Is my volume enough?

RE: Is my volume enough?

Former Member — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 14:59:02 GMT

Warm up then your repeats, don't forget your warm down.

RE: Is my volume enough?

Former Member — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 12:38:26 GMT

I was the bad luck swimmer could beat them all at a given time but always had an accident at the international events. Broken ankle the day of the 110 yards at 1958 Commonwealth Games, out of the hospital the day of the heats at the 1956 Olympics after a 4 day flu attack. Fell asleep in the sun at Mexico city 1955 Pan Am games, blood streaming down my back from sunburn the day I came second to Clark Scholes in the 100.

RE: Is my volume enough?

Former Member — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 12:28:25 GMT

Only other was Dan Sherry who held the world record for the 100 fly.

RE: Is my volume enough?

Former Member — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 12:24:14 GMT

I am a very high floater and to keep my legs in the water my head can not be as low as I want it.

RE: Is my volume enough?

Former Member — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 12:16:40 GMT

I raced Clark Scholes in Ohio in 1955 he led me for 90yards I was at his hip with 10 yards to go, he seemed to sink in the water and I won. I had gone all out for that 100 also and did not swim by him he just slowed down and almost stopped.

RE: Is my volume enough?

Former Member — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 12:04:29 GMT

Bud swimming like a fish, don't get caught in the net. Don't follow the pack (school of fish). My favorite words when teaching - get that head down.

RE: Is my volume enough?

Former Member — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 11:58:34 GMT

.... I make sure that in the following warmdown I try to swim the most perfect technique possible of that stroke. That means getting control of my breath first, not just wollowing right into it.... I’m pleased to hear I’m not the only one who does this. I don’t feel like such a loony now. Recently I’ve noticed I’m developing a bad habit of holding my head up too much in free. I've deduced that this is because I’m now doing mostly shorter, sprint-like distances of it while I’ve been concentrating on other strokes (mostly fly). So I’ve been tagging on a few 50’s of free at the end of my workout and mostly concentrating on this one thing. I’ve found the slowing down and the added concentration to be exceptionally beneficial, and peaceful. I just posted this link recently, but I’ll put it up again. I find this to be a very interesting read, especially all the way to the end, which includes the bit on "Slowly does it". Swim Like a Fish - a useful principle for swimmers? By Felix K. Gmünder www.svl.ch/svl_swim_like_a_fish.html In verifying this link I noticed that Terry gets some (controversial?) ink/bytes here. In reading the “two letters” link I’m reminded of how baffled I get when I see people frothing at the mouth over such nit picky details. I suppose anytime one feels their profession is attacked or threatened they are going to get a bit defensive, but much of the talk of super refined technique for Olympic class swimming tends to just flow by me with little interest on my part. I mean, the number of folks who are likely to understand and benefit from these details must be quite small indeed compared to the number of people who actually bounce off the walls between the lane lines on a daily basis. For a lot of folks, just getting out there and doing it is a major accomplishment. Forget doing it perfectly at all, let alone all the time. As for swimming like a fish I’ve had a number of folks comment that I do so, which pleases me to no end and makes me thoroughly bust my buttons. It is nice to get that kind of warm and fuzzy feed back, especially when it is unsolicited. Truth be told though, the fish I most probably represent however is a Flounder. :-D

RE: Is my volume enough?

Former Member — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 11:46:26 GMT

He also did so while racing in a manner that reminds me of Maurice Greene, coming from what seemed hopelessly behind at 85m to win quite a few important 100m races. So I'm enormously curious about anything I can glean that might have contributed to those incredible accomplishments. Just a point Terry, Is it possible that being hopelessly behind at 85m then winning the other swimmers had gone out too fast. I have seen many a horse race where the front runner seems to put on the brakes and slows down and the horse coming from behind did not go any faster but seemed to walk past the horse that was in front.

RE: Is my volume enough?

