USS times should count in USMS

RE: USS times should count in USMS

Former Member — Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:31:39 GMT

RE: USS times should count in USMS

Frank Thompson — Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:00:01 GMT

Yesterday in responding about Rob Peel records, I made two errors in my explanations. First Kevin DeForrest was the first person in masters to go under :45.00 and he had the record before Rob at :44.94 and second was the :22.48 that Rob did in the 50 SCM Free at the US Open was a FINA World Record because that swim was done in 1993 and FINA did not change the rule until two years later.

RE: USS times should count in USMS

Frank Thompson — Wed, 18 Oct 2006 02:53:24 GMT

This website pool records section lists the 25-29 50 free scy record as Robert Peel 19.83 dated 5/19/91. That's 5 years prior to the 96 Olympic trials. He would have been 25 or 26. He would have been in the 30-34 age group in 1996 I think. So, apparently, that's how he got the 30-34 LCM USMS national record for the 50 free. So, you're right. It is interesting that Rob got a national record for 50 free LCM for the USMS without even swimming the race at a USMS meet and Sabir got denied, even though he swam both records at the 2004 USMS National Championship. Racer X Allan: The reason Sabir Muhammed did not get credit for any of the three USMS National Records was because he did not get a copy of his birth certificate to USMS for record purposes. Myself, like Paul Smith and many others were a witness to probably the most outstanding sprint swimming in USMS history by the Race Club and in particular Sabir Muhaammed. Sabir went his best time ever in the 100 Yard Free and crushed the record of :44.39 with a time of :42.91 and was swimming next to Gary Hall Jr. at the time who went :44.27 and they both got the record. Obviously Gary got a copy of his birth certificate to USMS. Sabir best time in college was a :43.39 swimming for Stanford. His :19.44 was also a lifetime best when he broke the record of :19.83 in the 50 Free. Another record that you forgot to metion may be as impressive as the 100 Free Record. Sabir swam a :21.15 in the 50 Fly, breaking the record by over a second (22.16) and that was almost as fast as Paul Smith 50 Free of :20.95 at the same meet. This is hard to compare with with his best in the NCAA because they don't have a 50 Fly but he has the fastest relay split in history of :19.74 from the 200 Medley Relay from the 1998 NCAA Championships. He set an American Record of :46.18 in getting 2nd to Lars Frolander from SMU/Sweden who went :45.59 for the US Open and NCAA Record. He held the record for a year until Dod Wales did a :45.89 the next year. I think if he would have done the 100 Fly at this meet he could have possibly gone below :47.00 as a USMS swimmer and the crushed record of Brian Alderman of :48.51 from 1998 because of the way he swam that 100 Free. Everyone at the Nationals saw these swimmers because they basically stopped the meet to see them. Hall, Muhammed, and the others were hamming it up to get the crowds excited. And like Paul said they were treated like gods by everyone. Now I believe there is hope for Sabir to get these records. I believe the 60 day requirement is for the FINA records and I don't believe there is a statue of limitations for USMS records. I believe that pool measurements and timing tapes were sent in and the only responsibility he has to do is get that birth certificate in to get credit for those records. So the ball is in his court so to speak and if he doesn't care about it then his swims will basically be forgotten except for the people that saw them at the meet. I believe that his performances are the best to date of sprint swimming in USMS history. He took the 100 Free record and skipped the :43's completely and was only 1.29 seconds from the fastest 100 time ever recorded in 2004.

