Should USA Swimming recruit?

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

Former Member — Wed, 21 Dec 2005 13:04:42 GMT

The times have changed, Paul, and for professionals the borders of a country, as related to who they play for, are as arbitrary as the borders of the city they were born in. Was it here that Seinfeld was quoted as saying that in the pro games what we were really rooting for is laundry? I just can't get that excited about laundry, whatever the color. It is not competition between nations I object to (or nationalism, as you refer to it) but the extremes that countries go through to do well at an event that has no relevence to the quality of the nation. We find countries cheating (I am primarily referring to drugs, here) and going bankrupt trying to show that they can host a sporting event. For what? Does the fact that China can (may) win so many swimming events make you think that that country is a better place to live, or deserves more respect than if it had no swimmers? Is Athens better off with its debt, or if it had spent the money more wisely in things that provided long-term benefits for the city, or never taxed the money at all? I agree with Matt, the more money in the sport the more healthy it will be. And that means professionals and everything that goes with them. Perhaps someday all of the olympic sports will be like Soccer, Baseball, Hockey, Tennis, and Basketball -- with the players mostly too young for prime time, or not quite good enough, because the pros can't be bothered (all of these sports), the sports organizing body is threatened (soccer), or the schedule interferes with the pro league (hockey, baseball, and soccer). Bicycling is another example where the pro sport has mostly left the olympics behind. Those are the *healthy* sports, with lots of participation at all levels of competition. Swimming should want to be more like them, not stuck in some backwater of nostalgic memories for amateurism, where a huge amount of work is spent on the unlikely chance of winning an event every four years, followed by selling insurance for the rest of one's life.

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

Paul Smith — Wed, 21 Dec 2005 06:19:22 GMT

This thread was about the Olympics and countries paying athletes to represent them without becoming citizens. In my opinion it opens up a very new and in my opinion bad change to the Olympics and wht they have been in my lifetime. As long as the Olympics are about country vs. country competition (which I like), as long as nations come into opening ceremonies as a team, as long as a countries national anthem is played on the awards stand then I feel the people representing those countries should be citizens; natual born, dual or converts. We have professional sports teams that do/should buy up top talent and compete.........keep the Olympics what it is and let pro sports go on. For those of you who want this event to change because it incites "nationalism" which can be seen as good and/or bad, I simply disagree. The 1980 US vs. Russia Hockey game, the US vs. China soccer match, the US vs. Brazil vaolleybal match, on and on and on are things that I feel fortunate to have witnessed and moved by what took place and would like to see more of these in my lifetime.

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

aquageek — Wed, 21 Dec 2005 06:12:50 GMT

I did not go to dook. As a matter of fact, dook is pretty much the sworn enemy of my school.

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

Former Member — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:17:37 GMT

I did use a personal anecdote to strengthen my case, and it is fair to respond with another. However, a High School exchange experience is hardly relevent if we want to talk about top-quality intellects or top-quality swimmers. I have been taught by foreign students, worked with foreign students, taught foreign students, and mentored foreign students. I did this a several high quality academic institutions at the Ph.D. level in Phyics, Engineering, and Chemistry, at the Univerisity of Chicago, University of Colorado, Notre Dame University, and Stanford University. Not all of my experiences were positive, most were. My anecdotal experience is also 'common knowledge,' that good students improve the academic institution and creates higher-quality scientists. I think the same is true for swimming. So if the purpose of scholarships is to make better American world-class swimmers than scholarships should be given to foreign swimmers. If the purpose is to make a more competitive NCAA, scholarships should be given to foreign swimmers. If the purpose is to make better swim teams that win more meets, then scholarships should be given to foreign students. If the purpose is to reward middle-class swimmers who have worked hard but aren't good enough to become finalist in the NCAA champs . . . well, John has me there.

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

Former Member — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:38:05 GMT

Geek, Who said anything about "praising the US" ? You're getting out on a tangent here. My anecdote on the Brazilian foreign exchange student was a response in kind to Phil's own stated experience regarding international students in the US. I disagree with him in part from personal experience. Training foreigners in the US for the altruistic world wide benefit of sports is pure crap. If the planet earth had a solar system competition in sports you'd have a point. We could then all join interntional hands and sing "khumbaya" on the same world relay team. But the reality is quite different and simple. You represent your country at the Olympics. If you want to win you must be competitive, not stupid. John Smith

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

Former Member — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:09:57 GMT

Originally posted by TheGoodSmith These are two competing thoughts. Either there are enough students and athletes here to do the job or there are not. My opinion is that there are certainly enough here, and they deserve our money and attention first. Your steadfast refusal to separate out the different actors and their interests is undermining the logic of your arguments. There is no contradiction in saying that there are enough great swimmers in the US to fill the Olympic roster and saying there are not enough high quality students to do all the research that universities want to do or enough world class domestic swimmers to allow all the college teams to have a few. So far the disagreements all eventually come down to different ideas on what the motivations for offering athletic scholarships are or should be. Ignoring those differences just results in people talking past one another.