Former Member — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 11:05:10 GMT

... credibility will not exist until the repetition of producing varying champions is established. WB "He who truly knows has no occasion to shout." Leonardo da Vinci But how about: "Judge not lest ye be judged...." I reckon since I’ve never produced an Olympic Champion that all of my study and practice are completely worthless. Forget that as far as swimming is concerned that I’ve practically come back from the dead. I couldn’t possibly have anything to offer. Plus I’ve never published a book or video, nor even written a workout routine. Crikey, I should probably give up on swimming altogether.... NOT! I’ve long ago lost count of the great champions I’ve seen interviewed immediately after winning some super event who first thanked their high school coach for inspiring them to excel and eventually become what they were that day. Ya’ gotta start somewhere. I believe anyone with positive input should be able to contribute unfettered. As for those who don’t, well, they can put their opinions where the sun don’t shine. Oops! Guess I’m being a bit judgmental there. :”> Oh well, I’m probably going to Hell anyway, so I reckon I’ll get over it. (Thinks of the Far Side cartoon with the bloke gleefully pushing the wheelbarrow through hell and one Devil says to the other “We’re just not getting through to that guy.”) Double Oops! Dang! More than one paragraph (again). I meant to fuse them all together. Oh well... maybe next time. :-p

RE: Is my volume enough?

The Fortress — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 10:11:29 GMT

If you've only been at it a year, which is about what I'm at, I don't think 1500 yards per workout will make you competitive. But it depends what you mean by "compete." I don't do a ton of yardage, but I do a lot more than that with some quality. Maybe you could fake a good 50, that's not too hard, but a 200 IM?! 200 IMs are painful even if you're in great shape. I'm about to attempt my first one this year after doing a bunch of 100 IMs. Now, 2500-3000 a few times a week is plenty to do some good 50s if you do it the way Allen suggests. (BTW, Allen, I love your idea of getting the sprints in after a long warmup, instead of at the end of workout. I'm going to do that when I swim alone.) Good luck! Leslie

RE: Is my volume enough?

Former Member — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 08:13:29 GMT

I don't think anyone can say whether 1500 or 3000 is enough, 100s are easy to train for lots of 25s, 50s and 75 repeats. You need a mix. I very seldom swim over 250m and my rest periods are longer than most. when I swim arms only my legs gently flutter. You will know if you are putting in the right type of work by your results. I personally when younger could stay with the top sprinters by doing 500 to 800m workouts.

RE: Is my volume enough?

Allen Stark — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 04:33:36 GMT

The minimum amount for you to train is enough to grove your stroke so that it is as efficiect as you can get it(which generally requires a coach or an underwater video camera and lots of tapes of world class swimmers) and well conditioned enough to hold that stroke for the distance of the race. How far that is depends on many individual factors. For 100s I'd agree with George about 75s,50s,and 25s,but I'd also add 100s and 125s and 12.5s. 125s for over distance(especially important for LCM) and 12.5 to work on how sprinting feels.

RE: Is my volume enough?

rtodd — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 04:02:02 GMT

Wow, Alot of interesting posts. With the running, I was training primarily for the 400m, the longest sprint. It involved alot of interval training. I trained 4 times a week. Each workout included 800m warmup and 4x100m stride outs, then a series of about 6 drills. Then the workout consisted of about 1600 to 2400m of various interval work. I would consider this the amount of work necessary to be very competative in the 40 year old age group. Perhaps a fifth day a week for recovery and tempo if you have a good marriage. For masters sprinting, recovery is important, so I think 4 times a week was good. Lifting was 5 days a week. Now that I am swimming, I am biasing myself towards the sprints. In running the 1/4 lasted about 55sec, which would equate to the 100 in swimming, so I consider the 200yd swim a middle distance event from the perspective of running. Actually in running the 400, it is not all out and you run with speed reserve in the first 200. In swimming, the 50 is probably the only thing that is really all anaerobic...barely. So is 1500 yards of intervals enough to compete in the swimming sprints? Ulimately I would like to be able to do the 100 and 200 IM. I have been swimming one year and my volume has gone up, but it seems to be leveling off. I could do 2000 yard workouts at a lower intensity, but is there something to be gained in the shorter races? I just don't get the 3000 yard workouts. Maybe someday I will.

RE: Is my volume enough?

Former Member — Mon, 02 Oct 2006 16:35:57 GMT

Many would like to believe that success can be achieved without hard work or breaking a sweat. It's part of our culture. That's not to say that drills and technique are unimportant, but there is an almost subliminal message (which people are all to willing to believe) that training needn't be painful, and that yardage (volume) = garbage ("mindless" swimming). On a hard set, I'm swimming mindfully right up to the point that I feel like I'm going to puke.

RE: Is my volume enough?

Former Member — Mon, 02 Oct 2006 13:57:10 GMT

A lot of the best, most knowing coaches, aren't the ones coaching finalist or multiple champions. They are the ones laying the foundation for young(er) swimmers to develop into champions/finalist/record holders. They are the ones at age group practices. They are the ones instilling a love of the sport, proper form, how to be responsible. Besides if Reese and Marsh didn't think Terry's ideas were valid, they wouldn't keep allowing him to design practices when he visits their programs.

