Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

Former Member — Wed, 25 Oct 2006 15:55:40 GMT

I suspect that some of the college short course records have been set in cheap Speedo briefs. It seems to me that when the Frenchman set the 50 SCY record last year he was not wearing anything special. Fred B. was wearing an Arena bodysuit. Because of NCAA's rules about logo, he had to remove it because it was a little too big. Plus, Auburn is sponsored by Speedo but he chose to wear Arena's suit. I have to disagree with Dolphin2. I find the new tech suits to be comfortable. There is no way I will go back to wearing the old briefs. The suits made by Arena, I find to be the most comfortable of all. They don't gain much water and they rest very comfortable on the body.

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

Former Member — Wed, 25 Oct 2006 15:26:03 GMT

Better than speedo, no suits allowed. Should this be in the rules dictator thread.

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

Former Member — Wed, 24 May 2006 15:02:39 GMT

All things considered - very few sports don't have some piece of required equipment. Swimming has none per se (as you point out) that is required to play the game. No rackets, clubs, balls, skis, bicycles, etc.). Perhaps running is comparable because shoes aren't required but are definitely useful. Some say that the new larger tennis rackets have changed the game because they shorten the court and make serves too important. I don't know since I don't play tennis. But just because a piece of equipment is required (like bikes) doesn't mean the athletic performance is less significant. In cycling the best athlete usually wins. In swimming - does anyone here believe that the best athlete doesn't usually win? No one is going to beat Phelps or Lochte because of a better suit. Until the suit becomes something that unreasonably differentiates one athlete from another it is still athletic achievement. Organizing bodies like FINA have a job to do and so far they have done it. I think a far richer area to discuss and be concerned with is physiological enhancements......

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

Former Member — Wed, 24 May 2006 14:43:12 GMT

Originally posted by hofffam Huh? It is still a human being that turns the pedals and pushes the combined mass up a hill. In the Tour de France and other elite events the technology playing field is essentially level. All of those guys ride $10,000 bikes at the (lower) weight limit. Lance Armstrong could ride a mountain bike and go faster than the majority of road cyclists out there. Don't forget that elite cyclists VO2 max capability is generally ranked second behind cross country skiers. The difference is that the bike is an essential component of biking. A swimsuit is not an essential component of swimming, and is worn purely for purposes of modesty. And, until recently, it was not a component of swim racing, except insofar as it impeded a swimmer's performance. As for swimsuits - I'm old enough to remember when the "Belgrade" suits appeared in the 70s. And compared to the nylon suits girls wore then I bet the advantage was signficant. Guess what - in a year every reasonably fast girl had one even at the unheard of price of $50 then. So the technology supplied by swimsuits is obtainable by most anyone. Even an economically disadvantaged child can probably get one once they demonstrate potential. You are comparing swimsuits to swimsuits. Of course it is true that, historically, some swimsuits created a more significant deterrent to a swimmer's performance than others did. And the goal of swimmers was to find a suit that had as little effect on their performance as possible. But now the name of the game has changed and swimmers are talking about suits that will actually enhance their performance. Bob

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

Former Member — Wed, 24 May 2006 13:52:32 GMT

In bike racing, it is the bikes that are doing the racing Huh? It is still a human being that turns the pedals and pushes the combined mass up a hill. In the Tour de France and other elite events the technology playing field is essentially level. All of those guys ride $10,000 bikes at the (lower) weight limit. Lance Armstrong could ride a mountain bike and go faster than the majority of road cyclists out there. Don't forget that elite cyclists VO2 max capability is generally ranked second behind cross country skiers. Auto racing is different - the power is supplied strictly by a machine and pure straightline speed is supplied by engineers. As for swimsuits - I'm old enough to remember when the "Belgrade" suits appeared in the 70s. And compared to the nylon suits girls wore then I bet the advantage was signficant. Guess what - in a year every reasonably fast girl had one even at the unheard of price of $50 then. So the technology supplied by swimsuits is obtainable by most anyone. Even an economically disadvantaged child can probably get one once they demonstrate potential.

