kids: parent of 8 year old needs help!

RE: kids: parent of 8 year old needs help!

Former Member — Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:43:50 GMT

As EyeoreSAM says there have been several of the top swim coaches in the world have even been non swimmers. Robert Kiputh for one member of the hall of fame.

RE: kids: parent of 8 year old needs help!

Former Member — Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:28:44 GMT

Originally posted by bip Lacking credentials is one thing... never having swum competitively, AND never having coached, AND no credentials is a different thing entirely. Anyway, it seems most of you want to make an assumption that only a pushy parent could take the position that I'm taking, even though you have no evidence of my being pushy. If I was pushy, I would already have stepped in, spoken to the coach about my concerns, and started coaching her myself. I'm deathly afraid of that, as I see those kinds of parents everywhere and they horrify me. My USS swim coach did not have any competitive swimming experience at all, but we were an EXTREMELY successful team and he was and still is an excellent coach. We had olympians on our team and more JO qualifiers than you could shake a stick at. Sure its helpful to have been a competative swimmer, but not necessary if you understand the sport. I am a coach and a mother of a 10 year old girl (who is not in my group). I watch as she is coached and although we have different styles, I don't: 1. make suggestions to the coach 2. coach her on the side. After all, the head coach should be making sure that all of his/her helpers are going in the right direction. I run into parents that ask questions like this on a daily basis and at 8, as long as she is happy, healty and not in any danger then don't worry. If you were to approach me (and only if you were to come and approach me), I would think that you were pushy. Just my two cents!

RE: kids: parent of 8 year old needs help!

Former Member — Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:40:41 GMT

Bip Where do you live in Canada I may have some suggestions as to coahes in your area.

RE: kids: parent of 8 year old needs help!

Former Member — Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:30:47 GMT

Lacking credentials is one thing... never having swum competitively, AND never having coached, AND no credentials is a different thing entirely. Anyway, it seems most of you want to make an assumption that only a pushy parent could take the position that I'm taking, even though you have no evidence of my being pushy. If I was pushy, I would already have stepped in, spoken to the coach about my concerns, and started coaching her myself. I'm deathly afraid of that, as I see those kinds of parents everywhere and they horrify me. Of course she's old enough to be conflicted. When she joined I was concerned that it might be too much (combined with her other spsorts) and so I said she could join and then decide after 2-4 weeks whether she was ok with it. So now, in asking her how she feels, she indicates that she can't make up her mind. She comes to me often to say she doesn't know whether she wants to stay. She says she likes swimming with her friend, but she doesn't like the fact that no-one is helping her with her freestyle and butterfly anymore, and she is scared of embarrassing herself in those strokes. I try to reassure her, but she keeps saying she doesn't know whether she wants to keep doing it, but doesn't say one way or another whether she wants to quit. When I tell her it's ok to quit, she says no. My daughter is one of those kids that loves to be taught, and (yes, even at 8) has great focus. (also, she's a real goodie two shoes, teacher's pet, etc) So, she doesn't like to feel that she's "just swimming", as she puts it. She's asked the coach for specific help and told "don't worry, you have many years to learn to swim". She's used to her other sports where she always gets instruction. Maybe she's been spoiled by a succession of great coaches who had no problem combining fun with teaching. Of course all of them have actually played the sports they were teaching and were keen to pass on that joy. Michael Heather's comment is to the point. I'm quite prepared to devote the time, but I don't want to rub the coach the wrong way, and worried whether I would be overstepping my mark. (and worried about looking pushy, although I gather from the postings that I'm already guilty on that point) Also, if I did do it, I would be interested in any tips (direction, referrals to books, articles, etc) that would allow me to provide some basic coaching that would not conflict with the coach. There are some basics to swimming that I'm sure everyone agrees on, but I'm sure there are some other things I might pass on that might conflict with whatever the coach is learning in her "learn to coach class". Besides, where my daughter needs the most help, I'm the most vulnerable. (I was a pathetic butterfly swimmer - but she quite likes it) I feel like I'm only good for breastroke and distance freestyle. So, if I do gingerly help, any suggestions on sources for things I can pass on that will be very neutral and common to all coaching techniques?

RE: kids: parent of 8 year old needs help!

