Help with sprinting strategy

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Former Member — Thu, 12 Oct 2006 15:58:50 GMT

I don't want to do sets of 10 x 200 fly ever again. 10 x 200 Fly?!! No wonder you took a hiatus from swimming!

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Former Member — Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:20:46 GMT

Frank, Buck Dawson a great friend of mine I talked to him a couple of years ago on the telephone he has a real problem hearing. If you see him mention my name he will tell you a few stories about what a nut I am.

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Former Member — Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:09:43 GMT

I completely agree with this. When we were kids, I think survival mode kicked in... and sooner or later you figured out a way to swim more efficiently in an effort to minimize the suffering. originally posted by Quicksilver I like the way you mentioned the suffering aspect there...LOL!! You are absolutely right about that....We were forced to develop better technique and energy efficiency in our strokes just to survive the daily onslaught of grueling workouts! It was an interesting philosophy of our agegroup coaches back then.....Survival of the fittest kind of approach (very Darwinistic ...LOL!). Kind of a cruel way of accomplishing a goal though IMO! Newmastersswimmer

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Former Member — Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:02:27 GMT

.....but I am much more focused on the mechanics of swimming (and energy efficiency...etc..) as an older swimmer than I was as a younger swimmer. I completely agree with this. When we were kids, I think survival mode kicked in... and sooner or later you figured out a way to swim more efficiently in an effort to minimize the suffering. These days I concentrate more on technique...and less on physical exhaustion. Older means wiser.

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Former Member — Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:35:02 GMT

It's the fact that you don't have a deep swimming background that makes you more open to ideas (you might call it the "emerging paradigm") that may not fit the "prevailing paradigm" that more experienced swimmers -- including me -- grew up with. Many achieved a degree of success with that approach and some who did may resist ideas that don't match that worldview. Originally posted by Terry Laughlin Actually I do have a pretty extensive swimming background Terry.....BUT I haven't been involved in Masters swimming for very long. When I grew up as an agegroup swimmer, over-distancing and swimming long sets with very short intervals was the prevailing philosophy. I think I gained a lot from that philosophy (don't get me wrong)....but I also became a little burned out on swimming as a kid when we swam somewhere around 20,000 meters a day in the summer (2 10,000 meter practices a day) ....where we would aften swim sets like 20 200's on some rediculous interval (like somewhere in the range of 2:30-2:40 in LCM )....I remember doing 20 100's on the 1:05 in SCY on a routine basis when we were around 15-16 years of age. The problem was that I don't recall the coaches really focusing on our technique that much.....it was much more about endurance training. I like the idea of swimming slow to focus on technique and then gradually picking up the pace while maintaining proper technique. I still believe in doing some hard sets in a workout (like maybe one main set that has a challenging interval).....but I am much more focused on the mechanics of swimming (and energy efficiency...etc..) as an older swimmer than I was as a younger swimmer. Newmastersswimmer

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

The Fortress — Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:14:59 GMT

Newmastersswimmer: I completely agree with you. After my grueling youth, subsequent shoulder injury and a nasty college coach, I was totally burned out on swimming and stayed away for almost 24 years. I actually only got back in the pool because I got a stress fracture from running too much. But now I'm glad I did because I am really enjoying it. But I stay away from overdistance. I don't want to do sets of 10 x 200 fly ever again.

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Former Member — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 16:47:06 GMT

Weismuller was great in his day but face it, his stroke wasn't that great compared to current top level freestylers. The guy is a total legend, no doubt, but how much faster would he have been if he was born 60-70 years later? Would he have crushed the field and been just as unbeatable in the 1980s, 90s or today? Would he have been able to beat Popoff or Hoogie if he had similar training and background? Who knows, but you'll have to admit the level of competition and training across the board has changed significantly in the last half century. He probably would have been great regardless of the decade in my opion. Unbeatable today as he was back then..... probably not in my opinion. Genetics play a huge key roll regardless of smaller stroke refinements. What's important is that you measure each great performer within his own time. I would apply that rule to stroke technique and training philosophies as well. Swimming can be a sport of fads too. New stroke techniques come and go with new champions all too often. Sometimes these new techniques are useful, sometimes they are not so useful and are merely overcome due to the swimmers physical (genetic) superiority. There are many examples of great swimmers and performances with average technique..... sometimes its their grit and pure talent that pulls them to the wall first. Weismuller was phenomenal...... but I'd be careful how you compare him to performances today. John Smith

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Former Member — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 15:21:19 GMT

Ad to the fact the swim wear of 1930s weighed a ton they were made of wool. My coach had great stories about Johnny W from the Olympics he competed in. He said Johnny pulled his arms through the water almost even with his shoulders not down the center, had very flat shoulder postion, no roll. My coach also said the 1932 mens USA swim team were all tall but the little Japanese swimmers showed everyone that you do not have to be tall he was 5"3". He had me pull don the center as he said all your strength is in the center, he used to say mountain climbers used one rope to help them climb, he also had me pulling close to the body with my hands saying you have to swim like a mountain climber.

