Freestyle Swimming Stroke

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Fri, 16 Sep 2005 15:41:34 GMT

Originally posted by free142 The narrow frontal profile presented by fish allows them to efficiently cut through water, however the water presenting the resistance doesn't care what orientation the object passing through it has, for example flat fish also present a low drag shape to the water, Rotating all the way over on to your side to achieve a low drag configuration is one of the worst mismomers of TI swimming. Rotation is only necessary for proper positioning of arms for propulsion and recovery. Human swimmers can achieve low drag in the horizontal position by making sure they keep flat, keep the kick amplitude small and don't let their hips sway from side to side. Not quite applicable. The orientation doesn't matter IF you are completely submerged, as are fish. If you are not completely submerged, the surface tension of the water, the various drag components, and the change of laminar to turbulent flow come into play and will cause a larger cross-section relative to the horizontal plane of the water to have a physical penalty. -LBJ

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Fri, 16 Sep 2005 14:43:20 GMT

I guess sharks would be faster if they swam on their sides. Hope they don't figure that out (although they've had 200 million years to do so).

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Fri, 16 Sep 2005 13:08:27 GMT

"Most fish are longest in their front-to-back dimension and narrowest in their side-to-side dimension. The only way humans can achieve the same thing is to swim on their sides." The narrow frontal profile presented by fish allows them to efficiently cut through water, however the water presenting the resistance doesn't care what orientation the object passing through it has, for example flat fish also present a low drag shape to the water, Rotating all the way over on to your side to achieve a low drag configuration is one of the worst mismomers of TI swimming. Rotation is only necessary for proper positioning of arms for propulsion and recovery. Human swimmers can achieve low drag in the horizontal position by making sure they keep flat, keep the kick amplitude small and don't let their hips sway from side to side.

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:17:54 GMT

Originally posted by dead fish But as a form of true training it has never been shown that what you do at slow purposeful effort has any cross over to improved fast performance. This is not only true in swimming but every other sport. Grasshopper - Here is a quick way to convince yourself that this is wrong: Pick a fight with a Tai Chi master. You will have a lot of time during your recovery to re-examine the "slow doesn't translate to fast performance" idea. Also, it is NOT true in all sports. The best racewalking coaches teach kids in exactly this way. The Russians have done it that way for decades. In both cases, I speak from experience. -LBJ

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Fri, 16 Sep 2005 11:42:13 GMT

Originally posted by dead fish The other portion of this discussion was “drills” which TI is very big on. For learning “gross movements” drills are fine. But as a form of true training it has never been shown that what you do at slow purposeful effort has any cross over to improved fast performance. This is not only true in swimming but every other sport. The only way to master technique is focus on technique while swimming at race or near race pace effort. Drills are not the answer. The reason TI uses drills is because most swimmers have bad habits that they have been practicing for so long that they do them without even thinking about it. When you practice a movement over and over and over again, it finally becomes such a deeply engrained habit that it is virtually impossible to get conscious control over it and change what you are doing. If the habit is a good one, then of course there is no reason to change it. But the problem is that bad habits can get as deeply engrained as good ones. Drills provide a way to break out of those bad habits because drills are far enough removed from regular swimming that our minds don't "realize" we are swimming and invoke all of the deeply engrained habits we have been practicing over the years. As a result, we can use drills to engrain new swimming habits which can then be incorporated into our swimming strokes. You are correct that goal of training should be to swim with perfect technique at race pace. But you are not likely to achieve this by swimming at race pace while trying to perfect your technique. Musicians are perpetually faced with a similar problem: How do you learn to play a fast piece of music correctly? I've never met a musician who seriously believed that you can do this by playing the piece at concert pace while trying to get the notes right. Instead, the procedure is always to: - Slow it down to a speed where you can play it correctly. - Gradually speed things up, while still playing it correctly, until you reach the speed at which it is supposed to be played. This same principle applies to learning any highly skilled activity that must be executed quickly. Bob

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Fri, 16 Sep 2005 11:07:37 GMT

Originally posted by dead fish As for T.I. great marketing! Fish do not swim on their side and neither should you! Most fish are longest in their front-to-back dimension and narrowest in their side-to-side dimension. The only way humans can achieve the same thing is to swim on their sides. Bob

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Fri, 16 Sep 2005 05:34:31 GMT

Hey Guv something fishy here. Have you ever watched a spin fish swimming they really roll.

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Fri, 16 Sep 2005 05:01:00 GMT

I think it's just a matter if visual imagery to use the shape of a fish for explaining the roll of freestyle. Fish don't use the same type of propulsion as humans (arm extended in front and pull back) so it's a weak analogy to use fish. When I have a full roll, then my whole shoulder and part of my back are raised out of the water, reducing the surface area of drag. But it seems to me even that is not the most important reason for the roll. The roll gets me the longest and strongest pull I can get. Simple as that.