Former Member — Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:00:05 GMT

Bip At eight years of age I would suggest you relax a little and don't be pushy even though you say you are not. Let her get into the feel of swimming with a coach and give this coach a chance. If she moves up to the next rung of coaches too soon that could be worse than having what you think, a bad coach. Not all good coaches have the credentials, but I do know bad coaches that have all the credentials that I would not let a child of mine swim for. Coach shopping has ruined swimming in Canada. Every one wanted to move to swim for the Johnstons and boy were they burned.

RE: kids: parent of 8 year old needs help!

Michael Heather — Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:23:24 GMT

So teach her what you know. It has been done many times before. You are the technique tutor and the coach gives her the practice time she needs for training. Your daughter is 8. She is incapable of being conflicted, she just wants to have fun with her friends. If she likes to race, you will have to make sure she gets the training to excel, because she certainly does not know what to do. If the coach cannot or will not give her the technique training you think she needs to move on to another level of competition, it is up to you to make sure that she gets it. It really boils down to the amount of time you are willing to invest in your daughter's swimming. The coach that you have described and your strong feelings about his competency have already determined what you think needs to be done. Now you have to decide whether or not you will do it.

RE: kids: parent of 8 year old needs help!

dorothyrde — Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:04:13 GMT

I have a feeling that suggestions from you would not be welcome, especially if this is as weak of a coach as you say. Really, I would find her a private teacher you can trust, that you know knows the stuff. And one that is fun, and will bond with your daughter. I believe an 8 year old CAN make a decision if a program is right for her. I don't discount that a child of this age can partake in decisions like this, they are little people and have opinions. I remember what it is like to have my 8 year old in swimming and it is exciting and you want the best for them. And technique is VERY important at this age. So if she is not getting it there, and it is not an option to move programs, then seek out technique elsewhere. You can TRY to help her yourself, but sometimes that really is not the best for her or you. My daughter is 12. She takes a semi-private half hour lesson once a week and does two 10 week sessions during the season, one in the fall, one in the winter. We have not done this in the summer due to the distance to this guys house from our house(in the winter he moves his lessons to Champaign). I let her choose that she wanted to do this. She feels it really helps her a lot, plus this guy comes and watches the kids race, so he sees how the strokes break down in races too and then takes it back to the lesson to help them there. These lessons are not an overnight cure. It takes time for them to learn, apply and train. I have taken lessons from him myself, and he is very good. Try to ask around the competive community and see if there is someone like this there. Parents are your best resource.

RE: kids: parent of 8 year old needs help!

Former Member — Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:17:54 GMT

Originally posted by bip I'm having a lot of difficulty with the suggestion that technique isn't important, or relevant. I'm also having a lot of difficulty with the suggestion that fun and technique are mutually exclusive, or with the suggestion that only a pushy parent would want both. This has nothing to do with my not approving of the coaching "style" of the person. I know that I did not suggest at any point that technique is not important. I would never say that. I work with kids your daughters age, my age (not really a kid), and teenagers and technique is important at any age! If the coach that is in question is new, she/he is still finding their groove in dealing with the kids and their parents. Just think of this, how would you feel if there were fifty parents looking over your shoulder constantly at your job and always evaluating your work? I would imagine that this would be pretty tough for any profession. It is hard to be under a microscope every time you set out to do your job and learn in the process. I know that when I first started I was extremely anxious at the fact that there were all eyes and ears on me. This coach should be given a chance to get used to being on "stage" night after night.

RE: kids: parent of 8 year old needs help!

Former Member — Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:46:10 GMT

Bip: I would like to interview as your child's coach. You and I seem to be on the same page. I was an All-American swimmer in college, I have an advanced degree and I am maticulous, organized etc... People like me expect to make $100K per year (I am only 29), but I am certain that won't be a problem because I am exactly what you are looking for. The sad fact is, you are right to hope more from your coach, but unrealistic to expect it. So the only question is, should you offer up suggestions to the coach? I don't think that will help. PS: In the long run it won't really matter anyhow. Your daughter either has it or she doesn't. When she gets older a great coach will be able to draw it out of her, I am sure of it. Good luck!

RE: kids: parent of 8 year old needs help!

Former Member — Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:18:20 GMT

I have even coached basketball players never played basketball. It was a great team.

