kick based and I think many swimmers could benefit from kicking more. Not many masters seem to like to kick, but improving your kick can contribute hugely to faster swim times. But this is all difficult to achieve if you have leg fatigue from running (or plodding) and drylands. Having directly compared the two (running vs. drylands as cross training), I find it's decidedly better to spend your finite "leg energy" on drylands. My legs are much stronger from my dryland routine than they were from running (my fin addiction really helps build leg strength as well. :)) Stud, I also think you're improving just from more time in the water and focusing on technique. Plus, you've been hitting the ellipse machine and doing weights. So it's hard to isolate running as the source of, or significant factor in, your improvement.

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

hawk43 — Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:27:37 GMT

I agree with Chris. If you enjoy cross training and by adding it to your workout routine makes workouts more enjoyable, then do it. However, one thing I consider is whether or not an injury caused by cross training is worth the risk versus the potential benefit. So, early in my training season I bike and run to build strength in ways that are different from the pool (I lift/strength train throuhgout the year, backing off as I approach taper). Plus it takes some of the stress off my shoulders, because the season is long and the more dry leg work I do early in the season seems to help. So by this time in the winter season I am rarely running or biking because I do not want to pull a hamstring or twist an ankle on a curb, and risk being out of the pool during the final 2 months of the season. So I enjoy cross training and add it to build strength and endurance, but the risk of injury while running, open road biking is not worth it to me. Just my 2 cents.

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

aquageek — Wed, 31 Mar 2010 04:52:21 GMT

I had already been swimming 5x a week and if anything was getting slower. Running helped me shed 20+ pounds and built up my aerobic conditioning so I could handle the longer swims. I believe the question was, "Will crosstraining in running help my swimming?" Not, "are all fast runners fast swimmers?". For me it has been a huge success. If you had trained specifically for the 800 and longer with the same intensity as you trained for your running, your 800 would be faster than it is now. I'm not denying some cross over benefit but the same amount of time devoted to the actual sport will yield greater results. You don't see a bunch of swimmers taking up marathoning here two months before the meet in Atlanta.

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

aztimm — Wed, 31 Mar 2010 04:23:47 GMT

My counter to this is the zillions of talented runners who can't swim worth a flip. As Ande likes to point out, to swim faster you have to swim faster. I had already been swimming 5x a week and if anything was getting slower. Running helped me shed 20+ pounds and built up my aerobic conditioning so I could handle the longer swims. I believe the question was, "Will crosstraining in running help my swimming?" Not, "are all fast runners fast swimmers?". For me it has been a huge success.

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

aquageek — Wed, 31 Mar 2010 03:56:01 GMT

+1 I've found that as I've added (not substituted) distance running, my distance swimming has improved substantially. Prior to adding running, anything over a 4/500 was really a struggle in swimming. But once I got comfortable running 12-15 miles (and pacing them), I've had huge improvements to my 800+ swimming. My counter to this is the zillions of talented runners who can't swim worth a flip. As Ande likes to point out, to swim faster you have to swim faster.

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

aztimm — Wed, 31 Mar 2010 03:38:39 GMT

I'm still going with YES! +1 I've found that as I've added (not substituted) distance running, my distance swimming has improved substantially. Prior to adding running, anything over a 4/500 was really a struggle in swimming. But once I got comfortable running 12-15 miles (and pacing them), I've had huge improvements to my 800+ swimming.

RE: Does cross-training with running help swimming?

Former Member — Tue, 30 Mar 2010 13:43:33 GMT

I'm still going with YES!