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Thu, 15 Sep 2005 07:54:25 GMT

Originally posted by dead fish Due to drag force not lift force. Most likely at slower speeds lift has more effect on propulsion and at faster speeds it is drag forces. Sculling vs. swimming... The only way to master technique is focus on technique while swimming at race or near race pace effort. Drills are not the answer. Now what about "axiel flows" and "generating and splicing vortices?" Is there some kind of towing product or harness to give swimmers this swimming fast feel?

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Thu, 15 Sep 2005 07:28:35 GMT

For learning to swim and basics drills are ok. Sometimes. But they will never get you to swim faster. You have got to train fast to swim fast. Personally I think the approach of programs heavily focused on drills is in response to swimmers who don't really want to work at the required intensity. There are no short cuts and the idea of swimming slow to go fast is just nuts.

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Thu, 15 Sep 2005 07:05:16 GMT

Actually if you time Thropes stroke and speed of his hand during recovery you will find I'm correct. You also see the same stroke style in many tall males, even as far back as Jim Montgomery. In one of Docs last talks he stated that what he thought he was seeing in the water wasn't quite correct. The “s” pattern happens due to the position of the hand in relation to the mid line. Since the body has some rotation the distance the hand is from the midline changes. At the entry the rotation is at it’s max so the hand appears to be close to the midline. As the opposite arm recovers the body is at it’s flattest and the hand appears to be farther away from the midline. In an ideal stroke the hand would stay in the same place and the body moves past the hand, just like when you get out of the pool by pushing on the deck, your hand doesn’t move your body but your does. Due to drag force not lift force. Most likely at slower speeds lift has more effect on propulsion and at faster speeds it is drag forces. Sculling vs. swimming. The other portion of this discussion was “drills” which TI is very big on. For learning “gross movements” drills are fine. But as a form of true training it has never been shown that what you do at slow purposeful effort has any cross over to improved fast performance. This is not only true in swimming but every other sport. The only way to master technique is focus on technique while swimming at race or near race pace effort. Drills are not the answer.

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Thu, 15 Sep 2005 06:37:19 GMT

"Remeber the hand pulling actually travels very little distance during the stroke. If it travels too far,it is slipping and losing speed...... photoed swimmers with a strode light to record hand speed and pull direction (S-curve or straight back)." You know, just standing in the shallow end of the pool and stroking water straight back with our hands, you can feel the pressure initially, but as the water starts to move back with your hands, there is hardly any pressure. But as I slice the hand sideways, I can maintain that pressure a little longer till the hand comes out of the water. Perhaps with the curving stroke, the hands automatically find still water to push on, and with the accelerated straight back stroke, the inert water is actually surprised and provides the necessary temporary fulcrum to propel ahead? clyde

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Wed, 14 Sep 2005 13:43:26 GMT

Originally posted by Johnathon I have been endeavouring to improve my freestyle stroke for some time and am now confused. I am hoping someone may have some advice.... I understand there are different techniques and suspect it is a matter of identifying what works best for the individual. I would be interested in other swimmers views and which technique they prefer.... Sounds like you are on the right track to me. Endeavor, and understanding of differences, will take you a long way. I agree with the bit about feeling the water, that is my main approach. Find the path of least/most resistance (see my web). The best article I've seen on front quadrant swimming is posted in the USMS technique section: Swimming in Circles , by Coach Emmett Hines. The "Strokes" category at Coach Hines' site also includes articles on stroke count, etc. I discovered recently that I've been doing front quadrant swimming in free long before I even knew what it was. Thoughts on the Crawl Stroke, by Marshall Adams is somewhat lengthy (much of which is too technical for me), but it includes a breakdown of Ian Thorp's technique. The single most fascinating nugget from this article for me is how long (1/3 of his total stroke cycle) that Ian takes to position his arm for the pull. This illustrates the slight pause in the front end of the stroke referred to earlier in this thread. I tend to do a lot of slowed down practice so that I can concentrate more on technique. Swimming Faster by Swimming Slowly, By Terry Laughlin illustrates this concept pretty well. My recovery is smooth and relaxed, with a very clean entry (i.e. little or no splash). It amazes me how many swimmers (especially guys) "attack" the water on entry. I can see this as a necessity when doing a sprint, but these people are swimming 100's of yards at a time (apparently training for triathlons). The thrash & splash technique I see a lot of folks using seems like a total waste of energy to me, especially on long distances. One exercise I occasionally practice is this: As I finish my pull I brush my thumb against my thigh. I try to see how far down I can touch while still maintaining proper (straight) spinal alignment. By this time my front arm is fully extended, with the leading shoulder thrust forward, and the trailing shoulder stretched back. I can get a good stretch from this leading arm all down my side (including lats and ribcage, much like the positioning for the catch in Butterfly). The key is to not over compensate and get the spine out of alignment, otherwise you start to wiggle and begin to loose your streamlining. I hear a lot of talk these days about "high elbows" on the recovery. While this is great, I watch folks sometimes and it seems they are missing the point and not lengthening their stroke. If you start your recovery by exiting the water elbow first you can't help be get the desired high elbow effect. By finishing your stroke completely, the elbow 1st recovery technique pretty much comes naturally. The elbow 1st recovery provides a really clean exit from the water. The arm is already against the side of the body, so there is less resistance to lift it. Combine this action with a smooth, relaxed entry and you get a "no splash" stroke. Swimmers who use this technique are going a LOT faster than they look to be going. I tend to enter the water with just a slight bend in the elbow (this picture on my web is a good illustration). I finish straightening the arm under the water as I begin the stretch, and the positioning of my shoulders, prior to the recovery (and the catch). If you look carefully at this image you will note that my pull arm is about 45º from the surface of the water and still in front of me (i.e. "front quadrant swimming"). Also, I'm motoring along pretty well here (at least for me anyway), without making big waves. For my entry I still occasionally use this idea: Imagine a hoop directly in front of you as a target. Try to put your arm through the hoop as your arm enters the water. Vary the size of the hoop, its distance from you, and its depth, until you find a location that is right for you. This suggestion given to me back in the early 70's (when I was in my early teens) by a school chum who was on a local team. I've copied most of this post to a new "Free" section on my web. Check it out if you want to see more images.

