World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

David E. Morrill — Sat, 06 Oct 2007 10:57:55 GMT

Just to keep this LATyCAR issue current and contemporary, here is an edited version of history: LATyCAR October 2007 synopsis > 1989 and 1990 The “Latin-American & Caribbean Masters Swimming Championship” conceived between Venezuelan, Puerto Rican, Cuban and Mexican Masters attending at the Woodlands LC Nationals. Announced in Venezuela a year later with the sole purpose of introducing MSI/FINA rule Masters south of the Rio Grande. > 1991 Championship hosted by the Triple Crown Masters Foundation in Venezuela. Fully sanctioned by the FINA member federation. Meet Director later became President of the federation. Event inaugurated by the President of the Venezuelan Olympic Committee President. All officials belonged to the federation. 375 participants from 9 countries. > 1993 Championship hosted by the Puerto Rico Masters League, fully sanctioned by the FINA member federation. Meet Director Jose de Jesus (Jr.) and meet Referee Jose de Jesus Sr. Inaugurated by the President of the PR Olympic Committee. All officials belonged to the federation. 479 participants from 11 countries. > 1995 Championship hosted by the Casuarina Masters Club and fully sanctioned and supported by the Barbados Swim –FINA member- Association and inaugurated by its President. All officials belonged to the federation. Open waters was innovated to the event. 630+ participants from 13 countries. FINA announces the event in their newsletter. > 1997 Championship hosted by the Nelson Vargas swim clubs, fully supported and sanctioned by the Mexican FINA member federation and inaugurated by their President. All officials belonged to the federation. Open waters in a river. 1,249 participants from 15 countries. FINA promotes meet in their newsletter. > 1999 Championship hosted by the recently incorporated non-for-profit association, Latin-American & Caribbean Masters Swimming Championship “LATyCAR”, having obtained recognition # from USMS. The meet was officiated by USAS officials. Ocean open waters run by Randy Nutt, assisted by Stu Marvin. 1,100 participants from 19 countries. FINA promotes LATyCAR in their newsletter. > 2001 LATyCAR and Jerry Olson representing ASUA-UANA engage in lengthy communications and meet to reach an agreement for unification of a Masters program in the Americas. > 2001 Championship hosted (and sanctioned) by the FINA member Costa Rican Swimming Federation, the meet Director was their VP and acting President. The meet Referee was the same USAS official for 1999 plus her stateside team of people, assisted by federation officials. Open waters, Water Polo and Diving were included. All relays on the same day were innovated. Over 700 participants. Announced in FINA newsletter. Mr. Olson passes away . > 2003 Championship hosted (and sanctioned) by the Barbados FINA member association. LATyCAR Council experiments with a “no intervention” format to see results. 375 participants from 16 countries. FINA promotes the Championship in FINA newsletter. > 2004 LATyCAR Council members hand carry the Venezuelan FINA member federation’s letterhead recommendation to Riccione and deliver Spanish and English signed versions to FINA Masters Committee and to ASUA’s Orban Mendoza through Jose de Jesus. > 2005 Championship hosted and sanctioned by the Sao Paulo Masters Federation fully supported and sanctioned by the Sao Paulo Swimming Federation as well as sanctioned by the Brazilian Masters Association “ABMN” the officially recognized Masters ruling body in Brazil. Named “ALL AMERICAS – LATyCAR” it was open to all countries of the continent. All sports, swimming, polo, diving, open waters, synchro and postal events. Over 800 participants (not withstanding the “situation”) from 21 countries. FINA communiqué wrongfully issued just prior to the meet after all had been set up, plane tickets bought, hotels paid for, officials organized, and claiming LATyCAR: 1.) Being a for-profit company; 2.) Not having sanctions and, 3.) Running the meet. Within 12 hours all allegations were proven incorrect with documents in hand. As all was ignored, The Sao Paulo Declaration was published and WAMO.info site created. > 2007 Championship unlikely as LATyCAR rules stipulate a FINA member sanction is necessary. Panama, Venezuela, Dominican Republic, Argentina, Mexico and Canada express interest in hosting however all were denied sanctions due to the 2005 FINA communiqué banning LATyCAR. “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke.

