New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

Former Member — Mon, 22 May 2006 08:57:57 GMT

Anyone from Nationals (competitors, officials,spectators) have any further observations? I have just purchased two day passes to watch the PanPacs in Victoria in August; hoping to see wonderful swimming, but also will watch this aspect closely & report back how they're calling it in Open events (yes, the Japanese team will be there, & yes, I will watch a certain someone to see if he's adding a second fly kick).

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

Former Member — Mon, 22 May 2006 06:04:24 GMT

Hmmm.....I found it easy to add the dolphin kick to my breastroke pullout. But I'm a flyer and used to kicking dolphin off the wall. It took a few weeks of practice to make it routine. I believe the dolphin lengthens my pullout by a yard or two. It feels faster, but I don't have any times to compare pre and post dolphin. Racing breastroke is a new phenomena for me. Every once in a while - usually when I'm tired or just not thinking, I forget to do the dolphin and all of a sudden my pullout feels weird and out of sync. I haven't seen many DQs so far. I don't believe the majority of Masters breastrokers has added it (yet). And plenty of fast guys haven't yet. A friend, who is a top 10 50-54 is just now adding it.

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

Former Member — Mon, 01 May 2006 15:36:37 GMT

My experience as both swimmer and official is that they are calling dolphin kicks just a often for senior swimmers. The biggest risk of trying to take advantage of the new "kick" or "turn" is that if you attempt the dolphin earlier during the pullout you: 1) Break streamline and must be sure that the extra propulsion from the dolphin kick more than compensates and 2) Must be very careful that after completing the kick you don't break your legs above your body and then need to lower them in maintain streamline. This results in most of the DQ's that I've seen (and called). You must make sure that the upward movement of the dolphin kick brings you in line with body and not above it or you are at risk. The safest approch is to take the dolpin kick as your hands pass your hips. All in all, I'd say that few swimmers (senior age groupers or masters) are able to extract much advantage. It probably requires a fair amount of time to master and some never well (look at how few swimmers can really exploit dolphin kicks off the walls in free).

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

Former Member — Mon, 01 May 2006 07:31:28 GMT

Developing a good dolphin kick in the breastroke depends on your pullout style. If you adhere to the old 'straight' glide, you will have a harder time incorporating the kick (without raising your feet, thereby DQ). If you perform the angled pullout, the downward kick is a natural part of the transition from 'down bubble' to 'up bubble'. All I know, is due to this rule change, my 16 year old college record has fallen, to a guy who improved almost 2 seconds since the rule change. Fair? The chairman of the NCAA Hall Of Fame doesn't think so. Is it right to change the rules in the name of 'progress'? They were quick to reel back the backstroke rule changes, but not before the damage was done. Or because the officials couldn't observe infractions without reasonable doubt? Baseball umpires don't use electronic equipment to make calls on split second action. If an official thought the downward motion of the feet were more than the natural movement between angles, he/she should just simply 'make the call'.

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

Former Member — Mon, 01 May 2006 06:47:01 GMT

Originally posted by Matt S Since its invention, I am unaware of any raging controversy (and the concomitant whining and hand wringing) about the legality of certain techniques in a butterfly race. Simple, recover your arms simultaneously and over the water, kick with your legs together, and touch the wall simultaneously and at the same level. Let me stir up the pot a bit.....Regarding the Butterfly Rules and quoting Article 101.3.2 of the Code of Regulations and Rules of Competition of U.S. Masters Swimming "After the start and after each turn, only one breaststroke kick is allowed prior to the arm pull that brings the swimmer to the surface." I find it interesting that Breaststroke allows a dolphin kick while Butterfly allows a breaststroke kick. Furthermore, Article 101.3.3 allows the butterfly to be done with a breaststoke kick and "may be used exclusively or interchangeably with the dolphin kick." I open this up for discussion. ;)

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

knelson — Sun, 30 Apr 2006 11:54:52 GMT

Originally posted by A.K. Does the above quote interpret that you cannot change forward depth direction during the butterfly kick. ie go from a straight line underwater to an angle towards the surface during the kick? No.

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

Former Member — Fri, 28 Apr 2006 15:44:21 GMT

Originally posted by Jeff Commings That guy shouldn't have been disqualified. The rules say you only have to do the dolphin kick before the first breaststroke kick. There is no rule saying it must be done "simultaneous" to the arm pull. That's just when the majority of people do it. I've seen top-notch swimmer do it right before the pull, as this guy did. No DQ. If I were that guy I'd appeal. But it probably wasn't that big a deal in the end. FINA has posted an interpretation of the rule as follows: Interpretation (SW7.4): A dolphin kick is not part of the cycle and is only permitted at the start and turn whilst the arms are pulling back to the legs or after the arm pull whilst wholly submerged followed by a breaststroke kick.

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

Former Member — Fri, 28 Apr 2006 15:35:21 GMT

In the Illinois masters newsletter - I think Winter 2006, Nadine gives a very good explanation that makes a lot of sense to me. go to the website and read what she has written. www.ilmsa.com

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

Jeff Commings — Fri, 28 Apr 2006 12:38:03 GMT

Nadine makes a good interpretation.