RE: USS times should count in USMS

Frank Thompson — Wed, 18 Oct 2006 02:10:35 GMT

This website pool records section lists the 25-29 50 free scy record as Robert Peel 19.83 dated 5/19/91. That's 5 years prior to the 96 Olympic trials. He would have been 25 or 26. He would have been in the 30-34 age group in 1996 I think. So, apparently, that's how he got the 30-34 LCM USMS national record for the 50 free. So, you're right. It is interesting that Rob got a national record for 50 free LCM for the USMS without even swimming the race at a USMS meet and Sabir got denied, even though he swam both records at the 2004 USMS National Championship. Racer X Allan and Lefty: I can speak as an authority on this since I was the Michigan LMSC Top Ten Recorder at the time. Rob Peel set both of his Short Course Yards records in Nashville at the 1991 Short Course Nationals. He obviously turned in his birth certificate and the records were not approached for many years. In fact he is the first person to go under :20.00 and :45.00 seconds in masters. His :19.83 and :44.39 swim broke the National Records set by Kevin DeForest. At the time those were outstanding swims and he went faster than anyone in that age group for 13 years. He did these times before the 1992 Olympic Trials. In the 1992 Olympic Trials, Rob Peel finished 9th place just missing making the final with a time of :22.97 and missing the USMS National Record held by Kevin DeForrest with the outstanding time of :22.59 from the 1983 LC Nationals in the same pool at Indy. Because he did not get the back up information required by USMS, he was listed in the Top Ten with a :24.14 from the 1992 Worlds that were in Indy also and after the Trials because they were held early that year in March. He was beaten by two guys in the 1992 World meet. He was beaten by a German swimmer in the 25-29 age group named Olaf Ahlers who did a time of :23.64 and he was beaten by one Rowdy Gaines in the 30-34 age group with a time of :23.94. Rob continued to train up until the 1996 Olympic Trials and got 6th place with a time of :22.80 and beat Tom Jager the former Olympian in the event who got 7th place at :22.85. I remember this well because when Tom was interviewed by NBC he said he swam so bad that he didn't deserve to be on the Olympic team. He also said he was not even the fastest in his age group referring to Rob Peel. Rob was 30 at the time and Tom was 31. That :22.80 is a USMS record because he followed the USMS requirements at the time. It was not a FINA World Record because that was the first year that the FINA rule was instituted that stated "All World Records must be in Sanctioned Masters Meets", which I believe is still the policy today. One major change is that there was no requirement for a pool measurement if the swim was a non record in a bulkhead pool, which is not the case today. Rob Peel also set a SCM USMS Record in the 50 Free at :22.48 at the US Open in Ann Arbor in 1993. That swim was not a FINA World Record and has since been tied by Ed Wagner who did get credit for the World Record because he performed the swim at a Masters meet per FINA rules. I was at this meet and remember it well because Michigan Masters had two swimmers at the time set records at this meet (Rob Peel and Shelia Taormina) and paperwork had to be submitted for these records to count. www.michiganmasters.com/.../MISCYM.pdf www.michiganmasters.com/.../MILONGME06.pdf

RE: USS times should count in USMS

Former Member — Tue, 17 Oct 2006 09:21:31 GMT

I am one who swims in both USS and USMS meets. I basically do the USS meets in the Fall until the kids start high school season then switch over to the masters meets. However, usually my "big" meet is with the kids the one I shave and taper for. I have achieved many top 10 times, however, I never bother to submit them. The whole process seems to complicated and time consuming to me. For me its about the love of the sport and trying to improve each year. That being said, I do cruise the top ten to see where I would have placed, I use that as my motivation. If I would have taken my big long course meet this past summer and stuck my times in the rankings at worlds, I would have been 3rd in the fly's in the 40yr age group. To me though its personal, improving my times is most important and where ever I may fall on the rankings so be it. At the USS meets, I could get last place for all I care but if I achieved a best time I would be satisfied. Greg

RE: USS times should count in USMS

Former Member — Tue, 17 Oct 2006 09:03:12 GMT

RE: USS times should count in USMS

Former Member — Tue, 17 Oct 2006 08:25:11 GMT

Interesting that Rob Peel's swim is continually referenced in this discussion because that was swam at a US meet, not USMS meet; Specifically at the 1996 Olympic trials. Rob was doing 50 yard sprints before finals at my conference meet that February (1996), I think he went a 20.9 +/- .1 three times in about 10 minutes.

RE: USS times should count in USMS

Muppet — Mon, 16 Oct 2006 04:10:23 GMT

I am all for having swimmers bridge boundaries between USMS and USAS. Why not allow more opportunities for swimmers to compete - especially in areas of the country where either USMS or USAS programs are less densely concentrated... As for records and Top Ten, however, I belive distinctions need to be made. I have seen many examples of folks who train with and and swim in only USAS meets - yet sign up with USMS just to have their times count toward USMS top times too?? I would rather get destroyed by a regular USAS/USMS crossover (like Mr. Smith, or even Gary Hall Jr.) than by someone looking for one-time recognition. At least we know they're regular USMS competitors. I will be the first to admit I am biased on this issue. Not only have I been shafted out of Top 10s by these folks, but I also never swam in a USS or NCAA program, which makes me take real pride in achieving Top 10-esque results.

