Question: Underwater dolphin kick

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

Former Member — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:22:58 GMT

Natalie Coughlin curls her lip up to close off her nostrils for underwater backstroke. I've tried it,not as easy as it looks. Anyone else have any tips for doing this? I do this naturally, but it's not the easiest thing to explain. The best I can describe it is that I stick my lips out like a kiss, then use my lower lip to push my upper lip against my nose. If you still going :confused: , I can try to explain it a different way, but it may just be something you have to learn instictually.

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

Former Member — Sun, 11 Mar 2007 15:43:58 GMT

imspoiled;83049 Just a guess here, but I think the reason you get more undulation with your hands at you side is because you are actually starting your SDK from your head. Pressing down with your forehead and letting the rest of the body follow the "wave" from the top down. When you stretch your hands in streamline overhead, my guess is you are only kicking from the waist down. Most likely because you're concentrating on holding the streamline. Try concentrating on starting the SDK from your head while in the streamline position & see if that changes your undulation. Dana Thanks for the tip. Going to try to keep it in mind when next I go a-swimmin' (Tuesday am) and will try to see what it is that leads when going Marine-boy-(Man from Atlantis)-style and whether I can transpose that to arms-forward postion. Cheers

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

Former Member — Sun, 11 Mar 2007 14:24:16 GMT

True, Stud. Lead with the chest. But, you know what they say, "Where the head goes, the chest will follow." Ok, that was bad, but I find if I keep my head/neck to rigid during fly or SDK it is tougher to get the rhythm going. Yeah I didn't think I was leding withthe head but more just letting my neck relax a bit. Well I'll be swimming tomorrow and I can check it out both ways

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

Former Member — Sun, 11 Mar 2007 11:45:56 GMT

I found that true, but I was told to use my chest to start not my head... True, Stud. Lead with the chest. But, you know what they say, "Where the head goes, the chest will follow." Ok, that was bad, but I find if I keep my head/neck to rigid during fly or SDK it is tougher to get the rhythm going.

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

Former Member — Sun, 11 Mar 2007 09:05:33 GMT

3Strokes- Just a guess here, but I think the reason you get more undulation with your hands at you side is because you are actually starting your SDK from your head. Pressing down with your forehead and letting the rest of the body follow the "wave" from the top down. When you stretch your hands in streamline overhead, my guess is you are only kicking from the waist down. Most likely because you're concentrating on holding the streamline. Try concentrating on starting the SDK from your head while in the streamline position & see if that changes your undulation. Dana I found that true, but I was told to use my chest to start not my head...

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

Former Member — Sun, 11 Mar 2007 08:36:13 GMT

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

Former Member — Sat, 10 Mar 2007 14:28:56 GMT

This may seem odd (given that streamlining is scientifically proven to be the way to go), but I find that -from a pushoff- : a) my flutter kick is faster and will take me to the 12.5 m mark (it's a 25m pool and that's the only marking there; no 15m marks) much faster than with a SDK. This makes sense to me, since I was akways a Freestyler and did Flies just for the heck of it. However b) I tried, for fun, dolphin kicking from a pushoff, with my arms by my side (Marine-boy-style, my son's favorite show back then, or was it dolphin-boy TV series of ages and eons ago) and I found that it took me only seven fast kicks to get to the 12.5m mark, while my SDK took me longer and took me 10-11 kicks. I did not have anybody time these two versions. (I've nobody there who I could ask to reliably do it). But with b) the tiles went by much faster. (I somehow know that Ande -if he were to stumble on this Posting- would tell me to get timed by hook or by crook. It won't happen: All the other swimmers at my pool are of the variety of which we make so much fun in other threads and the lifeguards, akready can't read. They're unable to enforce the signs placed at four lanes: Fast - Medium Fast - Medium and Leisure. (No, we don't have Fast, Medium and Slow: too many egos would be offended. We get swimmers in the Fast lane who belong in a puddle in the parking lot. I don't mind their slow speed; they're practically standing still. I just don't want them to stand near the middle of the lane, chatting, while their body mass would displace the Titanic.) It goes without saying that I would never try this (non-S DK) in competition since the speed advantage gained by having my arms at my sides (palms against thighs or palms facing the bottom of the pool and doing a little flutter of their own) would be completely negating my propulsion when I have to move one (or two arms) from that position to a frontal extension, from where I could start my pull. It's just too much of a braking motion. But the point I'm really trying to make is that (at 64) I can get more body undulation (more of a dolphin-like motion) with my arms at my side than in the classical SDK position (hand and wrist and most of the forearm on top of one another, arms against ears -even a bit higher than ears, etc...). Even a semi SDK doesn't help with flexibility (i.e., just fore(4)fingers on top of each other, arms not flattening -or even touching- my ears. In this quasi-SDK I seem to get more of a pronounced undulation going. On an almost related variation (i.e., swimming like a fish): Same with D-Kicking on my side; it's faster than face-down SDK and side flutter kick (90 degrees. OK, confessing, it's more like 88.5 degrees from the horizontal) is faster than a facedown flutter kick..... while doing it, but twisting back to normal slows me down. I just can't win with the SDK. I do do some medium fast 25m's Flies (or is it "flys" for swimming?) but I'll just never be an SDK'er off the starting block (seeing that I also get to use it for a few minutes only once a year.) Cheers