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

Former Member — Wed, 24 May 2006 08:45:24 GMT

Originally posted by Dolphin 2 Since I initiated this thread, I’ve been doing a lot of research on this subject and I doubt that a shark would experience any difference in swimming ability if its skin texture were like that of a human. Conversely, the human body form is not designed for rapid maneuvering in an aquatic environment and covering it with synthetic shark skin would not reduce drag any significant amount either. Accordingly, the conclusions given on the third paragraph of this page are what I’ve suspected the truth is all along: amos.indiana.edu/.../supersuits.html And on the concluding paragraph on this page also: www.coachesinfo.com/.../146 In my opinion, breaking a record by “1/100” of a second in an simple athletic event like swimming is pretty frivolous, however splitting a hair several ways is what makes the news when it comes to sports hyperbole. As I’ve thought all along, I believe this FastSkin II hype is really about adding a “futuristic and glamorous look” to swimming (which some Hollywood cinema people inappropriately think has been an unfashionable sport) and getting commercial publicity for the manufacturers of these suits at televised events. Of course, there’s the “Me Too” effect where even your Average Joe swimmer will go out and spend big $$$$ to keep up with the fad. Nothing against Speedo, Tyr, or Adidas, but what I’d really love to see is a few Olympic swimmers wearing “plain old vanilla” racer briefs win more medals than anyone with those high tech suits. I’d really be “LMAO” until my head aches! Happy Swimming :D I suspect that some of the college short course records have been set in cheap Speedo briefs. It seems to me that when the Frenchman set the 50 SCY record last year he was not wearing anything special.

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

Former Member — Wed, 24 May 2006 08:14:48 GMT

Since I initiated this thread, I’ve been doing a lot of research on this subject and I doubt that a shark would experience any difference in swimming ability if its skin texture were like that of a human. Conversely, the human body form is not designed for rapid maneuvering in an aquatic environment and covering it with synthetic shark skin would not reduce drag any significant amount either. Accordingly, the conclusions given on the third paragraph of this page are what I’ve suspected the truth is all along: amos.indiana.edu/.../supersuits.html And on the concluding paragraph on this page also: www.coachesinfo.com/.../146 In my opinion, breaking a record by “1/100” of a second in an simple athletic event like swimming is pretty frivolous, however splitting a hair several ways is what makes the news when it comes to sports hyperbole. As I’ve thought all along, I believe this FastSkin II hype is really about adding a “futuristic and glamorous look” to swimming (which some Hollywood cinema people inappropriately think has been an unfashionable sport) and getting commercial publicity for the manufacturers of these suits at televised events. Of course, there’s the “Me Too” effect where even your Average Joe swimmer will go out and spend big $$$$ to keep up with the fad. Nothing against Speedo, Tyr, or Adidas, but what I’d really love to see is a few Olympic swimmers wearing “plain old vanilla” racer briefs win more medals than anyone with those high tech suits. I’d really be “LMAO” until my head aches! Happy Swimming :D

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

Former Member — Wed, 24 May 2006 05:53:36 GMT

Originally posted by meldyck This line of questioning always intrigues me because it seems pretty much to be limited to swimming. To put it into context I wonder how many bikers would like to go back to 40 pound 3-speed bikes? My racing mountain bike weighs half that. Or, how many elite Nordic skiers would like to give up graphite technology for bamboo poles and wooden skiis? My racing skiis are way faster than those and I wouldn't want to change back. Vaulting poles are light weight, running shoes are 'engineered', and the list goes on... But, closer to the subject, most of us know that the earliest swimmers didn't even have access to Speedo briefs. I wouldn't want to compete in a wool suit. Your analogy is not a good one. In bike racing, it is the bikes that are doing the racing. In swim racing, it is supposed to be the swimmers who are doing the racing. Throughout most of the history of competitive swimming, the goal of swimsuit design was to minimize the effect that the suit had on a swimmer's performance. Unfortunately, some are now trying to make the suit into a performance aid and to maximize its effect on a swimmer's performance. Bob