RE: USS times should count in USMS

Former Member — Sun, 15 Oct 2006 16:48:29 GMT

It seems odd that the pool measurements were sufficient for the FINA (non-masters) world records that were set at the Pan Pacs to be recognized but not for USMS records. Would they have measured the bulkhead for the sessions where world records were set but not other sessions? Actually, is there a bulkhead at that pool?

RE: USS times should count in USMS

Frank Thompson — Sun, 15 Oct 2006 12:06:20 GMT

RacerX: It sound like you were in agreement with my initial hesitation about not permitting USMS records to be broken by a USS non-USMS Olympian who never swims in masters meets. Although I subsequently said that I understood Paul Smith's argument. I still think this issue deserves more input from folks that are not Top 10 in the world. I was just wondering about what they might think of purely USS elite swimmers crashing their party or whether they, like FINA, might think it's not in the spirit of masters swimming. Or maybe they don't care since they are already facing ex-Olympians. I agree Gary Hall's record should count. I clearly said that before. He is a masters swimmer too. I hope he does all the darn paperwork to get credit. My kids and I were at Worlds and we were saddened by his absence. I think they were more interested in watching him race than their own creaky Mom. And I like the 50 free too. It is my only freestyle event at the moment. :) Leslie: If Gary would have filled out the USMS Record Applications within 60 days of the swim at the Pan Pacs and went thru the applicable procedures stated on the application he would have gotten a USMS Record but not a FINA World Record because again this was not a Masters sanction meet and FINA will only accept swims from masters competitions for FINA World Records. If he would have swam at Stanford at Worlds he would have gotten the World Record because it was a Sanctioned Masters meet. Until this is changed, this will be the FINA policy. Its the swimmers responsibility in non masters meets to make sure the requirements are taken care of. These requirements include getting a copy of the heat sheet, backup timing tape, and signitures of the officials as proof of the swim. Getting a copy of the birth certificate as proof of age if this has not been done. In the last 3 years USMS has made a rule that you must have proof of pool measurement for any USMS record to count. If it was a bulkhead pool, you as a swimmer would have to take measurements of the pool before and after the sessions of the swim. How many people like Gary Hall Jr. are going to take that responsibilty to do this in a non masters meet, especially one of the big TV international meets of the year? Probably none of them because its not one of there big priorities in life. This last requirement is the one where swimmers just aren't going to deal with because it could be a hassle getting a pool measurement and its not the host meets responsibilty to do this. All of the other stuff is pretty straight forward. There have been many USMS registered masters swimmers thru the years that have gone to USA meets of all types and have broken USMS records and they have been published everywhere. But because the paperwork was not done, those swims go basically ignored in USMS.

RE: USS times should count in USMS

Former Member — Sun, 15 Oct 2006 10:25:07 GMT

I agree with Paul & Leslie. I feel privileged to compete in the same pool as some of these extraordinary swimmers of all ages and the less artificial barriers are erected to record their performances, the better. I felt that way when I started swimming masters in 84-85 and still feel the same way. What has also happened over the past twenty years is that I have developed a great appreciation for all the remarkable people who I have met through masters who are not elite but have overcome adversity in one form or another just to compete at their own level. Whatever we can do to make people of all levels feel included is a good thing. Not an official FINA objective, however, I fear.

RE: USS times should count in USMS

Former Member — Sun, 15 Oct 2006 09:07:44 GMT

www.sabirswims.com Paul, I was being sarcastic. Sabir does not make any comments about USMS at all. If you read his bio, it includes all his major accomplishments in swimming including the 2004 olympic trials. He makes no mention at all of the fact that he broke two national records in the USMS Nationals and beat Gary Hall in the process in the Spring just before the Olympic trials. It is as if the USMS does not exist to him. I wonder why that might be? This guy could be a major asset to the USMS now, and into the future. Rules can be bent or broken, from time to time, if it's for a good reason. Sabir's national records should be reinstated. 19.44 is the National record for all age groups. Therefore, his age is actually pointless. He happened to be 29, so, he should get the 25-29 record proof of age or not. If he swam in the 20-24 it would still be the record, same for 30-34. Making people jump through hoops for age, when they don't even drug test, seems a bit silly to me.