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

Former Member — Sat, 02 Sep 2006 09:00:55 GMT

Let me add that I find THIS discussion thread so much more enlightening and constructive that an other thread (where I have oh...shall we say gone after the thread originator). I now have a much better appreciation of both sides' positions, thanks to the factual and measured conversation here. Thanks to all participants. Matt S

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

Frank Thompson — Fri, 01 Sep 2006 04:19:30 GMT

Eric: This is a discussion we had last year regarding the issues with LATyCAR, ASUA/UANA, FINA, and USMS. This may provide background as to what happened.

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

David E. Morrill — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:55:56 GMT

Mr. President; USMS is undoubtedly –and LATyCAR has license to assert this- the benchmark of all Masters bodies… -but please- be assured that neither USAS nor FINA had anything to do with USMS’s origins and thus present situation: it has been entirely your MASTERS constituency doing it, obviously recruiting from your available resources. For the second time in Masters history, USMS is being looked on for international guidance and leadership relative to FINA. Q’s for you AND others to ponder/share, here are two: 1.) Did USMS investigate Mendoza’s written acusations independently? 2.) USMS, being a benchmark governing Masters body in the world, shouldn’t it establish a precedent and example by requesting FINA to explain itself? LATyCAR invites USMS to investigate Mendoza’s allegations independently in order to seek fairness and transparency and report it to all of its members. "Fair trial"... then you report an independent judgement. We urge you, as President of the most important MGB in the world and host of the 2006 Worlds, to seek the truth and make it public. Masters athletes deserve to know who was guilty of deceit: LATyCAR or FINA's representative Mendoza. Simple.

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

David E. Morrill — Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:32:49 GMT

Rob; Passionate…? Up until the conclusion of our International Hall of Fame ’99 championship, yes. My first Masters swim meet was back in ’76-’77 with USMS and my “first contact” was June Krauser. A half dozen of us who would participate mostly in Florida and Nationals, including Mission Viejo, Dearborn, Brown University, etc. Masters in Latin America? No such animal. So, that was my education-USMS-: the State Department’s ‘dream’ of making the USA system available for dissection, analysis, conclusions… “copy and paste” ! The gravy train came to a halt in early ’83 as currency limitations came into place and traveling became onerous. In ’84 I became Board member of the North American Association, now Venezuelan American Friendship Association http://www.avaa.org where a group of us try to open USA positive influence to nationals here in Venezuela. As chairperson of the then Sports Committee, we organized, introduced and implemented USMS copied Masters swimming program to Venezuela. And so was the Triple Crown Masters Friendship Swimming Foundation born: thanks to USMS and the AVAA. Please notice “AMISTAD” in both names. The “Triple” as it’s commonly known today, is alive and well and runs Masters in Venezuela in perfect symbiosis with our Federation. http://www.triplecorona.org As President of the Triple, I oversaw LATyCAR’s inception in ’90 in order to ‘export’ the system to other LatyCar countries as Masters was practically non-existent. It would also give us opportunities to mingle with others. Success… Yes, passionate until after the culmination of our 5th event in ’99 at the International Hall of Fame! (Yes USMS extended its recognition). In 2000 I had my first international gladiator confrontation in swimming politics ! LATyCAR then approached FINA/ASUA/UANA’s American President Jerry Olson for a strategic alliance. We were close to an agreement when he died. Then came Puertorican President Orban Mendoza, and my passion quickly turned into righteous indignation and perseverance. That’s another story, perhaps tomorrow.

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

David E. Morrill — Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:01:00 GMT

There's a lot more below the surface that MASTERS throughout the world should consider... Let FINA take care of their core business: Olympic material... Masters for Masters is the best route, it's the way USMS has worked since its inception... FINA -ans its politicians- only hopped onto the gravy train! Take a look at this short presentation herein attached. Regards, David