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

Former Member — Fri, 28 Apr 2006 10:33:25 GMT

Well said, Bill. Back to the topic (yes, I know, I'm hardly one to object to thread-diversion), What I'm after is also that very subjective impression that some of you could share: are they calling the rule tightly, or highly erratically?

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

Former Member — Fri, 28 Apr 2006 09:02:17 GMT

Matt you have way to much time on your hands!

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

Former Member — Fri, 28 Apr 2006 09:00:24 GMT

Hey man, Yet another reason not to swim *** stroke. The snail darter of the competitive swimming world. It's the slowest stroke. It has less in common with all the other strokes. And, it exists only with massive, artificial protection at the behest of "purists" who live in constant fear that it will somehow morph into some stroke "less aesthetic" than the good ole days of their fondly remembered high school swimming careers. The best thing I can say about *** stroke is that the aforementioned massive protection resulted in the invention of the true stroke of the Gods, and acid test of who is a real swimmer instead of a rec swim pretender, the butterfly. Please note the contrast. Since its invention, I am unaware of any raging controversy (and the concomitant whining and hand wringing) about the legality of certain techniques in a butterfly race. Simple, recover your arms simultaneously and over the water, kick with your legs together, and touch the wall simultaneously and at the same level. No haggling over BS. No tiresome controversies about which phenominal swimmer and present or former world record holder is "cheating." The only challenge in fly is learning how to swim the darn thing easily and being in good enough shape to finish the darn race. Imagine that, swimming ability, and not the capacity to whine louder than anyone else, determining the outcome. No, all this caterwauling over minutiae is not at all comparable to dolphining off of the turns in free and back. First, freestyle. Please note that by definition it is any form of locomotion that does not involving pushing off of the bottom of the pool or tugging on the lane line. Hence the delicious freedom from stroke judging controversy. But more to the point, body dolphining is completely in keeping with both the letter and the spirit of the stroke. Backstroke also has a simple concept; stay on your flippin' back. If you can body dolphin the entire length of the pool with your nose pointed more towards the surface of the water than the pool floor, hey, you're on your back. It is worth noting that backstroke does indeed come in third behind free and fly in that it has been permitted certain liberties to enable efficient turns, and similarly a reasonable limit has been placed on body dolphining to prevent backstroke from turning completely into a submarine race (as it might in a 25 yard pool, which is itself a fadish abomination that does not travel well outside of the borders of the U.S.) These artificial interventions have in fact generated more controversy than one sees in fly or free races. However, it is nothing compared to the stroke beloved by trial lawyers, devils' advocates, and general pains in the neck everywhere. Ladies & Gentlemen, I give you the *** stroke, or whatever the heck it has morphed into this week. Matt

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

Jim Clemmons — Fri, 28 Apr 2006 06:55:45 GMT

Matt quote: touch the wall simultaneously and at the same level. No haggling over BS. Actually, you have not needed to touch "at the same level" for some time now. Both BS and BF changed away from the "same level" requirement at the same time - if I remember correctly.

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

BillS — Fri, 28 Apr 2006 05:56:12 GMT

Matt, you are hopelessly misguided (and long winded to boot). Allow me to point out that the breastroke is swum facing forward, which allows a swimmer to use the two eyes God/nature/happenstance (insert your chosen belief system here) placed in the head facing . . . all together now . . forward. As well, this happy forward-facing stroke places the nostrils in a generally downward direction, which anyone remotely conversant with the laws of gravity and the principles of liquids can affirm is, in the immortal words of Martha Stewart, a Good Thing. No, my butterfly addled friend, the *** stroke of swimming is that senseless exercise in blind flailing known as the backstroke. It seems significant that it is the only stroke which must be started from the edge of the pool, with its own set of arcane rules governing the placement of one's toes, distance allowances while submerged, and varying tolerance for flipping to the natural, correct, and right side during the race but not at the end. Give me a stroke I can start with a manly dive off the blocks any day, and which doesn't require heroic anaerobic efforts or prophylactic measures to keep my head from filling up with the medium through which I am traveling. And the fly is not actually swum by anyone who is not (a) an Olympic Trials qualifier; or (b) Dennis Baker. Oh, I acknowledge that some will occasionally complete a 100 here and, in the odd case, a 200 there, (why, I myself have been known to complete a 50, albeit with much huffing, puffing, and an interesting vertical kicking display near the end) but the reality is that those swimmers know, in their heart of hearts, that they were damn lucky simply to have survived the race. No, the breastroke is a noble calling, worthy of its place in the hallowed pantheon of swimming. And a whole lot of rules.

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

A.K. — Fri, 28 Apr 2006 05:29:51 GMT

"there is now a requirement for all movements of the legs to be “in the same horizontal plane and without alternating movement”" So back to the definition for those who want to be legal and utilize this legal kick. Does the above quote interpret that you cannot change forward depth direction during the butterfly kick. ie go from a straight line underwater to an angle towards the surface during the kick?