RE: kids: parent of 8 year old needs help!

Former Member — Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:09:27 GMT

Even Bill Boomer didn't swim, infact I believe he had a background in soccer, and he helped make alot of changes in swimming.

RE: kids: parent of 8 year old needs help!

Former Member — Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:07:44 GMT

Yes, but you cannot ignore the rest. Many of the best coaches were lousey athletes, or didn't compete. But to not have swum, AND to not have any certification AND to not have coached are not good in combination. Even then, I'm ok if someone is realistic and open and transparent. If someone at least tries to break down the strokes, a lot can be achieved. I guess it's not possible that a club could be short of coaches due to reorganization and be so desperate that they get anyone who will volunteer to fill in? (I even accept that in 5 years, this person may become a great coach if she sticks at it, AND if she frees up enough time to devote to it) I know every other suggestion is more palatable, but I gather from what everyone is saying (ok, not quite EVERYONE) that there's no way that you can have a bad uncertified coach with neither swimming background nor coaching experience? I have zero problem with a coach with no swimming experience - in fact, that's why I'm reluctant to do the coaching myself. As to the age thing, I LOVED swimming growing up. Nevertheless, every coach I ever had was able to contribute to my techique. I don't know if they were good, but they tried. One of the least experienced couldn't figure out why I couldn't get my backstroke respectable and was secure enough to go to another coach for suggestions (which worked!) I'm having a lot of difficulty with the suggestion that technique isn't important, or relevant. I'm also having a lot of difficulty with the suggestion that fun and technique are mutually exclusive, or with the suggestion that only a pushy parent would want both. This has nothing to do with my not approving of the coaching "style" of the person. So far, of the complaining parents, I'm the one that's been the most in the background. I'm trying to find a good suggestion which doesn't involve creating waves (pardon the pun) and which doesn't put pressure on my daughter. Nevertheless, the swimming shrinks are convinced that there must be something wrong with me for wanting to get more for my money (not inconsiderable, I might add) than just pool time.) I find Dorothy's answer much more constructive - does anyone know of anyone like that in Toronto? My ideal, I think would be to find someone like Dorothy suggests, and have that person help my daughter as well as perhaps also give me tips as to what to watch out for. Anyone have any suggestions for Toronto...? Geo?

RE: kids: parent of 8 year old needs help!

Former Member — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:50:33 GMT

Unfortunately, I can't shop around till this time next year. Every other competitive program in the city has a waiting list (we're in Canada and swimming resources are probably not as plentiful as in the States). If I'd known what she was getting into, I probably would have put her into a different club, or re-registered her with the "fun racing only" program. At least I can get back to that in January, but she has to wait until next September to get in somewhere else. As for her lead, she's the one that's conflicted. She has a good friend swimming with her that moved with her to this club. Her friend is quite restless about the swimming she's getting (her friend is a serious future talent), but desperately wants to race. (she's very competitive) My daughter is very competitive once a race starts, but would be fine with more relaxed swimming if her friend joined her. My daughter feels, however, that no-one is helping her with some of her strokes, and I've been reluctant to step in and help her. I taught her to swim, and felt comfortable working the kinks out of her strokes at a more rudimentary level, but at this point I wanted to bow out. So when she followed her friend to this club, I was thrilled. Now I'm not.

RE: kids: parent of 8 year old needs help!

Former Member — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:31:51 GMT

Mom and Dad are only in the pool when we take her swimming outside of training, but we're a big sports family. We cross-country ski together every weekend in winter (that's when the swimming has to take a back seat, because my daughter is a phenomenal cross-country skier) Mom and Dad are serious cyclists, and my daughter is sports crazy. We also all skate together and we show up at all her sports, including her soccer matches. She has to give up something soon to make way for the extra swim time. As for the repeated fun references - that is a given. My daughter only does things she enjoys, and we work hard to protect that. Also, unlike some people, we don't believe that fun and competition, or fun and technique improvement, are mutually exclusive! I guess I compare the swimming to her skiing where she's had terrific coaches who imparted technique along with enjoyment of the sport. I really don't see why she can't have a lot of fun, along with a bit of technique improvement.

RE: kids: parent of 8 year old needs help!