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

Muppet — Sat, 10 Mar 2007 12:25:46 GMT

Monsieur: What the heck is the problem? You're a really strong guy. I'm sure you can get across the pool on the 25s unless you're doing them back to back without enough rest. On your stomach or back? You only work 5 kicks? What are you doing with those five kicks? Lot of amplitude? I use a high cycle low amplitude rate for the most bang for the buck, if I'm not being lazy or unMindful. I'm assuming, perhaps erroneously, that if you become efficient at kicking the whole 25 underwater on a regular basis that will help you out later in a race when it's difficult to stay under the whole 15 meters? I'm gonna watch that 200 fly at zones to see if you are staying under the whole 15 meters. :rofl: Tres impossible, je pense. What sets does Coach Andrew have you do? I will say that Coach Cheryl killed us tonight. But it was a dandy sprinter workout. I'm just a tad out of shape. Couldn't stay under as long as usual ... 600 for time? What's that about? I hope you did at least 3 SDKs off each turn. ;) Who knows what the problem is - i just dont meake it.. as for the working 5 kicks, my race starts usually have 5 or 6, so anything after that is a moot point. That zones race will be interesting, as I will be coming off the 500 2 events before. I've heard its not a pretty combination. Will definetely be shooting for some long underwater time :). Andrew just wants to see us do well at nationals this year! He knows we'll do whatever it takes to do well, and knows if he says 600 fast, we'll do it. I did 1-2 SDK off the walls (it is as long as I can stand it, as I lose a lot of air on turns) except for a few here and there. the 300 was not good, but the 100 was good, went 5,3,2,3 SDK off each wall, 57.4, very good time from a push for me (anything below 59 in practice is usually off the blocks).

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

Former Member — Fri, 09 Mar 2007 16:14:42 GMT

Ooooh tonight I discovered they're much easier "Man from Atlantis" style with hands by sides...why is that?

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

Former Member — Fri, 09 Mar 2007 16:06:40 GMT

Natalie Coughlin curls her lip up to close off her nostrils for underwater backstroke. I've tried it,not as easy as it looks. Anyone else have any tips for doing this? Elvis was good at this too..but not sure he was very streamlined...Seemed to flail his arms a lot. He had good leg flexibilty though probably a Breaststroker. :) Sorry to be goofy Allen.. I couldn't resist

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

Former Member — Fri, 09 Mar 2007 16:04:33 GMT

Apart from all the other good and seemingly valid points made, I find that if I'm on my back (underwater) I need to keep exhaling a stready stream of bubbles, albeit slowly, to keep water from entering my nostrils, whereas, on my stomach (or even on my side at almost 90% to the horizontal), I need exhale only when I want to, as little as I want to, to get rid of the CO2 (as opposed to just wanting to keep the water out of my nostrils). I don't use noseclips. Odd I can "lock" my nostrils. I push my tongue up aganist the rooth of my mouth. Beyond that I can't describe what I do. However...I do exhale while I SDK on a turn from fly to back in the IM...b/c I'm huffing and puffing LOL.