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

Rob Copeland — Sat, 19 Nov 2005 04:03:43 GMT

David, As the president of LATyCAR and one of the founders of WAMO, I understand your passion for your organizations. Just as I, as a 20+ year member and the current president of USMS, am extremely passionate about USMS and swimming. And while I doubt I can sway the opinions of many of the forum posters from outside of the United States and those who aren’t members of USMS. At least let me try to shed some illumination as to how swimming works in our country. Swimming in the United States is very much a partnership between a wide array of aquatics organizations; including USMS, USA-Swimming, United States Aquatics Sports, YMCA, YMHA, colleges, high schools, and community and private aquatics organizations. This partnership occurs at the grass roots level; my club’s coach is also a local USA-Swimming coach, when I run a meet I rely on my local USA-Swimming club to help provide officials and meet personnel, and when the USA-S club or high school runs meets I volunteer. And this partnership occurs at our national championships; where we have run national championships at some of the greatest college pools in the country, and we rely on timers and officials from the ranks of our USA-Swimming partners. As well as at the national operational level, where USMS is a full member of United States Aquatic Sports along side USA Swimming, USA Diving, USA Water Polo and United States Synchronized Swimming. In my 2+ decades of active involvement in USMS, partnering with the aquatic community is the way USMS has worked. This is a leading factor in the tremendous success and growth of USMS. And while I am extremely biased, I would hazard a guess that USMS is one of the most successful adult athletic national governing bodies in the world today. We are where we are today because of the phenomenal leaders that came before me, their passion and vision for Masters Swimming, our amazing volunteers and staff, and our bond with our partners in the aquatic and adult fitness community.

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

David E. Morrill — Thu, 17 Nov 2005 03:15:51 GMT

"........Smile Pan Pacs Yes... Pan Pacs will "suffer" the same fate as LATyCAR & ALL AMERICAS... anyway you probably should contact Mary Sweeney about their fate... ......." I just ran across some "historical" information, see the attached word doc, it's short and sweet... Anyway, FINA will never work for Masters as we ourselves do. I -finally- agree with Jim Miller on something he purportedly said about FINA being a "brick wall"... I insist that we walk around it... the best way is getting "into" the WAMO mode...! Food for thought

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

Former Member — Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:36:10 GMT

Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com FINA Rocks! So you approve of the way FINA forced affiliates like USMS to send out warnings to all their members threatening suspension if they participated in the meet in Brazil, even though the meet was properly sanctioned? Did you notice any apology or accountability when they were finally forced to acknowledge that the meet was properly sanctioned? www.usms.org/.../latycaradvisory

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

Former Member — Wed, 16 Nov 2005 15:30:08 GMT

We must remember that just because a thing has an international organization that controls it, it may not be a sport. that is what lead to Ballroom dancing being an exhibition sport in Sydney. FINA Rocks!

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

Former Member — Wed, 16 Nov 2005 15:05:31 GMT

It’s not only the power behind GR 4 that’s too much… it’s also how and when they use it. The ALL AMERICAS LATyCAR Championship held in Brazil was sanctioned by the appropriate organizations in 2003: FAP - www.latycar.org/.../aval_fap.jpg ABMN - www.latycar.org/.../aval_abmn.jpg APMN - www.latycar.org/.../aval_apmn.jpg I wonder why ASUA/UANA waited until September 2005 (2 years after the sanctions were signed, after more than a year of promotion, and one day after the entry deadline when most of us had already paid our registration fee, our plane tickets and our lodging) to issue their suspension threat based on the ALLEGATION that the meet was not sanctioned… Were they REALLY not aware that everything was perfectly in order and that the proper sanctions had been signed and made public 2 years earlier, or were they just waiting for the perfect time to create panic among the 700+ registered athletes? FINA definitely DOES NOT ROCK!

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

Former Member — Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:31:09 GMT

Originally posted by Rob Copeland Let me clear up what appears to be a misconception on your part. FINA did NOT force me to send out a communication to USMS. I did it as a service to USMS members, passing along an advisory that was given to me. I guess one can interpret the word 'force' in various ways. As you said in your advisory once FINA delivered the advisory to USMS you had a responsibility to your members to pass it on. I believe that USMS acted entirely properly under the circumstances. I do not believe that FINA should have the powers it has given itself in GR 4 and that it was improper for them to send out the advisory they did under the circumstances and that it was improper for them to put their affiliated members in the position that they did by sending out the advisory they did. In light of these views I disagree with Craig's evaluation that "FINA Rocks!"

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

David E. Morrill — Wed, 16 Nov 2005 02:19:15 GMT

Some of you know that LATyCAR began in 1990 prior to the FINA officially declaring itself in control of Masters... LATyCAR has promoted fitness, friendship and competition via Masters swimming in the Americas south of the Rio Grande with extreme success. LATyCAR emulated USMS and used it as a benchmark. The championships have been in Venezuela, Puerto Rico, Barbados (2), Mexico, U.S.A. (!), Costa Rica and Brazil. Polo is our latest super-success story! No reason to kill LATyCAR...!! Who will be next? World Masters Games, IGLA, World Military Games, World Police and Firemans Games, etc.? All the hard work has been ours (ei.: USMS...!) not FINA, in fact the start-up was MSI's Masters at work! Cm'on... USMS's International Committee alone has more experience in Masters than all of FINA put together...! A Masters for Masters program is the most reasonable and honest approach, let's push for it. http://www.latycar.org