RE: Is my volume enough?

Former Member — Mon, 02 Oct 2006 11:55:11 GMT

Champion swimmers do not a coach make. Terry is helping mostly non swimmers and swimmers in general to be more compitent swimmers and I agree with most of his stuff. I have taught thousands to swim but found coaching competitive swimmers not to be financially worth it they consume too much water time.

RE: Is my volume enough?

Former Member — Mon, 02 Oct 2006 10:40:58 GMT

White Buffalo- I don't remember Terry 'shouting' any of his ideas. This is a discussion not a diatribe.

RE: Is my volume enough?

Former Member — Mon, 02 Oct 2006 10:28:06 GMT

Terry: Help me understand- since Popov smoked, should I smoke too? Or when Alex was winning the 50 at the 2000 Olympics by a significant margin, should one dolphin into the wall/finish costing Popov the gold medal (would have been third Olympic gold in the 50 in a row) when Irvin and Hall tied for the gold? His coach got him to do the dolphin kick, the same coach that was arrest during a flight for drunkeness and caught with anabolic steroids in Australia. I suggest that some athletes like Popov are just that good, despite coaching. Genetics is the ultimate key, not anything else. What is your point since to my knowledge other than authoring some books, you have never trained anyone of significance, such as a finalist? I enjoy all posts, but quite frankly, until a coach has produced multiple champions ( George Haines, Doc Councilman, Sherm Chavor, Ray Boussard, Eddie Reese, etc.), credibility will not exist until the repetition of producing varying champions is established. WB "He who truly knows has no occasion to shout." Leonardo da Vinci

RE: Is my volume enough?

Former Member — Mon, 02 Oct 2006 10:23:16 GMT

John- I really need to get wipers for my monitor: I got some really gruesome imagery from your 'swimmers eat fast too'. Depending on certain employment developments, I hope to make it to either Woodlands or Austin (I have pleasant memories of both), so who knows?- Peter

RE: Is my volume enough?

Former Member — Mon, 02 Oct 2006 09:58:31 GMT

Peter, If you and I ever make it to Austin Ande and I will treat you to a TexMex Chuy's burrito the size of your head and a frozen margarita that will knock your socks off. Sprinters eat fast too ! It's all part of my 11 second theory on life. Its hard for sprinters to pay attention beyond that. John Smith

RE: Is my volume enough?

Former Member — Mon, 02 Oct 2006 09:53:28 GMT

John-good-terse-short-longhorn-beer-yahoo...Peter

RE: Is my volume enough?

Former Member — Mon, 02 Oct 2006 08:29:33 GMT

George, You are free to train and write your life away.... :-) John

RE: Is my volume enough?

Former Member — Mon, 02 Oct 2006 08:23:35 GMT

Good idea only one or two line responses. Do you also think we should restrict master swimmers to 1500 m swim workouts 3 x a week.

RE: Is my volume enough?

Former Member — Mon, 02 Oct 2006 08:01:20 GMT

Quote by byNKFrench... :The "serious" Masters I've know will train 3000-4500 a day, 4-6 times a week" Way to much too time with your face in the water. There are too many other important things at life at our age. Remember, the 50s and the 100s are the only thing that are important. If you have to swim a 200 do like I do.... take it out hard and fake it. Also remember that most of the events are 200 and below, not above a 200. Weights are a good diversion to pool time and help speed work and taper. You'll go mind numb if you have to swim an hour and a half 5 days a week. Terry...... dude...... you are limited to one paragraph responses from now on.... :) John Smith

RE: Is my volume enough?

Former Member — Mon, 02 Oct 2006 07:33:08 GMT

One of the things I've tried to do in latter years relates to the warmdown: while I'm not as self-disciplined as Terry in constant mindful swimming, (I do try & am getting better at it) I have focused on the warmdown as crucial to my neuromuscular memory, esp. after very hard sets where puke, screams and various body parts go flying. At that point, despite trying hard, I know vital points of my technique have fallen apart largely 'cause I'm still in the 'fast' lane of my club surrounded by 25-35 year olds & this old guy(54) lets his ego duke it out with them. What I'm trying to say (in typically convoluted fashion) is this: I make sure that in the following warmdown I try to swim the most perfect technique possible of that stroke. That means getting control of my breath first, not just wollowing right into it. Our club often does these sets right at the end of the workout, but I feel that the few extra minutes staying in the water really pays off.