RE: USS times should count in USMS

Former Member — Sun, 15 Oct 2006 06:12:08 GMT

Lindsay, It goes far beyond odd!:frustrated: Add to that the stripping of Sabir Muhammad's National Records for the 50 free and 100 free SCY at the 2004 Nationals just because he didn't turn in a birth certificate. Go to his website and see what he has to say about USMS.

RE: USS times should count in USMS

The Fortress — Sun, 15 Oct 2006 05:28:01 GMT

Paul: I agree completely with you that mediocrity, political correctness and enhancing kids' self esteem by constantly telling them how wonderful they are have taken over the world. Similarly, kids now do so many activities that they don't strive for excellence in anything. I have told my kids to do the opposite and take an "angular" rather take a "diffuse" approach to life. I don't care if they're on the school yearbook committee one iota. I just want them to attempt to be really good at something. The world revolves around winning, like it or not. To say it ain't so is to handicap your child. And you are right that masters swimmers should not be exempt from that reality. Thankfully, we can define "winning" in different and individual ways as you suggested -- whether its finishing their first 10K swim, doing a personal best, setting a record or becoming more fit. I personally feel pretty darn pleased with myself that I didn't quit swimming after horrific battles with tendonitis my entire first year back.I guess that's why, after mulling it over, I ultimately agreed with your conclusions about USMS records. I just felt like other people might feel differently, and as every has said, this is a site for expressing your views!

RE: USS times should count in USMS

Paul Smith — Sun, 15 Oct 2006 02:32:48 GMT

Racer X......I will say this...as much as I want to see more alignment between USS/USMS I won't fault either organization for deciding theyre own rules. If anyone is going to play in either camp and is serious about records, times, etc. than they need to be sure to research and follow protocal. As for Sabir.....I have not gone to his sight but if he truly is dissing on USMS than I've lost some repect for him. He was treated like a God at that meet, the pool decks packed 5 ' deep every time he or a Race Club swimmer got on the blocks and starts delayed beacuse of the loud cheering. If he was really wanting to take down some records he should take a few minutes to talk with/email/read how things are run here......since we set records by age proving it is a necessity!

RE: USS times should count in USMS

Paul Smith — Sun, 15 Oct 2006 02:11:16 GMT

"Maybe carried to a logical extreme, your argument is right and Olympians should be able to claim USMS records because what you're really after is a true list of the best times performed by anyone in any meet in that age bracket. Part of me is just worried that the vast majority of masters swimmers, who aren't as talented and willing to get their butts whupped in USS meets, might find that purism disheartening. They might just want USS-only Olympians to stay in their own USS venue so that they can have some fun at their own masters meets swimming against super talented masters swimmers or those who are just trying to stay fit and have fun competing." Leslie, I wanted to get back to what you wrote earlier (above) and make two comments: 1) I think the number of active USS swimmers who swim USMS meets is VERY small and probably always will be.....but I would like to see that change. When guys like Gary, Sabir, Josh Davis, etc. do show up (like Indy a few years ago and Worlds)..the reception they get is incredible and the overall interest in swimming only gets better. 2) As for any of us getting our butts whupped and choosing to be disheartened vs. motivated than shame on us and for the example we send to our kids and other swimmers! VERY few athletes every go on to elite status, far more who toil thru the agr group circuits have to learn to live with and learn from debate everyday.....it saddens me that much of societys direction these days is one of taaking competition out....worrying about peolpes feelings getting hurt so no more first place awards, no more valedictorians, no more dodge ball...etc. etc. The world is a competitive place and even in masters All of us have to learn to find motivation thru defeat, thru injuries, thru lack of proper coaching, thru crappy pools, thru bad weather........

RE: USS times should count in USMS

Former Member — Sat, 14 Oct 2006 13:58:34 GMT

I hear all this talk of "noodling" on this website. Please define. Perhaps this link to an older thread will shed some light on noodling: forums.usms.org/showthread.php By the way, I agree that the times should count. I want to measure myself (with my competition blinders in place) against anyone in my age group who is swimming competitively.