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

Rob Copeland — Wed, 16 Nov 2005 01:52:43 GMT

Lindsay, Let me clear up what appears to be a misconception on your part. FINA did NOT force me to send out a communication to USMS. I did it as a service to USMS members, passing along an advisory that was given to me. I have no specific knowledge of what FINA was or wasn’t forced to acknowledge, so I can’t really speak to that point, I assume you do.

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

David E. Morrill — Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:13:05 GMT

You all are on the bull's eye... each one...! What ever possesed Mendoza -ASUA/UANA- to write such a communiqué...? I suspect, if WAMO has any effect, that FINA will have to modify some of their rules (lawyers have a name for those one sided agreements) HOWEVER, the Bureau itself needs renovation. Also, I find no where, and I think I read just about everything on their site, nowhere that FINA accounts to anyone... internal checks & balances...? Now then... why not place your comments -good or bad- directly in the WAMO site...? You can anonimously if you like. Regards, Davidhttp://www.wamo.info

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

Kevin in MD — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 10:31:19 GMT

Originally posted by Tom Ellison Kevin, I never thought about my Alcatraz or Golden Gate Bridge swims that were not in accordance with FINA Rule C 7.3 that states each FINA Member Federation has acknowledged in its national rules that FINA is the only recognized body in the world which governs Swimming, Open Water Swimming, Diving, Water Polo, Synchronized Swimming and Masters internationally. By the rules both you and I should be thrown out of USMS.

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

ljlete — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 04:53:30 GMT

Well the first post asked a question and no one has answered. So maybe I will try. The FINA rule was not put in place because of masters. It was put in place long before FINA was interested in masters. To understand the rule, one has to look at where it comes from. The International Olympic Committee needs to have a single organization that it recognizes as the authority for each sport. Each of these authorities must truly control the sport world-wide otherwise there would be real mess with athletes not knowing who to believe. The way these organizations do this (and I believe that if you check similar Olympic sport organizations they will have similar rules) is to have a severe penalty for those that would support rival organizations. Having said that, history suggests that these types of organizations do not care about the local competitions that may be held like the open water swims. Organizations like the NCAA, YMCA are affiliated members of United States Aquatic Sports (USAS) and therefore are covered I believe. It is only when someone attempts to run an event that infringes on what FINA believes is their territory (like internation championships), do they get involved. Actually, I believe that most of the sanctions imposed by FINA have involved those who have violated the rules against contact with nations that were being sanctioned such as South Africa years ago. Very few if any athletes have been sanction this way because it doesn't come up very often. That is not to say that they won't do it in this case though. I hope this helps.

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

Former Member — Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:23:13 GMT

Kevin, I never thought about my Alcatraz or Golden Gate Bridge swims that were not in accordance with FINA Rule C 7.3 that states each FINA Member Federation has acknowledged in its national rules that FINA is the only recognized body in the world which governs Swimming, Open Water Swimming, Diving, Water Polo, Synchronized Swimming and Masters internationally. Heck I swam those four swims under Envirosports Ltd.'s authority....and I was PROUD to swim under Dave Horning's governess for he puts on outstanding events that are well run and professionally organized. NEXT!

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

Kevin in MD — Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:52:45 GMT

I think I'll send Fina the entry lists of all the people who competed in unsanctioned open water swims last year. Between the New York City swims, chesapeake bay swim, one or the other of the alcatraz swims, the Jersey shore beach swims, and innumerable swims in Autralia; they'll be taking throusands of us off of the membership rolls of our respective Masters swim organizations. Ridiculous you say? Yes it's ridiculous. The rule exists only for those situations in which someone get a burr up their ass and wants to screw with people.

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

Former Member — Wed, 09 Nov 2005 06:00:10 GMT

Back in the 80s & early 90s, UEFA & FIFA had terrible fights about sanctions. I think anytime there is an organization that exists to determine who has what poweres, there is always politics.