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

Former Member — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:28:53 GMT

Lindsay, It doesn't matter if its the "cold war" as you say or the Australians or Dutch in the 21st century. It's the same battle in the end in the pool. As I've said before, it's "competitive" swimming, not "open swim". .....and... yes.... I'm not interested in funding other countries training programs and olympic efforts in any capacity. I suppose if the South Africans immediately acknowledged their success after their free relay at Greece on TV as being partially (if not directly) attributed to the training and money they received in the US, I'd feel less adamant about the whole issue. But to assume or portray it as a "South African" victory........ I fundamentally disagree....... the only thing South African was their parent's address. John Smith

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

Former Member — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:14:04 GMT

Phil, First you say.... "I would rather federal money be spent of good foreign students than feceral money be spent on mediocre domestic students.......... If there were enough domestic students to do the work (note, this is five or six years of near slave labor) then they would do the work. If there aren't enough domestic students, foreign students will be brought in. " then you say.... "The United States can buy athletes if it wants, but it does not have to. I do not think it is a good idea for the United States to be buying athletes, it has plenty of good ones as it is, and I would rather spend the money on better research." These are two competing thoughts. Either there are enough students and athletes here to do the job or there are not. My opinion is that there are certainly enough here, and they deserve our money and attention first. My experience with a foreign exchange student living in my home during my senior year in highschool (and swimming on our team) was not as rewarding as your academic experience with international students. I found him selfish, critical and unappreciative. He took a swimming scholarship at WVa and left for home in Brazil eventually. As far as I am concerned, our country is no better off from his visit. John Smith

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

Former Member — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:42:49 GMT

I too was amazed to find myself agreeing with the geek's posts on the scholarship/recruiting topics. He has to be a product of Duke (truly one of the top universities in the world) Ian. PS: the geek will be pleased to know that the US looking at building a $4 Billion moat/fence along the Canadian border which should keep him safe from the likes of Cruise. (but might cost a few swimming scholarships).

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

Former Member — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:20:13 GMT

I too think the sky is falling. I see a post of the geek's, and I am all ready to reply with crushing logic and wit, and then, I read his post! I agree with it! (just so long as we don't talk about it over a cup of coffee)

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

aquageek — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:51:20 GMT

Originally posted by TheGoodSmith Training foreigners in the US for the altruistic world wide benefit of sports is pure crap. I think, bottom line, is we have different views of competition. You think sticking our heads in the sand and hoping we are the best is the way to promote competition. I think exposing ourselves to the best and even paying for it from time to time makes us better. Considering the US' continued dominance in sports despite a huge increase in participation by the rest of the world, maybe the head in the sand thing just isn't the way to go.

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

Former Member — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:22:39 GMT

Enough already with the bickering about NCAA scholarships. You argue until you're blue in the face over pennies in the grand scheme of things. Lest we all forget, Paul started this conversation about Qatar paying European athletes a whole lot more money than a college scholarship to swim for their country. That is the real cheese. That may change the nature of our sport. We in swimming have not yet got our heads around the fact the Olympic Committee threw out the shamatuerism rules several years ago. We still think that there is no money in world class swimming, because there never has been any in the past. That was only true because the Olympics kicked you out of the pool if you took any. That is no longer the case. There is professional open water swimming in Australia because the very best can earn a living in prize money and endorsements. There is professional triathloning the world over because the very best can earn a living in prize money and endorsements. We are just now taking baby steps in generating prize money and endorsements in swimming. Like it or hate it, Qatar's action is changing the terrain. AND, looking at this from another angle, just how much of a swimmer's career is supported by 4 years of a college scholarship? How about all the money mom & dad put into club swimming? How about all the support before a swimmer heads off to college? I don't hear much call for U.S. clubs and high schools to kick off of their teams all the non-U.S. citizens on the argument that we are spending "American" dollars to support other countries' future Olympians. However, I think the ages of say 10-18 have a lot more to do with creating a world class swimmer than finishing school from 18-22. The skin-deep jingoism about college scholarships is so tiresome. Who cares?! This affects so few swimmers in any meaningful fashion. Matt

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

aquageek — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:02:15 GMT

Your personal experiences with one Brazilian 20 years ago really don't justify some global argument with putting US students at a disadvantage by closing our borders and limiting competition. I'm not exactly sure what you think our industries would gain by insuring that we only educate US citizens who must leave college and spend the next 30-40 years of their lives competing on a global scale. It's kinda like when I thought I was a pretty fast swimmer cause I could keep up with most of the fast guys on my team. Then, I went to a national meet and realized I kinda sucked. But, it challenged me to improve more. And, I'm don't understand why you think folks should jump out of the water and immediately praise the US. That's kind of silly and it would look silly.