RE: USS times should count in USMS

ljlete — Sat, 14 Oct 2006 12:59:45 GMT

Frank, Two things: 1) All USA Swimming meets are automatically recognized as are all meets of FINA member nations. 2) When we get the dual sanctioning all straightened out, USMS members will be able to have the advantages of both. They can swim with the kids in a USMS meet and therefore set FINA records. So all we have to do is to get the big USA Swimming meets sanctioned by USMS. The trick here is that all sides must agree to do this and the swimmer must be swimming as a USMS member. Of course that is a stretch since USA Swimming Nationals, for example, is for USA Swimming members only! But for those USMS members who can get into a "regular" fast meet, it may help. Leo

RE: USS times should count in USMS

Frank Thompson — Sat, 14 Oct 2006 12:40:29 GMT

From my understanding anyone who goes in a USS meet that is USMS registered is eligible for a USMS record as long as they meet the requirements in the USMS rule book. You must have these reqiurements meet. 1. The meet must be recognized by USMS and sanctioned by USS for the times to count. 2. You must show proof of results and have proof that a pool measurement has been made. For fixed wall pools, if you have one done since 2003 and there are no structual changes then you are ok. If you have a surveyors report that this was done since construction and no structural changes have happen to the facilty then you are ok. If its a bulkhead facility, it must be measured accordinly to USMS rules. I won't state what those are because they are readily available in the USMS rule book and the LMSC Handbook. 3. If you break a USMS or FINA World Record in a Master Meet you must meet the requirements of setting that record. You have 60 days to get that application with the proper documentation. Now someone hear mentioned Sabir Muhammed breaking Rob Peel's record in 2004 for the 50 Free. In fact he broke both USMS records for the 50 and 100 Free and was faster than Gary Hall's current 100 record. The reason he did not get credit for either of the records is because he did not get his birth certificate within 60 days of the swim and did not get credit for the record. He is listed in the 2004 Top Ten as first place and garnered All American Status from the swims but has a NV by his time and it seems that was never converted to get credit for the time as a USMS National Record. 3. You can only break a USMS Record in a USA Swimming meet. It does not matter what type of meet it is but FINA will only let masters swimmers set World Records in masters meets. This rule went into effect in 1996 and all masters federations were told to strip anyone that they knew in the past that did not swim the Word Records in Masters meets. I remember this because I was our LMSC Top Ten recorder at the time and Rob Peel and Shelia Taormina were striped of FINA World Records done before 1996. Even if you go to a FINA Sanctioned meet such as a World Cup the swim will not count as a FINA World Record. This happened to Jack Groselle when he thought he set a World Record in FINA World Cup SCM meet but it was not a Masters sanctioned meet, so no record. 4. To answer Paul Smith questions about his relay and setting records. If you want the relay to set a USMS record you have to have everyone registered with USMS on the same team. Meaning get Rowdy off Gold Coast Masters and with Team TYR, so you are all on the same club. If he has not done this then you better getting moving right now. Meaning you have to go thru the transfer requirements that you did to leave Colorado which I believe is 60 days. Meaning if that meet is in December, then I believe you are SOO Luck and your relay would not count for a USMS Record. As you already know, regardless of the transfer requirements you can't set a World Record if its not a sanctioned masters meet. I would hate to see you go to all of the work to do this and have the Relay record not count because you did not follow the requirements very similar to when in 2004 you guys went out of order from what was written on your relay card and Rowdy was denied the 50 National Record in his age group. Now if you don't like this FINA rule which a lot of people don't, then you have to let our FINA rep know and get it changed like we were talking about doing with National Delegation entry as a opposed to the current Club entry for swimmers at the FINA World Masters Swimming Championships. I know why FINA did this and my opinion is that they felt people that break records in non masters meets are truly not masters swimmers or they would be breaking them in Sanctioned masters meets. It was said that they did not want Olympians and World Class swimmers swimming in non masters competitions and be able to break masters World Records by just merly registering and never swimming in masters competitions. They did not feel it was in the spirt and interest of masters swimming. This was the feeling back in 1996. Its been 10 years since someone challenged this. You and Goodsmith should go for it and challenge this if you feel this is wrong and unfair.

RE: USS times should count in USMS

Former Member — Sat, 14 Oct 2006 11:48:46 GMT

Hi Leslie, Please re-read my first post to John on this topic. I am definetly not a speed demon. I am old and slow. I do enjoy the 50 free despite these two facts:D Just to reiterate, Gary Hall Jr. was entered as a FINA Worlds partcipant. So, according to the rules, he had to be an active, dues paying USMS member when he swam at Pan Pacs and broke the USMS and FINA Masters World record for the 50 free. My recollection of the entry process for the FINA Worlds required a current USMS membership number. I really wish he was there. I had my video camera at the ready. More importantly, I had a kickboard and an indelible pen ready to get an autograph for my 6 year old nephew for his birthday. I showed him the video of both my sister and I swimming the 50, but it lacked the pizzaz of the planned birthday program. Frank Thompson's most excellent post on FINA's stand simply confirms my very first statement on this thread.