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Wed, 14 Sep 2005 09:25:44 GMT

Originally posted by dead fish The main reason you see a slight catch up stroke with some elite swimmers is due to the length of the swimmers arms. The longer the arm the greater distance it has to travel. Thorpe for example takes about 1.4 seconds to complete the under water portion of his stroke. His recovery is about 6ths of a second, moving through air is much easier than water. He actually has to wait to finish his stroke. So the taller swimmers frequently have a slight pause in the stroke, a longer arm takes longer to complete the stroke. You rarely see the pause in elite level women. The catch up stroke is a good drill. But really should only be used as a true racing technique for a 6’ft 7’’ knuckle dragger, like Evil Mr. Smith. Most mere mortals should attempt to eliminate the pause, thus avoiding de-acceleration in the stroke. The constant pressure on the water as explained by the Good Mr. Smith is for most swimmers the best advice. As for T.I. great marketing! Fish do not swim on their side and neither should you! I don't think that your explanation for Thorpe's delay is correct, at least from what I've heard him & his coach say. The delay has more to do with his hand dropping down directly after the catch so that the hand and forearm are travelling together at the same basic speed and to strecth out the body. Remeber the hand pulling actually travels very little distance during the stroke. If it travels too far,it is slipping and losing speed. It also has so much to do wiht the efficiency of Thorpe's stroke technique. Efficiency can be learned very well with catch up drills and single arm-stroke drills. The recovery hand has a greater distance to travel if you slow down considerably. But because of rotation, it is moving with the body. There is a lot of debate about measuring hand speed. I know Councilman and some other coaches, at one, photoed swimmers with a strode light to record hand speed and pull direction (S-curve or straight back). This is the entire argument between TI & Swimming Fastest.

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Wed, 14 Sep 2005 06:29:05 GMT

Thank you all for the wealth of information you have brought to this topic. You have given me a lot to think about. Bob - I will re-read Total Immersion to better understand their approach to the freestyle stroke. Dead Fish - I will also keep your comments about the marketing aspect of T.I. Clyde - thanks for your suggestions about keeping pressure on the stroking hand and Ande thanks for your comments on elite swimmers. John & Craig thank you for your ideas on the different stroke concepts for distance and speed swimming as well as considering the genetics of the individual. I will keep going with my swimming. Practise makes perfect. Regards - Johnathon

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:46:33 GMT

"Also, Jonathon, remember that there are as many different explanations of swimming as there are at least the number of coaches." I couldn't agree with you more. Coaching swimming... as with many sports.... has an "art" factor or shall we call it an "intuition" or "subjective" factor. We see this a lot in taper philosophies and a coach's ability to "read" people during taper and make strategic decision on rest and recovery. Everyone is different physically. When you get to the most elite level, subtle refinements and changes in stroke mechanics between competitors are usually, in my opinion, not as important. It's the core of talent (i.e. genetics) combined with mental toughness and background training that really make the difference....... not the smaller differences in stroke techique. John Smith