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

Former Member — Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:59:18 GMT

dolphinboy;58811Very interesting subject, I think everyone is different when it come to kicking underwtare either on your back or on your front. I have to say i do find holding my breath for long distances underwater considerably harder to do whilst on my back. I can dolphin kick on my front for nearly 40m without taking a breath, but struggle to get 20m on my back, maybe it because of my lung capacity. I will agree the biomechanics of the kick on the back is easier. Going back to a pint made a whiel ago..i completed a dissertation on dolphin kicking and it it true that when kickig on your back and side the water that you quadriceps kick forward will disperse on the surface or the pool if kicking on your side, But if on your front on a particularly shallow pool the water will rebound of the botom of the pool. Does anyone else find dolphin kicking easier on your front on your lungs? Apart from all the other good and seemingly valid points made, I find that if I'm on my back (underwater) I need to keep exhaling a stready stream of bubbles, albeit slowly, to keep water from entering my nostrils, whereas, on my stomach (or even on my side at almost 90% to the horizontal), I need exhale only when I want to, as little as I want to, to get rid of the CO2 (as opposed to just wanting to keep the water out of my nostrils). I don't use noseclips.

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

Former Member — Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:33:08 GMT

I can get across the pool underwater..it's sadly the depths that I end up diving to that cause me issues. If SDK back from the deep end I have to climb the slope LOL.

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

Allen Stark — Fri, 09 Mar 2007 11:04:46 GMT

Natalie Coughlin curls her lip up to close off her nostrils for underwater backstroke. I've tried it,not as easy as it looks. Anyone else have any tips for doing this?

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

aquaFeisty — Fri, 09 Mar 2007 02:44:14 GMT

I'm faster on my tummy than back. Although when I finally 'got' the whole SDK thing, it was by watching someone really really good do them on his back... and I was initially better on my back too. I'm better on my stomach now just because of lots of practice (all those flipturns). On my back, I seem to kick from my belly button down, whereas on my stomach I kick from my armpits down. ?? Beats me. We did some 25's kick last week on the :35 and, to my astonishment/utter horror, my SDK was faster than my *** kick (no boards, and I give myself one regular underwater pullout anything I'm kicking ***). Good Lord!

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

The Fortress — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:54:36 GMT

Madame, Last time I checked with Coach Andrew (who had me do a 600, 300 and 100 for time tonight, btw), when he says underwater, he means i better be submerged the entire way. I don't question the guy. But I still only make it across 'll actually be using in real life. Monsieur: What the heck is the problem? You're a really strong guy. I'm sure you can get across the pool on the 25s unless you're doing them back to back without enough rest. On your stomach or back? You only work 5 kicks? What are you doing with those five kicks? Lot of amplitude? I use a high cycle low amplitude rate for the most bang for the buck, if I'm not being lazy or unMindful. I'm assuming, perhaps erroneously, that if you become efficient at kicking the whole 25 underwater on a regular basis that will help you out later in a race when it's difficult to stay under the whole 15 meters? I'm gonna watch that 200 fly at zones to see if you are staying under the whole 15 meters. :rofl: Tres impossible, je pense. What sets does Coach Andrew have you do? I will say that Coach Cheryl killed us tonight. But it was a dandy sprinter workout. I'm just a tad out of shape. Couldn't stay under as long as usual ... 600 for time? What's that about? I hope you did at least 3 SDKs off each turn. ;)

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

Muppet — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:46:43 GMT

Muppet: The goal is not to go all the way underwater on 25s, although even I can do that without my mono on the belly. The goal is to stay underwater longer throughout the whole race. That ain't easy, for sure. I stay under less and less as the distance increases. Madame, Last time I checked with Coach Andrew (who had me do a 600, 300 and 100 for time tonight, btw), when he says underwater, he means i better be submerged the entire way. I don't question the guy. But I still only make it across 'll actually be using in real life.