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

Former Member — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:41:20 GMT

I think no country should be aloud to recruit athelits from other countries its just wrong you should have to be a american national to compete in the usa team, or a british national to compete in the uk team... etc...

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

Former Member — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:09:07 GMT

You ask.... ...."are the coaches acting out of pure self-interest or the interest of their programs" These two interests had better be aligned, or there are certainly going to be problems. Gull is dead on. Coaches grab talent from abroad to further their own team's success at NCAAs (and possibly win) which helps their own professional success as well as job security at the school. You state..... "If foreign governments start giving their swimmers support to train at US schools don't all the same arguments support banning them attending at all?" Answer: No.... the issue is not one of banning foreigners altogether from swimming in the US. The issue is one of funneling money to US citizens over foreigners at a collegiate level. They come on their own dime if they want to. Note: Except for a few exempt professional swimmers now, the NCAA already is a mini Olympic preview. The N in NCAA hardly means National any more.

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

Former Member — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 08:51:16 GMT

Originally posted by gull80 I submit that foreign swimmers are recruited for one reason--they're fast and will win races, consequently the team will win championships. That's the bottom line. I don't believe they're brought in to create a more competitive training environment. The fact that we're training our competitors for the next Olympics doesn't seem to be much of a disincentive to the coaches. I am very doubtful that any coach would recruit or spend scholarship money on a foreign swimmer if that swimmer couldn't compete for the school. Presuming everyone accepts that, the question becomes whether the benefits to the school of having a more winning team justify the expenditure of the scholarship money? In the end this applies to domestic as well as foreign scholarships. How much does it matter to the school if their star swimmers are foreign or not? If they can get a world class foreign swimmer or a not world class domestic swimmer should they sacrifice the success of their program in hopes of creating a less competitive environment for the US team at the Olympics? It is easy to talk about selfish coaches but are the coaches acting out of pure self-interest or the interest of their programs? And, although slippery slope arguments are generally the last refuge of scoundrals, why stop at banning scholarships? If foreign governments start giving their swimmers support to train at US schools don't all the same arguments support banning them attending at all? After all, no matter who is paying they are receiving the benefit of the coaching and facilities and will go on to compete against US athletes in international competition. Your tax dollars will still be going to pay to build the facilities and pay the coaches and US citizens will still be displaced, and the N in NCAA will still stand for National so what are those foreigners doing competing in your meets?

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

Former Member — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 07:18:01 GMT

I submit that foreign swimmers are recruited for one reason--they're fast and will win races, consequently the team will win championships. That's the bottom line. I don't believe they're brought in to create a more competitive training environment. The fact that we're training our competitors for the next Olympics doesn't seem to be much of a disincentive to the coaches. As for academics, most private universities strive for a diverse student body and admit qualified foreign students to help achieve that diversity. However, I believe there are quotas limiting the number of out of state students who are admitted to state universities (and charged a higher tuition).

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

aquageek — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 06:29:50 GMT

Originally posted by Matt S This affects so few swimmers in any meaningful fashion. Bad day, Matt and I agree. According to some, however, this is a serious issue impacting America in ways we can't even begin to fathom. National security is at risk. Now, I'm taking my kids to see Chicken Little because the sky is falling.

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

Former Member — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 06:19:00 GMT

