Successful TI Swimmer

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

Former Member — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 17:25:38 GMT

Is TI the only way swimmers have learned proper body position?

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

Former Member — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 17:19:04 GMT

If a swimmer doesn't have good body position, no amount of evf will help them achieve their desired results. Knelson is right in that TI and EVF do compliement each other. If a swimmer has good body position but doesn't get a good hold on the water, they really won't go anywhere. And the reverse is true...bad position but a good catch won't get them to their best swimming. I do think evf is important. However, I think swimmers spend more time than they need focusing on their catch and not enough on their body position. Improving one's body position will(in my opinion) do more for a swimmer than anything else they are able to do. As body position improves, a person can swim longer, swim harder, swim faster and do it with less stress on joints(ie shoulder area)

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

Former Member — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 16:02:41 GMT

You can contact Russell Mark the biomechanist at USA-Swimming. He presented the information at the National Team Coaches meeting in 2006. He presented the information to about 70 coaches of world class swimmers. It's a very interesting question but I haven't looked into it. I suspect that it could be rationalized that every swimmer had to show an EVF and I don't know the criteria that Russell Mark used to make his conclusion. If you find out, will you please email me with your findings. Thanks, Coach T.

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

knelson — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:54:26 GMT

Any pause or delay of effective propulsive inertia hinders swimming speed. I would disagree with this. OK, technically this may be correct. If you could make 100% of your stroke propulsive (i.e., no deceleration phase) you would swim faster. However, this is impossible to achieve. Because of this the goal should be to maximize the propulsive component (which EVF is especially good for), while minimizing the deceleration component (which TI is good for by emphasizing a streamlined body position). In this way I think TI and EVF can be complementary.

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

ViveBene — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:10:33 GMT

.......... and somebody, in a very unsportsmanlike manner, has just (dawg) gone and removed those two sites.............:notworking: Or they never existed. Ya think?! Sounds as though Russell Mark's info is quasi-proprietary. Would be interesting, though. VB

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

Former Member — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:32:57 GMT

... and late bloomer status would create the ideal situation for fast swimming. Don't start - people have been drowned for less. -LBJ

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

Former Member — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 07:59:58 GMT

Add a little guts and you may have a swimmer.

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

Former Member — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 06:51:21 GMT

I could not agree more. ______________ gull www.long-hot-shower.com

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

Former Member — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 06:50:10 GMT

I think the combination of TI, EVF, new Omega starting blocks, and late bloomer status would create the ideal situation for fast swimming.

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

Former Member — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 06:44:58 GMT

Is TI the only way swimmers have learned proper body position? George, I am not saying TI is the only way to learn good body position. My point is that good body position should be stressed more than evf, for swimmers. TI was used as an example by someone else that TI stressed a reduction in drag. And coach t stressed his evf stuff more. Knelson made the point that the two compliement each other.

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

aquageek — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 01:38:03 GMT

Slightly off topic here...but has anyone seen/head from the "lost" author is this thread Matt Shirley? Good question, Matt was always fun to banter with, along with Mark from MD. And, Tom Ellison also.

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

Paul Smith — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 01:32:16 GMT

Slightly off topic here...but has anyone seen/head from the "lost" author is this thread Matt Shirley?

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

Former Member — Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:11:34 GMT

More interestingly, which were the four gold medals that were won without an EVF?

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

Former Member — Sun, 17 Feb 2008 15:54:09 GMT

I am awed by the fact that one phase of the stroke (EVF) can be marketed. Why stop there? Here a few other suggestions: www.relaxed-recovery.com www.hip-rotation.com .......... and somebody, in a very unsportsmanlike manner, has just (dawg) gone and removed those two sites.............:notworking:

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

Former Member — Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:46:41 GMT

I am awed by the wonderful marketing that TI does but to use TI as a model that improves speed at world-class levels seems flawed. I keep reminding people that 16 of the 20 Gold Medals and 43 of the 60 Medals won in Athens were with a “high-elbow” or Early Vertical Forearm Stroke. If seeing is believing, simply watch the underwater videos of world-class freestylers, backstrokers, breaststrokers and flyers; EVF isn’t a style but a propulsive position that even TI swimmers must get into. TI is great and it’s wonderful because it’s making swimming easier to learn but it’s a teaching tool and it should be kept at that. I am awed by the fact that one phase of the stroke (EVF) can be marketed. Why stop there? Here a few other suggestions: www.relaxed-recovery.com www.hip-rotation.com

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

Former Member — Sat, 16 Feb 2008 07:36:02 GMT

My drills that I throw into my workouts. No more than one length of each per workout - Catchup, Bilateral breathing, Extreme finish, Shark drill, No breathers, Sdk of my starts and turns, Front pause before entry (to front load), Streamline, streamline, Dolphin jumps from the shallow end of the pool making entry into a small hole, Fins for warm ups or warmdowns. I have about 20 I use but they are included as full stroke efforts except the 1 arm fly. I will be back shortly and make a list. If I do get back to racing this year all drills will stop completely and it is very fast swimming that will take over. Chuckie insist that I leave now to go shopping and she is the boss.