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

Former Member — Tue, 08 Nov 2005 16:02:29 GMT

Originally posted by Tom Ellison I posted my thoughts on FINA on this Forum many years ago with respect to FINA dragging their feet on the drug enforcement issue. I GOT crucified by many long time USMS members and seriously higher ups in USMS. I have always thought FINA was somewhat suspect in the decisions they made on the tough issues based solely on their lack of action on performance enhancing drugs ….back when EVERYONE knew state run programs were operating at full speed. My point, FINA is a politically run organization that defends itself through politics and intimidation. So Tom, what organization doesn't defend itself through politics 7 intimidation?

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

Former Member — Tue, 08 Nov 2005 13:10:41 GMT

Gosh, many organizations do not defend themselves through politics & intimidation.....they do so by providing decent, professional and sound support to their membership. All one has to do to seriously look inside the mind set, attitude and ethical standards of this organization is read LindsayNB's post. I'd say FINA's colors are showing there in very open terms. Maybe I was one of those kids on the playground that never got into being bullied and intimidated by some moron tin horn....and that is exactly how I view FINA's stance on this issue. It was very clear to me years ago that FINA is going to do what serves their purse strings best...... If you bully and intimidate most swimming competitors into zero association with the competition, this is forcing them into submission through fear and threats. FINA makes it very clear, their sand box…..or NO SAND BOX!

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

Former Member — Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:20:03 GMT

The really scary thing about this is that you lose your subscription to USMS Swimmer when FINA suspends you.

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

Former Member — Tue, 08 Nov 2005 07:48:38 GMT

Most organizations feel the need to at least be a little subtle while intimidating their own members while others do not. Apparently having "any kind of relationship" with any non-FINA affiliated organization is sufficient grounds for being suspended. FINA's response to WAMO: (from www.fina.org/.../masters_index.htm ) 28 October 2005 - WORLD AQUATICS MASTERS ORGANIZATION FINA has, through one of its Member Federations, received information about the “San Paulo Declaration” of 15th October 2005 directed to all Masters around the world and containing several false statements about FINA, its objectives and rights, and resulting in an invitation to constitute the World Aquatic Masters Organization, known by its acronym “WAMO”. In accordance with FINA Rule C 7.3 each FINA Member Federation has acknowledged in its national rules that FINA is the only recognized body in the world which governs Swimming, Open Water Swimming, Diving, Water Polo, Synchronised Swimming and Masters internationally. FINA Rule GR 4.1 – 4.4 require the following: GR 4.1 No affiliated Member shall have any kind of relationship with a non-affiliated or suspended body. GR 4.2 The exchange of competitors, administrators, directors, judges, officials, trainers, coaches, etc., with non-affiliated or suspended bodies is not permissible. GR 4.3 The holding of demonstrations and/or exhibitions, clinics, training, competitions, etc., with non-affiliated or suspended bodies is not permissible. GR 4.4 The Bureau may authorise relations with non-affiliated or suspended bodies as in Rules GR 4.1 through GR 4.3 above. The consequences of violating FINA Rules GR 4.1 – 4.4 are stated in the FINA Rule GR 4.5: Any individual or group violating this Rule shall be suspended by the affiliated Member for a minimum period of one year, up to a maximum period of two years. FINA retains the right to review the suspension made by the affiliated Member and to increase it up to the maximum of two years in accordance with the circumstances involved. The affiliated Member shall abide by any such increase made on review. In the event that such individual or group has resigned its membership with the affiliated Member or is not a Member, it shall not be allowed to affiliate with that Member for a minimum period of three months up to a maximum period of two years. FINA retains the right to review any such sanction imposed by the affiliated Member and to increase it up to the maximum of two years in accordance with the circumstances involved. The affiliated Member shall abide by any such increase made on review. It shall be noted, that FINA neither has any relationship nor any intention to recognize the World Aquatics Masters Organization or any organization under the name of LATyCAR, which means that FINA will apply the above mentioned rules to any Member Federation, Member of a Member Federation or individual member thereof having any relationship with this organization. We thank you for your kind attention and remain at your entire disposal for any questions you may have.

RE: World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO)

Former Member — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 12:06:56 GMT

I posted my thoughts on FINA on this Forum many years ago with respect to FINA dragging their feet on the drug enforcement issue. I GOT crucified by many long time USMS members and seriously higher ups in USMS. I have always thought FINA was somewhat suspect in the decisions they made on the tough issues based solely on their lack of action on performance enhancing drugs ….back when EVERYONE knew state run programs were operating at full speed. My point, FINA is a politically run organization that defends itself through politics and intimidation.