Race Club Article

RE: Race Club Article

Former Member — Wed, 22 Mar 2006 08:18:32 GMT

I too saw the ad, and noted who was the spokesman. It adds another level of meaning and/or irony. Dude was Bode Miller, who compiled a fairly impressive record of participating without finishing 1st, 2nd or 3rd in the Olympics. I don't think that is what his sponsors had in mind when they shot the commercial, but hey, the message still works. Matt

RE: Race Club Article

knelson — Wed, 22 Mar 2006 03:42:24 GMT

Originally posted by Jeff Commings Nothing to complement the laying around. Exactly. You just need sports to complement all that lying around :)

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FlyQueen — Wed, 22 Mar 2006 03:34:28 GMT

I think what Bode was getting at was that there is such a stress in today's society on winning and that it's becoming more and more, "It's not how you play the game it's whether you win or lose." As opposed to "It doesn't matter if you win or lose it's how you play the game." If kids are only shown that winning is important they are missing out entirely ...

RE: Race Club Article

aquageek — Wed, 22 Mar 2006 02:53:33 GMT

Originally posted by Jeff Commings Heck, if I had a kid I'd advocate skateboarding over football. If you had a kid you'd realize about 99% of the broken bones these days are due to trampolines, skateboards and in line skates, not traditional sports.

RE: Race Club Article

Jeff Commings — Wed, 22 Mar 2006 02:39:08 GMT

You can sit around and watch TV and play Nintendo all day and not get fat. I've done that all my life. If the kids don't get involved in a sport, then they have physical issues. Nothing to complement the laying around. Heck, if I had a kid I'd advocate skateboarding over football.

RE: Race Club Article

knelson — Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:45:54 GMT

Originally posted by Sam Perry I think we have fat kids b/c parents don't know a darn thing about nutrition and/or don't take the time to feed their children properly. That might be part of the problem, but I think kids sitting around watching TV and playing Nintendo is a big factor, too.

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Former Member — Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:44:38 GMT

Originally posted by mattson There was a commercial on during the Winter Olympics, where the speaker (one of the Olympians) was stating how in the US the emphasis is usually only on the winners. Kids are taught, "if you can't win, don't play". In this atmosphere, the result is that fewer kids compete at all (since they won't win). And then people wonder why obesity is on the rise... This is a stretch to say the least. We have fat kids b/c we stress winning? I think we have fat kids b/c parents don't know a darn thing about nutrition and/or don't take the time to feed their children properly.

RE: Race Club Article

Former Member — Tue, 21 Mar 2006 14:03:24 GMT

I agree that children, especially in summer league, should get ribbons or something for improving their best time. Most young children will automatically think only about place, which can change greatly depending on the other swimmers. Giving them ribbons for improving their personal best times may encourage them to swim faster, even if they never place well. I started summer league swimming at age 11 with no experience swimming year-round. I was also very slow - my first 50 free in a meet was over a minute. Fortunately, I was mature enough to focus on how my times were improving, not just on place. During that first summer, my 50 free time improved almost 10 seconds, enough to make me want to improve more, which is why I still swim now.

RE: Race Club Article

Former Member — Tue, 21 Mar 2006 13:38:41 GMT

Aquageek, I agree with you a lot more than you would expect by reading our posts. Absolutely, we should not redefine or bowdlerize the meaning of first, second or third. They are what they are, and the State Champion probably worked just a little harder and put more of himself into his event than the kid that showed up for practice about half the time but swam the same event and finished way back in the pack at the local meet. My beef is recognizing ONLY first, second or third. I have two problems with that. First, kids that worked and swam their hearts out to finish in the pack, but a few places higher and a few seconds faster than last year have achieved something too, and that needs to be recognized for what it is. Second, you find a small enough pond, and you too can be the biggest fish in the water. Some people are so much more talented than the competition that "winning" has little meaning for them. Yes, they could seek out faster meets, but maybe they want to for example, go to a Div III program for the education and not have to sacrifice it for their swimming career. They've made a choice and a valid one, but we're kidding ourselves if we think "winning" in those conditions has much meaning. My larger point is that a healthy program will recognize different kinds of achievement in different ways. An unhealthy program will hyperfocus on one goal (dual meet winning record, conference champions, record setting swims, size of the program...whatever) and treat everyone who does not contribute to that exhalted goal as a red-headed step-child whose presence is tolerated only to the extent they don't "get in the way." So I say give out medals, but only to 1st, 2nd and 3rd and treat them as meaning what they mean. Recognize swimmers who break PRs and what that means. Keep track of school records and remind folks from time to time what that means. Give out "letterman" awards to those who participate faithfully on the team, even if they never make an A relay. Moreover, on a team that focuses more on younger and first time swimmers, skew the rewards more towards participation. A couple of examples from my piddly little summer league coaching experience. We made a point of taking EVERY kid who wanted to swim at the League Championship Meet, not just our 4 fastest swimmers in each event. That might mean a couple of middling fast swimmers gave up their third event so one of our slower swimmers could get two splashes. Experiencing the mad-house of Leagues was part of the experience. Also, we intentionally changed the dynamic of what events kids wanted to swim by having "ice cream" day for every kid that swam at least once in the dual-meet season all the individual events in their age group. Instead of "coach, I don't like that event." We got, "coach, I need to swim this event." And, everyone still on the team at the end of the dual meets legitimately earned the ice cream. Especially in an Olympic driven sport like swimming, 1st, 2nd & 3rd have special meaning. We need to preserve that and recognize it for what it means. We don't need to turn it into a fetish and disregard everything else that is going on. By the same reasoning, Aquageek is 100% correct when he argues we can't make "participation trophies" the only award we give out. Awards and recognition need to heterogeneous. Matt