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Former Member — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:52:34 GMT

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Former Member — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:39:29 GMT

That is a very interesting passage from Weismuller's book Terry. His age group swimming coach "Bach" seemed to be years ahead of his time when it came to understanding the sport of competitive swimming. I also had no idea that Johnny Weismuller had been sub 50 in the 100 yard freestyle (and at 36)......How many swimmers in USMS in the 35 - 39 agegroup swim a sub 50 100 free today?....Not many is my guess....and this guy did it way back before most of us were ever born (except maybe you Terry...LOL!!). I also want to say that I have been carefully reading all of your postings on this forum as well as others who both oppose your viewpoints and those who seem to agree predominantly with your views. I am not an Elite swimmer like the Smiths or the Raz (or some of the other regular posters).....so maybe my opinions dopn't carry the same weight as theirs do....BUT I will say that I find your views in general to be very logical....Moving through water is so much different than moving on land and its this difference between land and water that makes swimming so much different than land sports....and the way you train in water....as well as the proper technique needed to excel in water is the real focus....and thats what both you and this guy "Bach" seem to have in common. I also beleive in relaxing my recovery as much as possible and establishing a good "feel for the water" with my stroke in much the same way as what you have been describing in your postings....While I'm not "yet" amongst the elite in my agegroup here at USMS, I think that I could be if I train more consistently and focus on all the key ideas that you have been talking about. I appreciate all your input Terry! BTW you are friends with Emmit Hines from Houston right? I had the pleasure of meeting and talking with him about a year ago or so at one of his practices.....I really enjoyed that conversation....he also seems to be a real visionary about proper swimming mechanics and such....All just my humble opinion though....So relax geek and gull....We all have our own opinions and this is the forum to express them...I also pay close attention to what you guys say too....its a good thing to see healthy debates with differing viewpoints in order to weigh all the opinions on the subject before estabilishing one's own opinions sometimes. Newmastersswimmer

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Former Member — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:10:58 GMT

Why the negative take on machines? They give you support while lifting...and this alone could prevent a movement which jars the back. One bad twist is all it takes to create a kink that stays with you for a while. #2. Absolutely no machines except for the leg curl, and even with that, do it one leg at a time. Anything that does not allow you to stabilize, control your body in space, balance, etc. etc. etc. is HORRIBLE for athletes. Also...Thanks for that post Terry.

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Former Member — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 09:48:25 GMT

Come clean, Terry. In what way 'not like Debbie'?

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Former Member — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 07:05:32 GMT

We all called him Tarzan of the grapes, because he loved his wine. But there are quite a few really nice stories that I sent to a web site several years ago. I will try to locate that site and post it. It was all about J W. But I will search them out on my old computer a Macintosh that is now stored under our bed and has not been used for 10 years.

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Former Member — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 06:51:51 GMT

Johnny was a great guy he travelled with the marathon swim circuit for for a couple of years (official starter at several of the races). He would have diner with us and he was always letting out his Tarzan call during the meal. He loved his wine. I have lots of personal stories about him. I said this once before to you: Write it down!!!!!! Some day, some one will be trying to get their Ph.D. in history writing about swimming and they would name their first child after you if they had this as reference material. An aquaintence of mine once did his Ph.D. on the history of racewalking and was frustrated by not even being able to find such basics as who won which national championship in some years. If nothing else, Canada probably has a national oral history project and they might want to send someone to record whatever you wanted to tell them - no writing required. -LBJ

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Frank Thompson — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 06:09:26 GMT