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

BillS — Fri, 28 Apr 2006 02:46:03 GMT

Here is what is in the ILMSA newsletter. I think this is actually the comment from the USMS site, and is no doubt the basis for the DQ of my teammate: The official interpretation for the changes to the breaststroke is that during, or at the end of the arm pull-down of the first stroke after the start and after each turn, a single downward butterfly kick is allowed, but not required, followed by a breastroke kick. During the pull-down, if a downward butterfly kick is taken, it must be followed by a breaststoke kick. It is not permissible to take only a downward butterfly kick without then taking a normal breastroke kick. The downward butterfly kick is not permissible prior to the arm pull-down. In addition, there is now a requirement for all movements of the legs to be “in the same horizontal plane and without alternating movement”. This was previously not included in our rules.

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

Allen Stark — Thu, 27 Apr 2006 12:29:43 GMT

Mens NCAA's, it looked to me like the guy who won the 100 and 200 ***(coming from behind to win in the last length) did 2 dolphins on the last turn in each race. It also looked to me that Lochte took a dolphin kick into his turn in the 200 IM. The quality of the tapes from ESPN2 weren't good and there were no underwater shots to speak of so I can't be sure.

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

Jeff Commings — Thu, 27 Apr 2006 10:53:43 GMT

Originally posted by etrain I thought the kick had to be natural??? etrain Nope.

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

Former Member — Thu, 27 Apr 2006 07:50:24 GMT

I was trying the kick in the fall (and as all who know me realize, I have a pathetic dolphin kick) & found that there was a very natural position for this kick, just after an agressive pulldown & was rewarded with a sudden surge, so I think it is worthwhile for a breastroker to cultivate. Equally, I can't conceive of doing it off the last turn of a 200 as I find it tiring. What I find alarming is if those that find this kick easy are able to 'get away' with even more than now allowed, hence my concern. If any of you practitioners of the beautiful stroke are going to nats, it would be good to get feedback after that meet.

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

Former Member — Thu, 27 Apr 2006 05:01:40 GMT

In the last swim meet I participated in, the referee announced the rule prior to the first *** stroke event. A single dolphin kick is allowed when done simultaneously when pulling your arms down in the breastroke breakout. IMHO, the rule change is no worse than when the rules changed to allow your head to go underwater in the *** stroke. Or allowing swimmers to turn over on their stomach for the backstroke turn. Or allowing dolphin kicks at the start and turns of backstroke and freestyle.

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

aztimm — Thu, 27 Apr 2006 03:23:10 GMT

I've tried to do this kick several times when doing ***, but it just didn't seem to come naturally (my coach even tried working with me). I just couldn't get my timing right. Now with the possibility of getting DQ'd, it is something I'm not about to even try in a race. The extra few seconds I could save would be in vain, especially for a 200. For some reason, we've been doing a bit of 'non-free' lately. The other day we had something like 100 free, 100 nonfree, 200, 300, 400, 300, 200, 100 all of each, and I did all the nonfree as ***. A 400 *** really takes alot out of you!!! Maybe I'll do a meet this year so I can see if I've improved any.

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

BillS — Thu, 27 Apr 2006 02:49:21 GMT

I clarified with our team rep that "that guy," who is a woman, was DQ'd for taking the dolphin before the pull. Is part of the problem the rule that says "Throughout the race the stroke cycle must be one arm stroke and one leg kick in that order"? And then the interpretation is that the dolphin must be simultaneous with or after the pull in order to be before the kick? I was taught that we had to do it that way (which doesn't make it right), and I think there was a comment or interpretation of the new rule floating around at one time which said just that. The breastroke rule expressly allows the feet to clear the surface, as long as it is not part of the dolphin kick.

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

knelson — Thu, 27 Apr 2006 02:23:40 GMT

I've brought up the nebulousness of the "downward kick" wording before. Unless you can hyperextend your knees I don't see how you can kick down without kicking up first.

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

knelson — Thu, 27 Apr 2006 02:15:25 GMT

I agree with Jeff. Here's the actual wording from the USMS rule book: "After the start and after each turn, a single downward butterfl y (dolphin) kick followed by a breaststroke kick is permitted while wholly submerged, following which, all movements of the legs shall be simultaneous and in the same horizontal plane without alternating movement." Unless I'm missing something, I disagree with Erik. The amplitude of the dolphin kick isn't at issue. As long as there's only one dolphin kick, and it is followed by a breaststroke kick everything's copacetic. There's nothing that says it has to be "natural." In fact, I think that's why they chose to change the rule in the first place. It was just too difficult to determine whether some swimmer's legs were just doing a natural undulation or whether they were doing a conscious dolphin kick. Now there's no guess work. A dolphin kick is allowed.

RE: New breastroke rules: how are they calling them?

Jeff Commings — Thu, 27 Apr 2006 01:59:06 GMT

That guy shouldn't have been disqualified. The rules say you only have to do the dolphin kick before the first breaststroke kick. There is no rule saying it must be done "simultaneous" to the arm pull. That's just when the majority of people do it. I've seen top-notch swimmer do it right before the pull, as this guy did. No DQ. If I were that guy I'd appeal. But it probably wasn't that big a deal in the end.