RE: USS times should count in USMS

Former Member — Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:27:48 GMT

Sorry to bring this up again, but this seems to be the perfect test case for all the above discussion. My read is Gary takes the 30-34 USMS national record for the LCM 50 free at 22.45 from Rob Peel (22.81). However, due to more strict rules, he does not take the FINA Masters World record from Rowdy Gaines (23.21 in 1990)? Frank that Sabir deal seems rediculous to me, by the way. he broke both records at the USMS nationals, he should get the records birth cert or not. How can his brith cert matter? I think he was 29 at the time. Its not like he was really 24 swimming up age. If he was 30 and swimming down, even better.

RE: USS times should count in USMS

ljlete — Sat, 14 Oct 2006 08:58:29 GMT

Frank, Another way of looking a dual sanctioned meets is that we are holding two meets in the same place at the same time. One of the options available would be to comix the meets in a manner that looks like it is one meet (as opposed to giving one half of the pool to one organization and the other half to the other). So in this case, we dynamically assign lanes to each of the two meets depending upon which meet needs it. For example, in the heat prior to you getting up to swim in lane 4, there is a 16 year old USA Swimming kid wondering why/how this old guy like you (and me) is seeded in the heat faster than he. He was swimming the the USA Swimming meet in what was a USA Swimming lane at the time and you are swimming in the USMS meet in the same lane that is now assigned to USMS. So FINA doesn't have to worry about what kind of meet it is because it is a USMS meet. About your other comment, unless someone has dual membership, there is no swimming in the other organization's meets. Hope this helps, Leo

RE: USS times should count in USMS

Former Member — Sat, 14 Oct 2006 07:54:45 GMT

If you are correct, then you make it sound more like a mere right for a dues paying club member who excelled than a true or real national record or ranking for a particular age group. I could be wrong but I don't think USMS keeps records for times set by US citizens, I think they keep records for times set by USMS members. As I understand it Ian Thorpe could buy a USMS membership and set USMS records.

RE: USS times should count in USMS

Frank Thompson — Sat, 14 Oct 2006 01:47:30 GMT

Leo: Did FINA sign off on this about having swims from dual sanctioned meets count for World Records? I can see how it would meet the requirements because it would have a dual sanction and thus be considered a Masters meet. I just remember 10 years or so ago that they did not want to accept times from meets like Olympic Trials, Nationals, etc because they didn't like the fact that it was not considered Masters Swimmng but more like Swimming because it was only inclusive to what USA requirements are even if the swimmer was USMS registered. Meaning that you would have to make time cuts and it would not be open to all masters swimmers like masters meet are. I also heard and I am not sure if its true, that other FINA federations do not count swims by masters swimmers in Swimming events and can only count times done in Masters competition toward masters records in there Federations, similar to what FINA does now. This is interesting because I never thought of the dual sanction and how that could be acceptable to FINA as a Masters meet. I wonder what Walt Reid thinks about this? He was involved heavily with this back then as he is today and this would be quite a change from the policy they set 10 years ago and I believe they still follow. I do remember reading about how these competitions were inclusive to certain individuals that made time cuts in non masters competitions but this was before FINA had time cuts for the World Championship meets, so today even in FINA meets it would not be open to every masters swimmer and that arguement would be out the window today. One more thing, I noticed you said that USMS swimmers can swim with the kids in a USMS meet so they have the advantages of both. Does this mean kids can swim in USMS sanctioned meets if they are just USA registered because of a dual sanction with both USA and USMS? I always thought it was for USMS swimmers to swim in USA swimming meets and not USA swimmers to swim in USMS meets without proper registration meaning they would have to be 18 to swim via USMS rules. I am thinking you meant USMS swimmers can swim with the kids in USA meet and not USMS meet? Or am I reading this wrong.

RE: USS times should count in USMS

knelson — Sat, 14 Oct 2006 01:16:31 GMT

Maybe we should categorize records differently. Maybe it should be based on training. Who swims 2x a week, who trains 5x, who trains around the clock with a college team and is a professional masters swimmer, etc. Don't forget the late bloomers division!