Terry: I learned most about the Spence bothers in the three excellent books that I have about Johnny Weismuller. There was a book called "Water Weissmuller" that I bought at the ISHOF store when I was there for the USMS Nationals in 1995. I will have to look and see who the author is when I get home tonight. When I was at the ISHOF store in 2002 after the YMCA Nationals, I bought the book "Weismuller Twice Hero" by David Fury that was published in 2001. I am not sure if you can get these books from ISHOF anymore but they are all excellent with all types of invaluable history. I know you can't get the American Crawl book easily but I have seen some out there. The newest book that I want to get came out a couple of years ago called "Tarzen My Father" written by his son and Walter Reed. Also when I went to the LC Nationals at Rutgers in 2003 as I was walking the halls I noticed a display in a trophy case that had detail stories of Walter Spence and his two brothers. I never swam at Arden Hills but my friend Sally Guthrie grew up in Sacramento and knew all about the famous swimmers such as Debbie Meyer and Mike Burton. I actually got to talk to Debbie Meyer quite a bit at the World Meet this summer and did not know she was swimming in the meet because I did not know her new name which is Weber. I got her to sign several items and she was kinda of surprised that a lot of copies of the book "50 Meter Jungle" were still around and told me she signed several copies for people that were at the meet. She told me that Arden Hills Swim Club was still around but is a sad state today and nothing like it was when Sherm started the club. She told me they were using her name to promote the club without her expressed permission. I visited Arden Hills after the World Meet and could not believe what it has turned into. I drove up to club and notice they had nothing but valet parking and the club house had nothing but marble floors. They had all these salons and shops in the clubhouse. I asked to see the pool and they said absolutely not. This is a club that is exclusive to members only and I would have to be a guest of a member just to see the pool and the Swimming room where all of the history of the club was. Sherm sold this fine historic swimming club and its turned into some giant spa with swimming and tennis for the wealthy. How sad because at one time it was a close rival to the Santa Clara Swim Club as far as Olympic Swimmers. To not highjack this thread any further, I will bring up and old post to these threads that talks about other historical books about swimming.

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Frank Thompson — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 04:55:16 GMT

Terry: If you don't get that book you ordered "Swimming the American Crawl" let me know. I have several copies and bought one about 2 years ago for $2.00 and I will give it to you free as a gift. I have read the book and have found some of the concepts way ahead of there time. Sherm Chavor, who was Mark Spitz's coach at Arden Hills said that if Johnny Weismuller would have trained the way people in the late 1960's and early 1970's did he would be perhaps be as great as anyone of that era and could have easily been the equal of Spitz in his opinion. He said this in the book he wrote called "The 50 Meter Jungle" that came out back in 1973. He also said that Buster Crabb would get clobbered because unlike Johnny he had stroke and body position defficiences and regardless of a change in training techniques he would not be able to keep up with the swimmers of the 1970's where he thought Johnny would. I am glad you brought up the Spence brothers because Water Spence has an NCAA Record that will never be broken especially with the new NCAA rules regarding eligibility. He was the NCAA high point scorer for Rutgers at the age of 34 and is the oldest NCAA champion ever. It was a fact that has a professional Johnny Weismuller did a :48.5, while coaching the Spence brothers but it did not count and his record of :51.4 for the 100 Yard Free stood until 1944 when Alan Ford broke it at :50.8, but it was tied by 4 guys and I personally know one of guys that tied the record in 1942 named Bill Prew. I had the pleasure of meeting Johnny purely out of luck. I was at the ISHOF a couple of days after the 1983 Short Course Nationals that were held there. I was in the Hall when Buck Dawson said that Johhny would be stopping by in the next hour. I was going to go swimming and workout but I thought I am going to stay here and meet this guy. He came by and did not look well at all. I remember how sad I was to see him in this state. He was real nice and was glad that the Masters program seemed to be taking off. He didn't say much and I didn't ask him anything and was stunned to finally meet this legend that I grew up with watching Tarzen and later Jungle Jim. I believe he died the next year sometime in 1984.

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Former Member — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:59:03 GMT

Sprinters need more fast twich muscle fibers and these are not really developed by weight lifting, better to use plyometrics. Great sprinters have up to 80% fast and superfast muscle. I found this site a few moths ago and find it interesting www.readysetgofitness.com/.../11_muscle_fiber_types.html

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Former Member — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:41:31 GMT

Weight training is a whole other and very complex discussion. Suffice to say that most of the top LCM swimmers in the world have relatively unremarkable muscle size and definition, but are well proportioned and supple in appearance. They are "water-strong" but not necessarily land-strong. If land strength were that advantageous powerlifters would hold swimming records. We are talking about sprinting here and I belive weight lifting is esencial to acheiving maximum performance. nearly every sprinter in the olympics lifts weights.