Former Member — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:13:40 GMT

like the other posters, it's important that she's having fun and meeting new friends, and maintaining a positive self image. I've been swimming since I was 6 and don't really remember anything competitve until I was about 11 (when all of a sudden it got serious...and by 12--you get the idea). What i remember from being under 11 is: making friends, having fun, enjoying the support of the older kids, looking forward to swimming, being in awe of the older faster kids, and getting the support of my parents. The best thing you can do is keep her active, take her to higher level swimming competition if possible, and being around all the great role models that swimming attracts. And is mom or dad in the pool? or at the tennis court? that helps kids too, seeing mom and dad engaged in sports too.

RE: kids: parent of 8 year old needs help!

Former Member — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:04:58 GMT

I don't know if the bad habbits will right themselves later on, but I believe that they can be righted. If that makes any sense. I mean my university team does extensive drills to correct our backstroke form (and other forms too, but mainly backstroke right now...). A lot of us had good coaches growing up, but sometimes we're still making stroke / body position errors....certainly not something that would get us DQ'ed...but enough to slow us down considerably.

RE: kids: parent of 8 year old needs help!

Former Member — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:46:10 GMT

As for fun, she was having just as much (maybe more) at the lower level. (the extra money saved would go an awful long way towards her college fund). I am concerned as to whether she'll still find it fun if she gets DQ'd, but I think she's relatively safe from that. Re do I know more about coaching? As regards any normal coach, obviously I would say No. As regards this coach... I don't know - I know I know more about the strokes. I had no intention of getting involved in the coaching - I figured now that she had a real coach I could get out and leave it to the experts. But that's the problem - she clearly isn't. She isn't correcting major problems, including those that will get kids dq'd. Re safety - again, because of everything else, I am worried, but I'm no expert - hence the question. I know I don't like seeing them doing all that heavy stretching before they've even warmed up, but I'm reluctant to interfere. I'm hoping that's ok for younger kids, but it's not something I feel comfortable with. I wouldn't hire a coach for the very reason you've enumerated. I don't want a conflict. (although there isn't any technique instruction going on to interfere with...) I think instead I just want to stop her technique from getting REALLY bad habits, and I don't really trust myself. So, ideally I'd just like some answer that kind of gently guides her towards some stroke improvement. I don't want her going backwards! So, do people really believe that it doesn't matter what bad habits she picks up between the ages of 8 and 10? That all of that will simply "right itself" later on? I have some trouble accepting that.

RE: kids: parent of 8 year old needs help!

Former Member — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:44:39 GMT

Yeah, I think because she's only 8 you don't really need to focus on teaching her yourself or drilling her extra. In fact, if you try to make her work more than she already is she may come to dislike the sport. At that age I think it's more important to develop a love for the water and the sport and to remain healthy and uninjured!

RE: kids: parent of 8 year old needs help!

Former Member — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:29:02 GMT

If she is having fun and not at risk of injury, relax. If she is at risk, withdraw from the team and/or complain to the head coach. If she is not having as much fun as in the other program, consider withdrawing to the other program. It's a judgment call, but I do not think her future as an Olympian or college scholarship athlete will depend on getting serious (as if that is a concept that makes any sense for an 8 year old) at this age. She may be that good, but talent will tell, and burning out her joy in the sport might be the one thing that will surely mess that up. If you think she would enjoy additional technique work away from the team, consider hiring an experienced coach for one on one, or (with some trepidation) try to bone up yourself. Querry, will you know more about coaching that hew newbie coach? Will any conflicting direction you give her cause a problem with her current coach?

RE: kids: parent of 8 year old needs help!

dorothyrde — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:53:05 GMT

Ask your daughter which program is more fun, and take her lead. Or shop around. A lot of places have more than one competitive team. Maybe there is one that has better coaches and more suited to what you and your daughter wants. There are also people who give one on one, or one and two private lessons, and if they are good, they can really help a young swimmer with technique. Getting DQ'd will not be the end of the world either. I remember my son struggling with learning the breastroke pull out. He just could not figure it out. At a little dual meet, he did it backwards, kicked first, then pull down, and the meet ref very patiently explained what he did wrong. He was bummed because he had won the event, but then he told me he finally understood how to do it right.