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

Former Member — Mon, 22 May 2006 16:14:04 GMT

Originally posted by FindingMyInnerFish Just that it's hard to make deals during sets of 50 or 100 free... or even while resting between sets, as you're just catching your breath for the next set. While golf strikes me as a waste of a perfectly good running surface, it seems for business purposes to have the advantage of not being anaerobic, thus allowing participants to distract themselves from the game by wheeling and dealing and maybe by bragging to one another about the innovative design of their clubs. ;) On the subject of sports and business venues, I’ve been told that in Japan, a lot of management strategies have been developed in the pool, and hot tub area of the gym. In the 1970’s, an acquaintance of mine took a tour of a large elevator manufacturing plant in Japan and it was quite common for both the factory managers and the rank-and-file workers to get together in a 30 person Jacuzzi and have conferences about how to improve productivity. The rational is that having everyone get together in the pool and the hot tub removes the “Wall Of Separation” between management and the workers. Considering the phenomenal growth of Japan’s industrial economy, it’s an interesting idea. :D

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

Former Member — Mon, 22 May 2006 07:20:37 GMT

The cause and effect relationship is because Japan (and many other Asian countries) are quite well known for their very close-knit social structure. One of the socio-psychological processes to develop and maintain this structure is known as “Skinship” which promotes person-to-person bonding through swimming or communal bathing : en.wikipedia.org/.../Skinship It is quite well known that the crime rate in Japan is one of the lowest in the world and I am quite certain that this is related to some kind of bonding process –which unfortunately, we do not have here in the U.S. :D

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

Former Member — Mon, 22 May 2006 05:39:40 GMT

Originally posted by Dolphin 2 On the subject of sports and business venues, I’ve been told that in Japan, a lot of management strategies have been developed in the pool, and hot tub area of the gym. In the 1970’s, an acquaintance of mine took a tour of a large elevator manufacturing plant in Japan and it was quite common for both the factory managers and the rank-and-file workers to get together in a 30 person Jacuzzi and have conferences about how to improve productivity. The rational is that having everyone get together in the pool and the hot tub removes the “Wall Of Separation” between management and the workers. Considering the phenomenal growth of Japan’s industrial economy, it’s an interesting idea. :D Hmm? Cause and effect?

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

Former Member — Fri, 19 May 2006 12:02:14 GMT

Matt! Your best post of all time is the shortest!

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

Former Member — Fri, 19 May 2006 08:36:50 GMT

Originally posted by Matt S Thanks because golf is not a sport; it's a psychiatric disorder. Actually, golf is more than a sport – it’s also a business activity too. I wonder how many corporate deals have been planned on the green. Now that I’ve thought of it, I wish swimming was such a financially lucrative playground for the CEOs as the courses are. Cheers :D

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

FindingMyInnerFish — Fri, 19 May 2006 05:54:46 GMT

Originally posted by Dolphin 2 Actually, golf is more than a sport – it’s also a business activity too. I wonder how many corporate deals have been planned on the green. Now that I’ve thought of it, I wish swimming was such a financially lucrative playground for the CEOs as the courses are. Cheers :D Just that it's hard to make deals during sets of 50 or 100 free... or even while resting between sets, as you're just catching your breath for the next set. While golf strikes me as a waste of a perfectly good running surface, it seems for business purposes to have the advantage of not being anaerobic, thus allowing participants to distract themselves from the game by wheeling and dealing and maybe by bragging to one another about the innovative design of their clubs. ;)

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

Former Member — Thu, 18 May 2006 14:04:57 GMT

Somewhere, one of my siblings still has my fahter's football uniform from the late 1920-30's. It is wool, weighs a tone and has no protection. Look at today's football uniforms, especially lines-men and all of the protection they have. That is the only way men over 300pounds could even possibly ram into eachother. In the history of mankind, there has never been a techknowlogy invented that has not been used nor improved.