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

The Fortress — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:35:17 GMT

Same here. I think its about breathing and/or controlling your exhalation. I can always travel further face down because I can exhale more slowly face down. Because of the size of my nose, all the air wants to rush out when i'm face up! (even with a deviated septum):thhbbb: What's your excuse? I don't have the size of my nose excuse. :thhbbb: But I do have a hot French temper to match your hot Italian temper. :thhbbb: Beats me. I'm not a swimming physicist. I seem to have some of the ingredients for good SDK-ing: core body strength, flexible ankles, quad/ham strength ... And I do practice it, which I think makes a huge difference. Oddly, I seem to go further on backstroke when I am not in a perfect streamline position and put the head down. But I have been yelled at for this, so I try not to do it. Also, unlike what LaineyBug was saying above, I have a naturally arched back and I wonder if that works against me on my back. For better streamline and recruitment of the core (not just in SDKs either), it seems like you should swim as if someone has punched you in the gut. Seriously, keep the stomach tight and back unarched. Or maybe, as Geochuck says, I have stronger arms than shoulders and so I am better SDK-ing on my stomach? I'm not bad on my back (at SDK-ing, Rich :thhbbb: ), especially off the start, but there is a difference in ease. Could be the exhalation thing too. I guess I should use that nose plug. I know backstrokers that use it just to get the underwater distance. I just couldn't keep mine on. Lost two immediately ... Muppet: The goal is not to go all the way underwater on 25s, although even I can do that without my mono on the belly. The goal is to stay underwater longer throughout the whole race. That ain't easy, for sure. I stay under less and less as the distance increases.

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

Muppet — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:33:24 GMT

This is soooo difficult. We can only go so far underwater why try to go farther then allowed. Amen, my brother. When we do underwater stuff, I almost never make it aross the pool. I don't try to do it this way, but I usually run out of air and pop up right at the 15m mark. My body is subconsciously telling me "Jeff, you may have 10 SDKs and then you must come up or get DQd.":banana:

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

Former Member — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:01:20 GMT

This is soooo difficult. We can only go so far underwater why try to go farther then allowed.

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

Former Member — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:01:23 GMT

I have to come up sooner when I SDK on my back. Although when I'm kicking on the surface, I'm faster dolphin kicking on my back. I try not to have to much amplitude. Others? Same here. I think its about breathing and/or controlling your exhalation. I can always travel further face down because I can exhale more slowly face down. Because of the size of my nose, all the air wants to rush out when i'm face up! (even with a deviated septum):thhbbb: What's your excuse?

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

funkyfish — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 05:51:50 GMT

Here's my 2 cents on the "rising up with stomach down" part. I've noticed that when I'm SDKing, if I don't concentrate a little more on the hamstrings working during the "up" phase, then I tend to surface quicker than I want to. It's probably subjective, but I feel that my kick is more powerful when I emphasize both the up and down parts of the motion. I don't care for doing it on my back underwater because of the water in my nose thing, but on flip turns I'll do 1-2 kicks upside down, and rotate while dolphin kicking. Takes about 4-6 kicks before I start pulling.

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

poolraat — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 05:09:25 GMT

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

The Fortress — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 04:51:34 GMT

I'm going to drag up this old thread because everyone seems quite interested in SDKs at the moment -- except Warren. Dave can register his "no post" objection too. I seem to have an opposite experience of most people here. If I do timed 25 or 50s SDK-ing, I'm faster on my belly face down. And it's easier to hold my breath. Due to flexibility? I have to come up sooner when I SDK on my back. Although when I'm kicking on the surface, I'm faster dolphin kicking on my back. I try not to have to much amplitude. Others?

RE: Question: Underwater dolphin kick

Paul Smith — Mon, 05 Jun 2006 08:56:32 GMT

Since JS posted this we've made some progress in figuring out his problem: - Classic mistake in using a dolfin kick in either position; amplitude. On free/fly his kick was mostly from the knee's vs, his "core"......for some reason on back starts/turns he was kicking correctly. One of the reasons I see people make this mistake is because they use fins incorrectly; you need to keep a much "tighter" higher speed kick vs. big old sweeping ones. - Turn position; On free and fly you also need to come off the wall and transition to horizontal by kicking on your side...this can be one kick or as many as maintain your momentum (On fly I'll kcik out about 5-7 on my side before rotating thru). kicking dolfin (correctly) on your side is by far the fastest way to move thru the water. JS found that he's more successful "old school" (ala Clay Britt) in taking only two dolfins on fly or back and getting to the surface where he's stronger....to bad h missed his chance to prove hit in FL! :) - Breath Control; big/common mistake is to make a big exhale as you push off th wall. As much as I hate to admit it Mark Gill pointed this out to me a few years back when he was coaching....a loswbreath release can really extend your time underwater.