RE: Race Club Article

mattson — Tue, 21 Mar 2006 09:36:03 GMT

There was a commercial on during the Winter Olympics, where the speaker (one of the Olympians) was stating how in the US the emphasis is usually only on the winners. Kids are taught, "if you can't win, don't play". In this atmosphere, the result is that fewer kids compete at all (since they won't win). And then people wonder why obesity is on the rise... Found this document during a google search: "If you can't win, don't play" is an unhealthy attitude, says psychologist that I think says it more eloquently than I can. (It is a Word doc, but you can also get it in regular text interpreted by Google.) (I agree with Matt and AGeek that we shouldn't celebrate mediocrity. But I agree with John Furedy's point that we should emphasize competition more than just coming in first place.)

RE: Race Club Article

aquageek — Tue, 21 Mar 2006 09:05:11 GMT

I like the idea of speed breaker ribbons, that is a far cry from trophys for folks who do personal bests, which was what was suggested. It's good to recognize accomplishment for kids. My point was that not everyone wins a race and therefore you shouldn't get some award for just showing up.

RE: Race Club Article

swimr4life — Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:33:34 GMT

Aquageek, I agree that we shouldn't encourage mediocrity. I get what you are saying but, I disagree with the fact that you only "win" if you come in first. You can only control what you personally do in a race. You can't help the level of your competition. I coach a summer league team in a county that is among the fastest in the nation. Our county meet is almost as fast as our state USS meet! To motivate my swimmers I give "Speed Breaker" ribbons. If they improve their time, they get recognition. The goal of summer league is to get children interested in the sport of swimming. We have a very measurable sport that allows us to know when and how much we improve individually. I know I personally would rather improve 3 seconds and get second than add 3 seconds and "win".

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aquageek — Mon, 20 Mar 2006 04:20:06 GMT

Originally posted by mikeh Matt, I find your post fascinating. In my opinion, there should be awards for every age grouper that does a "best time" (this mkay necessitate the creation of a database of some sort), and an award given to the swimmer who cut the largest percentage from his/her previous best time. Those kids are champions too. I think this is the problem with youth athletics today, namely everyone gets a trophy for showing up so no one gets the sniffles. You should get a trophy or medal for 1st - 3rd place, or whatever is designated, not for just participating or swimming faster than before. You are only a champion if you win.

RE: Race Club Article

mikeh — Mon, 20 Mar 2006 04:14:38 GMT

Matt, I find your post fascinating. In my opinion, there should be awards for every age grouper that does a "best time" (this mkay necessitate the creation of a database of some sort), and an award given to the swimmer who cut the largest percentage from his/her previous best time. Those kids are champions too. I have swum countless races in my time, and only on rare occasions can I recall where I finished. But I can recall the time I swam to the hundredth, and whether it was my best time or not.

RE: Race Club Article

Former Member — Fri, 20 Jan 2006 16:11:02 GMT

I try to swim distance and IMs. I've done this all of my life. I could do a pretty good 1650 and a good 100 IM. Doing a 100 fly though was always very rough on my lungs. I was never a good 50 sprinter. when I ran I always trained great distances. My upper body was never very powerful but my legs were. I used then a lot for fly kicking. I think that it might be possible to do distance and work your 100s. but since most people don't breath during a 50, why would lung functions really matter?

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Former Member — Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:02:00 GMT

Matt, I used to be a runner who also swam. I would run to swim practice even into my early 30s. I think that running definitely helped my lungs but I don't know about leg muscles. At Knox there was a better cross country program then swimming. Now I swim & row. I really think that rowing has helped a lot, especially with my back & shoulders. Though personally, I think that cross-training is very individualistic and dependent on what the reason the person is doing the cross training.

RE: Race Club Article

Former Member — Thu, 19 Jan 2006 06:22:05 GMT

I was taught that aerobic conditioning involved three things: 1) volume of blood circulated (heart) 2) ability to add oxygen and remove CO2 (lungs) 3) ability to metabolize O2 in the muscles and remove metabolic byproducts (muscles) With this model cross training would develop the first two but might not develop the third if it didn't work the specific muscles used in swimming. That said, it's unclear to me how relevant aerobic conditioning is to a 50. It might be interesting to examine the times for the 50 and the two splits in the 100 for swimmers with different training approaches to see if there is a correlation. When discussing Thorpe's move from the middle distances into the sprints it was asserted that distance training killed sprinting speed. Is there any controversy about that? My personal experience is that I have never been able to add muscle mass during periods where I was doing heavy aerobic training, so I can imagine that such training would be detrimental to building the strength needed for sprinting.