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

FindingMyInnerFish — Thu, 18 May 2006 12:21:43 GMT

Sometimes the dividing line between innovation and unfair advantage seems blurred: what's a "food supplement," for example, and what's a drug? Then there is the issue of a controversial running shoe that may or may not be banned for the Boston Marathon or any other USATF sanctioned race, depending on whom you quote. Consider also another running related technological tweak: the Oregon Project. This involves having elite athletes live in conditions designed to simulate high altitude, so as to improve performance. As the article states, Runners eat, sleep, watch TV, and play videogames at what their bodies think is high elevation. Meanwhile, they train at Portland's sea level. Then there's the laptop loaded with some $35,000 worth of Russian software. By analyzing heart rate patterns, the software aims to take the guesswork out of training. Plug electrodes into the auxiliary box, wire up the runner's chest, and four minutes later there's an onscreen message suggesting just how intensely to work out that day. If the runner adds an electrode to his forehead, in 15 more minutes the system assesses overall health by checking the condition of his liver, kidneys, and central nervous system. Johnson, for one, is a big believer in the software. "It knows when I'm ready to go," he says. Other high tech tools available to the Oregon team include a vibrating platform to increase leg power and a hyperbaric (high-pressure oxygen) chamber to repair muscle tears. The company's goal in all this is clear: use technology to counter the increasing domination of African runners, many of whom were born and train at altitude. Next to this, buying a fastskin suit to improve swimming performance is very low-budget. So are a lot of the techno toys we bring to our favorite sports, whether running, swimming, etc. Some of the innovations are things we now take for granted: stopwatches, high tech fabrics... and even heart rate monitors. By using these items on a large scale, people have raised standards--and increased participation--in sports across the board. Better shoes and clothes have made it possible for runners to continue in the sport or take it up later in life. (Of course, the "chicken/egg/chicken" question arises: did the innovations fuel participation or vice versa?) Better info about nutrition and training, some of it acquired through coaches, some perhaps through coaching/workout software, allows the less gifted (I count myself in this category) to make more progress simply by avoiding injuries and staying healthy for a longer time. And most of us, within reason, will try some of the new innovations, although in most cases, our pocketbooks won't stretch as far as, say, a sponsor's, so elite athletes will certainly have "stuff" most of us can't afford. But why not? As was mentioned, the bottom line isn't the equipment: it's the person... his or her ability, desire, and self-discipline. No casual runners are chosen for the Oregon Project. No simply fitness swimmers are sponsored to wear the latest fastskins. We're asking for more and getting it... but still, so much depends on the "we" who ask.

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

Former Member — Thu, 18 May 2006 08:15:09 GMT

Thanks because golf is not a sport; it's a psychiatric disorder.