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Former Member — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 12:02:18 GMT

PS: Will you swim MIMS again in the future? TI will become a prominent sponsor of Manhattan Island Foundation in 2007 and we plan to enter one or more relays. I'd like to, but I'm not sure. Since I didn't make it this year (there is a thread over in the open water forum where I discussed this - actually, it covers both 2005 & 2006 MIMS), it sticks in my craw, but I have a bunch of things on my plate that need to be dealt with first. Also, registration opens on 1 November this year and I'm not going to have things in order by then. Still... -LBJ

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Former Member — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 10:21:10 GMT

Plyometrics sound good, although I haven't had time to try it. My son tells me they can produce injuries easily, though for us middle aged folks. Pool Bound polymetrics are easier on the muscles and give the same results. www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/.../plyometrics-swimming.html

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Former Member — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 09:44:02 GMT

Weights are great for accentuating the effect of taper at the end of the season. Weights help to "break you down" and then rest to rebuild. I would be careful Evil Smith to draw conclusions between long course and short course performances. Note, your 50m free and fly were sharp, but you also loafed the first half of the 200m free and back halfed it well like you usually do when you are in good middle distance shape. That race was an anomally and should be thrown out of your analysis. Your 100m free this summer was out way too slow as well. No one in their right mind negative splits a 100m free. Note, I won't tell the readers on this forum who had a faster time in this event. Hell hath frozen that day. Proper weights make the sprinter..... proper weights make the taper better. John smith

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Former Member — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 06:22:01 GMT

read this, its written by the sprint coach at penn state. www.theraceclub.net/.../viewtopic.php My eyes glazed over on a lot of this, but the conclusion (along with the signature) really got my attention: “If you remember nothing else, remember these few points. #1. Train to be a sprinter, not a weightlifter. #2. Absolutely no machines except for the leg curl, and even with that, do it one leg at a time. Anything that does not allow you to stabilize, control your body in space, balance, etc. etc. etc. is HORRIBLE for athletes. #3. Get the freak pissed off in the weight room. LIFTING IS NOT NICE. Get some headphones and get some music that gets your juices flowing. Testosterone is a good thing, get it going!!!! A sprinter must absolutely have the mindset of a freaking animal. NO EXCEPTIONS!!! _________________ Hammer Down Is A Way Of Life” .... Way out of my league, but interesting to see what mindset is expected.

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Former Member — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 06:05:58 GMT

Cool read. This bit really got my attention: “Researchers show that anaerobic exercise (short, quick-burst, get you winded fast) is the type of fitness training that increases exercise-induced growth hormone. And growth hormone is, without question, the most powerful body fat-reducing, muscle-toning, anti-aging, and anti-middle-aging agent known in science.” I had to google “plyometrics”... and got this: “In recent years this distinct method of training for power or explosiveness has been termed plyometrics. Whatever the origins of the word the term is used to describe the method of training which seeks to enhance the explosive reaction of the individual through powerful muscular contractions as a result of rapid eccentric contractions.” I have never really focused on sprint activity because it seemed out of my reach, but I guess I should rethink this. A few months ago I added a segment to my practice of doing as many 50 fly as I could do in 15min. Then it was 6 or 7. Now it is 8 or 9. I guess that qualifies as sprint activity, but (as always) I usually wait till I’m not gasping for breath and my heart rate is something less than that of a rabbit pursued by a fox. Timed intervals would probably be better based on what I see and hear, but I prefer to simply listen to my body. I think allowing your heart to regain it's composure might be good for your training as well as allowing to you live! I would not wait for a sub 100 pulse but I usually wait for something around the 120 -130 range between sprints. One need not overexert themselves to show improvement. I often do 50 freestyle sprints and sometimes 25's...the 25's start with a slow 25 and then I rip and tear all the way home. I don't try to force as many as i can into a time frame, I just recover a bit in between swims and keep up the rhythm. It is more fun than swimming boring 100 repeats and I think it probably does more good for your endurance, strength, and speed. Just my opinion though. :2cents:

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Former Member — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 05:59:52 GMT

read this, its written by the sprint coach at penn state. www.theraceclub.net/.../viewtopic.php

RE: Help with sprinting strategy

Paul Smith — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 05:55:10 GMT

Evil one.....on a serious note (I know...hard to believe)...you and I have talked about this at length and one thing we both agree on is part of the reason we are swimming the times that we are as masters is the substanial increase in strength we both had vs. in college. In my case I'm 30lbs heavier (although 15 of that is fat)....but I never lifted in high school and was so over trained and broken down in college couldn't put on weight/muscle. Taking a dozen years off and playing volleybal, skiing, tennis, climbing, kayaking.....and eating all lead to a pretty big inrease in strength. PS: when are we going to drag Frenchy la Geek behind the woodshed and beat the crap out of him....we should have had Rowdy do it when he was down there!