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

Former Member — Sat, 16 Feb 2008 07:03:37 GMT

George, What kind of drills do you like and use?

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

Former Member — Sat, 16 Feb 2008 06:40:00 GMT

The catch up drill has been around for over 60 years. We did not call it a drill it was just called catchup swimming. It is not a recent invention.

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

Former Member — Sat, 16 Feb 2008 06:25:13 GMT

It’s not the style of swimming that is responsible for success. I remember when Janet Evans broke American and World Records using a straight arm recovery. You could call her straight arm recover (not to be confused with a straight-arm underwater pull) a “style” of swimming. Her style didn’t make her fast but her underwater stroke mechanics most assuredly is responsible for her success. If a swimmer can make their body more streamline as they swim, it will help them become more efficient. So, like most good coaches in the world, TI promotes improved streamlining (excellent!) but that’s it! I know Coach Marsh uses a catch-up stroke drill (A TI affirmation) but it’s very important to know that he uses the drill for the purpose of teaching swimmers how to “set-up” their strokes to get into a “high-elbow” position. TI teaches a reduction of stroke rates by exaggerating the prone / streamline position which is provides comfort for swimmers. There are noticeable arm positions in TI freestyle swimming that pause or delay effective propulsive positions. Any pause or delay of effective propulsive inertia hinders swimming speed. I am awed by the wonderful marketing that TI does but to use TI as a model that improves speed at world-class levels seems flawed. I keep reminding people that 16 of the 20 Gold Medals and 43 of the 60 Medals won in Athens were with a “high-elbow” or Early Vertical Forearm Stroke. If seeing is believing, simply watch the underwater videos of world-class freestylers, backstrokers, breaststrokers and flyers; EVF isn’t a style but a propulsive position that even TI swimmers must get into. TI is great and it’s wonderful because it’s making swimming easier to learn but it’s a teaching tool and it should be kept at that. Debates about how to improve swimming speed should not be looked at as unhealthy but as wonderful examples of passions worthy of bantering. I think we’ll see that certain fundamentals of fluid mechanics cannot be avoided and must be taught, reinforced and refined for every swimmer. There are simply better ways than others to swim faster and debates like this give swimmers chances to see all sides and make their own decisions. Good Luck, Coach T.

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

Former Member — Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:40:05 GMT

Perhaps we are also limiting our definition to exactly what TI is. Certain things which TL talks about (energy efficiency, ability to shift gears, decreasing resistance, core recruitment) are important ideas especially for a distance swimmer. All of those ideas need to be adapted into a given person's stroke, she could very well incorporate parts of TI theory into her strokes while still allowing lots of other aspects in.

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

Former Member — Fri, 15 Feb 2008 15:41:15 GMT

You know I hate to bring up old threads. Adrienne Binder, a self described Total Immersion swimmer have things changed and how is she swimming now.

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

rtodd — Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:49:03 GMT

I have a question, Does the TI program provide assigned sets, send off times, workout structure, recovery supplements, sleep, as well as teach swim technique? Perhaps both TI and Auburn share in her success? TI provided the technique and Auburn built the engine?

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

Former Member — Fri, 31 Mar 2006 13:25:49 GMT

I have never, ever said that TI "stinks." What I have said is that it is more appropriate for novices, lap swimmers and triathletes. In point of fact, Terry Laughlin admitted on this forum that this is his target audience. Adrienne Binder does not train in a TI program. She trains under Dave Marsh at Auburn. It was suggested (in this forum) that she failed to make the Olympic team in 2004 because she was no longer training using TI techniques. Now you argue that TI is responsible for her success at NCAAs in 2006? Perhaps you should change the title of the thread to Successful Swimmer.

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

Former Member — Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:31:43 GMT

Ah, the irrationality is as satisfying as it is predictable. Frankly, the discussion fora had become a little stale lately. Gull-meister, please note the delicious circularity of your argument. "TI stinks because it has never produced a world-class swimmer." Well, how about Adrienne Binder? She seems to be pretty fast. "It has to be Auburn, and not TI, because I have already demonstrated TI stinks." Seriously, my point is a very small one. I'm not saying TI is great for everyone, or trying to change anyone's mind on whether they like it or not. You're entitled to your opinions. I'm just trying to thoroughly stomp on the misleading chestnut that holds, "TI can't produce world class swimmers." The right swimmer, with the right coach, and years of training and practice, can become world class using TI principles. It can and it has worked, so let's please take that part of the argument off of the table. Matt the Troublemaker

RE: Successful TI Swimmer

Former Member — Thu, 30 Mar 2006 16:17:22 GMT

Originally posted by thewookiee One question then...Why? Why not? There is nothing wrong with a healthy debate over swimming subjects on a swimming forum. If anybody is not interested in reading about it, just don't click on the link.