Phil, If foreign countries paid as many US athletes to come to their countries to swim I would somewhat agree with you. But there is little to no benefit for really good US swimmers to train abroad these days. The programs in other countries like Australia for example are great but offer no incremental or intrinsic benefits over great training programs in the US. Consequently, there is almost ZERO exchange in when it comes to US swimmers receiving the same financial benefits and superior program inducements in foreign countries. The imbalance is troubling. It's not give and take...... it's just give on the training side. Secondly, you assume that foregin students are mostly "good students" as you put it. That's a hell of an assumption. I can assure you we have plenty of "good" students and "good" swimmers in the US that could use the money first and our industries and swim teams would benefit from it. Relying on foreign students for your advancement in educational intellect is marginal and somewhat sad if you think about it. Relying on foreign swimmers to make US swimmers better is also a farce. Been there and seen it, Phil. I swam against foreign student athletes at NCAAs and then watched them go home to their own countries for international competition. It's frustrating to say the least. Insulting is probably a better description. When I swam at UT we had no foreign swimmers. Yet, I can assure you, I found the competition QUITE sufficient to advance my own career. Unless of course you think that list of former World Record and American Record holders on UT back then could have also drawn such wonderful and incredible additional workout benefits and advancements from foreign competition. Your argument makes me laugh a little when I think about the intensive competition that already exists on top 10 Division I teams. To think that foreign swimmers are actually "helping" US swimmers get faster on a daily basis in workout and then substantiating it as a reason for funneling scholarship money away from other US talent boarders on the absurd. I've said it before on this forum. For the men (or women) in the Olympics on a relay team representing the US, it is a battle in the pool. Believe it or not, like it or not, there are years of training, life time goals and country pride on the line. They are not interested in making friends with each other just before they step up on the blocks. For less than 4 minutes, it is total acquatic warfare. It's not about getting along during this time. It's about winning.... period. Your concept of continuing to train foreigners does not help the US. We will have to agree to disagree. We are so far apart on the spectrum we almost touch. John Smith

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

aquageek — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 04:43:57 GMT

Smith: You ever planning on quoting any facts that show there is detriment to foreigners coming to the US and improving our competitive abilities in swimming and industry? If not, you are just flapping your wings in your little cage. Considering the US has always prided itself on competition and then whooping that competition, don't you think you are bing a little bit of a chicken, in a chicken cage? Does that Brazilian exchange student still give you nightmares? Is this really a personal vendetta? I'm petty sure you could beat him in a swim meet these days.

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

Frank Thompson — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 04:03:47 GMT

"and the N in NCAA will still stand for National so what are those foreigners doing competing in your meets?" The N is just a symbol and not real. Like the NBA allowing foreign players into the league. The USMS Nationals allowing foreigners to compete in our meets.

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

Dennis Tesch — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 02:58:05 GMT

Originally posted by aquageek Huh? The vast majority of athletes never earn a single dime professionally. And, I'm not talking 51%, it's like 99.9%. What you think the only external reward is money.... you have got to be kidding me. I believe most athletes don't earn money, but most athletes don't compete because they love to do it. Kids know what a our society is about. Why do something for nothing, when you can get something. Man, my four year old daughter expects some kind of treat when she achieves a soccer goal. I don't give her one, but she still believes that she should have an external reward. What else are they suppose to believe when all the see on TV is hugh rewards for physical activity.

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

aquageek — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 02:18:25 GMT

I do agree with gull's point here. I just don't think it's any big national emergency.

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

aquageek — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 02:10:17 GMT

You've continued with your heartfelt speeches until blue in the face yet have failed to produce a single piece of information to bolster your claims that the US is falling behind in sports in any way whatsoever. This, despite rampant evidence to the contrary. And, every single credible university in the world strives to have a well rounded student body, including foreign students, to improve the quality of the education and educational experience. Do you really think your beloved UT would be the world class institution it is if it closed it's doors? C'mon man, then it would be another Bob Jones U. People don't go to UT becuase it is a little ethnocentric closed door university. It took me 5 minutes (that you didn't take) to go to the UT website and note a whopping 3.8% of your student body is foreign. Interestingly, 30% of those are Chinese. Don't you think it might benefit UT students and the US in general to learn alongside students from the country that will be the greatest economic and military adversary to the US for the foreseeable future? Who is losing out with this? Again, you fail to realize that in swimming, maybe, and in industry, absolutely definitely, the ability to interact and compete alongside the brightest and strongest only makes the US stronger. It's not rocket science, it's really rather simple.

RE: Should USA Swimming recruit?

Former Member — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:48:54 GMT

No way. The US wouldn't do this. They don't have the funds to pay their current world class swimmers what they should so they aren't going to go out and recruit new swimmers. That being said. If I were a US National Team Member, I'd be pissed. It is somewhat different for a country like Qatar to recruit. They don't have their own program, maybe this will help to develop that. They want to put themselves on the map. They also are getting athletes (at least thus far) from small countries without huge teams or even competitive teams. They aren't going to land a top level American or Aussie athlete. Those swimmers have far to much pride in their country to switch over. The Aussies also have tons of support - financial and fan. The US doesn't have as much, but I'd be surprised if a US based company sponsored US born swimmers that swim for another country. I don't see this as equal to a college scholarship.