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Former Member — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:20:08 GMT

Sam, I'm down with you on this one. I don't endorse everything Gary does or says, but he is a terrific and constructive provocateur. Towards the end of his article, he made an observation that really turned my assumptions on their side and got me thinking: "I'm not railing against being in shape or working hard, a positive side effect from distance swimming. I do a lot of aerobic work. I just don't do it in the pool. Define aerobic work. Is it keeping your heart rate up near 200 for over twenty minutes? We do exercise that maintains a heart rate between 150 and 200 for a lot longer than that. "It takes a lot of laps to accomplish aerobic threshold if you only seek aerobic threshold through swimming. If you don't go insane first from all those laps then your shoulder will explode eventually. All those laps hurt your stroke technique, which is absolutely necessary in the 50 free. Your heart is too busy pounding away to know what exercise is making it work so hard. And it doesn't matter! You accomplish the same objective and save yourself from burnout and shoulder surgery. At the end of the season in those last 15 meters of the 100 free you'll have the finish your coach is looking for." WOW! I'm aware of some of the new thinking on dry land exercises; however, my understanding is that they target muscle strength, and not aerobic capacity. I know in my college program (a very modest Div III program 25 years or so ago), we experimented with group runs as supplementary training. However, we abandoned this experiment when it appear that developing the leg muscles for running was antagonistic to developing a strong kick. I would be interested in knowing what dry land, aerobic regime they are using. They certainly produced results in 2004. Matt

RE: Race Club Article

Former Member — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:55:22 GMT

And article #2. I think he makes some pretty controversial statements in this one, but it is food for thought. (For those of you asking, no I am not a Gary Hall disciple. I just like the fact that he makes you think.) www.theraceclub.net/.../index.html P.S. I also know Pierre, and like him a lot. He does have a problem with sprinters, but he can definitely make great middle distance and distance swimmers.

RE: Race Club Article

Former Member — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:18:37 GMT

Taking a year off to train is an extreme example; it seems as though you're proposing a two or three tiered system: obviously talented kids with Olympic potential (presumably identified through some sort of Eastern European screening process), kids who may win a scholarship to a Division I or II school, and those kids who want "swimming-lite." Life is about trade offs. If you want to swim (or dance, or play violin) and you want to do it well, you will have to give up some time at the mall or in front of the TV. Anyway, that's what I try to teach my kids--whatever the activity they choose. At a certain point, you've got to make a commitment.

RE: Race Club Article

Former Member — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:46:03 GMT

Originally posted by gull80 Isn't the goal of the coach to help each and every one of his swimmers achieve their full potential, whatever that may be? It seems to me that talking about "full potential" requires consideration of trade offs and balance. Michael Phelps took a year off from school to concentrate on training (leading into the Olympics), something he felt was necessary to achieve his full potential but which I would suggest is not appropriate for every swimmer. If one accepts that some trade offs with the rest of the swimmer's life should be made the question becomes where the balance should be. Perhaps there can even be a training stream for kids who want to use swimming as a lifelong health and fitness tool, or for swimmers that just want to sprint and are willing to trade off a few hundredths of a second in their races for endless hours of 10,000m aerobic development workouts.

RE: Race Club Article

mattson — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 12:48:45 GMT

"...because swim meets are so darn predictable." I have to question this one. Although many meets are predictable (like many football/basketball/name-your-sport games), there are the "big game"-type of meets that are completely unpredictable. I'm thinking back to high school, especially with division rivals. One year their team pulls the upset, next year our team does. One (HS) meet that comes to mind was against Spencerport. We were in their tiny pool area, and they had the place packed with loud fans. (My ears were ringing for hours after the meet.) The first place swimmers in each event were "predictable", but the meet was being decided by 4th and 5th place swimmers. Our inspirational moment came when our backstroker knocked a megaphone out of a fan's hand. (He came forward to yell at our medley relay.) My proud moment was when I out-touched their 2nd 500 swimmer (after trailing the whole race) to get 2nd place. Best time by about 5 seconds. Meet came down to the last free relay, very close race for first. (And hardly predictable...)

RE: Race Club Article

dorothyrde — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 07:44:51 GMT

Same thing at the HS in Champaign. There is a tremendous rivalry and the meets can be very exciting. However, USA meets are not like that. Especially the big ones in Indy or Chicago where there are 15 heats of 11-12 girls in an event(can you tell I have a 12 year old?). And I used to have a boy and had to sit through all those heats...

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Former Member — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 07:28:29 GMT

Most teams have different training groups based on ability. And of course there is always summer league for those who want just a taste of competitive swimming.

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Former Member — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 07:08:44 GMT

Perhaps this black and white view is part of the difficulty. Most potential activites for children and youth are willing to offer different programs for different levels of commitment. You don't necessarily have to commit to the same amount of practice as an aspiring concert pianist to study piano. Balance can be a virtue too. You also don't have to train for the marathon, or even the 10km to train for the 100m sprint in track.