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

Former Member — Thu, 18 May 2006 06:49:26 GMT

With the traditional “briefs”, the idea is to reduce the drag of the suit itself and this is done by minimizing the area of the body covered by the suit. Then, any additional drag would be attributed only to the body profile (sometimes referred to as the “Gym Characteristics”) of the individual swimmer. Lycra (and some other materials) were chosen because they are fairly strong and don’t get soggy and mushy in the water (like cotton which does produce noticeable drag and feels extremely uncomfortable as well). However, the intent of FastSkin II (and similar types of suits from other manufacturer’s) is not about reducing the drag of just the suit itself –they’re about reducing the drag of the overall body by adding something totally extraneous to the person’s normal gym characteristics. I bet that 99.9% of the drag is because the human anthropological form (not just the skin boundary itself) is not streamlined and not the appropriate shape for swimming. In addition, humans cannot breath underwater and above-the-water breathing must be coordinated with other body movements. On the other hand, a shark has highly streamlined form and they also have gills that allow them to breath continuously in the water. cstl-cla.semo.edu/.../shark1.jpg Ironically, I doubt that sharks would experience any significant loss in their extraordinary swimming ability if they had human skin texture instead of what nature provided them with. In addition, these new full and partial body suits interfere with the inherent cooling ability that swimming provides since they are a thermal insulator and there is a "stagnant boundary layer" (water trapped between the suit and your body) which doesn't allow the surrounding water to flow directly over your skin. In fact, some people have told me that they feel like they are actually sweating inside these suits and they can’t tolerate the normal pool temperature as they could with briefs. I might mention that research on the drag produced by various type of swim suits and their overall efficacy was done by commercial divers almost 50 years ago and the result that FastSkin II has less drag than human skin is not really news. Interestingly, in the 1960’s, I knew of a couple of commercial scuba divers in the Los Angeles Harbor area who worked underwater inspecting ships and bridge piers and they were quite aware that the rubber ("seal skin") suits provided some advantage in swimming (such as faster maneuvering and lower air consumption from their scuba tanks). You can see some of the old fashioned rubber diving/swimming suits in this link for the Sea Hunt TV series that aired in 1958 (starring the well known Lloyd Bridges). Http://DiverLink.Com/SeaHunt/ However, seal skin suits were never adopted to athletic swimming because they were considered to be extraneous aids and any mechanical advantage they gave did not demonstrate the real capability of each individual swimmer. Happy Swimming Dolphin 2 :D

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

Former Member — Thu, 18 May 2006 05:09:00 GMT

Now this is innovative: "If the runner adds an electrode to his forehead, in 15 more minutes the system assesses overall health by checking the condition of his liver, kidneys, and central nervous system." Who says the Russians are behind us in health care?

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

aquageek — Thu, 18 May 2006 01:28:02 GMT

I read or heard recently that with all the crazy innovative items in the golf world, the average score of golfers is not getting any lower. Makes me kind of chuckle when my pals go buy another set of multi-thousand $$ clubs, the latest ball, etc and still shoot the same score.

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

Former Member — Wed, 17 May 2006 10:14:55 GMT

its the swimmer in the suit not the suit on the swimmer that produces fast times. these suits do make you go faster but there is no subsitute to good training.

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

Former Member — Wed, 17 May 2006 10:12:43 GMT

Yes, there is a current limit for bike weights. I wasn't questioning that. However, there have been significant changes in bike technology over the years that have lightened and streamlined bikes. My point was that, for the sake of pure athletic performance, no one is suggesting that we return to the 1960s for bike technology. -- mel

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

Former Member — Wed, 17 May 2006 09:01:48 GMT

At the elite level...the suits have the ability to shave off valuable tenths of a second...even more. At the masters level the suits have the ability to condense years of accumulated cellulite and love handles into a neat little sausage wrap.

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

Former Member — Wed, 17 May 2006 08:12:05 GMT

This line of questioning always intrigues me because it seems pretty much to be limited to swimming. To put it into context I wonder how many bikers would like to go back to 40 pound 3-speed bikes? My racing mountain bike weighs half that. Or, how many elite Nordic skiers would like to give up graphite technology for bamboo poles and wooden skiis? My racing skiis are way faster than those and I wouldn't want to change back. Vaulting poles are light weight, running shoes are 'engineered', and the list goes on... But, closer to the subject, most of us know that the earliest swimmers didn't even have access to Speedo briefs. I wouldn't want to compete in a wool suit. So, sports technology changes & I don't see why anyone gets too worked up over it. I've heard the argument that expensive suits drive out the folks who are limited in funds. But, if you swim 200 days a year in a cheap recreation center that charges $3 a swim that's $600. By comparison, the $300 retail price tag is small. If you train hard to go to a big meet, fly there and use a hotel, the cost will probably be in excess of $500. There's no question in my mind that the new suits are faster. If I want to stay competitive I get a new suit. I've done tests on myself and other master's swimmers and the improvement amounts to about 3.5%! You just can't ignore that. -- mel

RE: Is Swimming Still An Athletic Activity Or Is It Now A Mechanized Sport?

Kevin in MD — Wed, 17 May 2006 05:29:25 GMT