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:25:02 GMT

Originally posted by TheGoodSmith Certainly it's important to have a long stroke and try to stretch out the front hand entry... i.e "catch". This has been taught for 30 years or more and is really not an innovative techique. After all, the longer and thinner the vessel, the faster the vessel. Ian Thorpe has a good example of this quasi "catch up" style, and it serves him very well for middle distance events. However, do note that during fast sprints this philosophy can lead to a slower turnover than desired. There is a point where one must sacrafice a portion of the front of the stroke for a more rapid turnover. Being able to maintain the catch and turn up the revolutions at the same time is the trick. Note, Evil Paul Smith's 50yd free record from Indy in the 40-44 age group (20.9). He worked on changing to a somewhat faster turnover that year and he sacraficed a portion of his huge catch. Its hard to find the inbetween point when you turn up the volume. John Smith Brilliant! Also, from a few entries above, have you read Swimming into the 21st Century. A really good look at the kinesthesia of swimming. Also, Jonathon, remember that there are as many different explainations of swimming as there are at least the number of coaches.

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Tue, 13 Sep 2005 07:58:13 GMT

The main reason you see a slight catch up stroke with some elite swimmers is due to the length of the swimmers arms. The longer the arm the greater distance it has to travel. Thorpe for example takes about 1.4 seconds to complete the under water portion of his stroke. His recovery is about 6ths of a second, moving through air is much easier than water. He actually has to wait to finish his stroke. So the taller swimmers frequently have a slight pause in the stroke, a longer arm takes longer to complete the stroke. You rarely see the pause in elite level women. The catch up stroke is a good drill. But really should only be used as a true racing technique for a 6’ft 7’’ knuckle dragger, like Evil Mr. Smith. Most mere mortals should attempt to eliminate the pause, thus avoiding de-acceleration in the stroke. The constant pressure on the water as explained by the Good Mr. Smith is for most swimmers the best advice. As for T.I. great marketing! Fish do not swim on their side and neither should you!

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Tue, 13 Sep 2005 07:43:21 GMT

Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com Brilliant! Also, from a few entries above, have you read Swimming into the 21st Century. A really good look at the kinesthesia of swimming. Thank you, just put in my order to Amazon for the book plus the new book BREAKTHROUGH SWIMMING. clyde

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Tue, 13 Sep 2005 06:00:32 GMT

Originally posted by TheGoodSmith "Also, Jonathon, remember that there are as many different explanations of swimming as there are at least the number of coaches." I couldn't agree with you more. Coaching swimming... as with many sports.... has an "art" factor or shall we call it an "intuition" or "subjective" factor. We see this a lot in taper philosophies and a coach's ability to "read" people during taper and make strategic decision on rest and recovery. Everyone is different physically. When you get to the most elite level, subtle refinements and changes in stroke mechanics between competitors are usually, in my opinion, not as important. It's the core of talent (i.e. genetics) combined with mental toughness and background training that really make the difference....... not the smaller differences in stroke techique. John Smith John, How is that we agree on almost everything? I am tall & thin. I was really a runner who could swim pretty well. I had several unimportant coaches when I was a kid. I got a good coach after I was out of college & my swimming really. that was when I really began to improved and understand swimming. I still put in a lot of yards daily and it has mad me tough and actually helped my stroke.

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:28:14 GMT

Certainly it's important to have a long stroke and try to stretch out the front hand entry... i.e "catch". This has been taught for 30 years or more and is really not an innovative techique. After all, the longer and thinner the vessel, the faster the vessel. Ian Thorpe has a good example of this quasi "catch up" style, and it serves him very well for middle distance events. However, do note that during fast sprints this philosophy can lead to a slower turnover than desired. There is a point where one must sacrafice a portion of the front of the stroke for a more rapid turnover. Being able to maintain the catch and turn up the revolutions at the same time is the trick. Note, Evil Paul Smith's 50yd free record from Indy in the 40-44 age group (20.9). He worked on changing to a somewhat faster turnover that year and he sacraficed a portion of his huge catch. Its hard to find the inbetween point when you turn up the volume. John Smith

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:18:47 GMT

Thorpe did not do too badly in the 100 in Athens (Bronze medal) His 'middle distance catchup' seemed to serve him well there too. My guess is that he probably got more satisfaction with that performance than out of winning the 200 or 400. Especially when people said he would never be fast with his stroke. Wish I could do a 'slow' 48-something 100m , like his..... Ian (no relation to Good or Evil).

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

ande — Mon, 12 Sep 2005 09:56:33 GMT

many elite swimmers have a slight pause on the front ent of their strokes, they place their hand/arm in the water fully extend begin their pull the pause cleans the air bubbles off the swimmers hand and arm ande

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Sun, 11 Sep 2005 09:08:43 GMT

Unfortunately, too much time is focused on the kinesiology of swimming instead of the kinesthesia of swimming. For me, the best thing I found was to try and always maintain constant pressure on the stroking hand, for if there isn't pressure, you're moving water backwards and you're not moving forwards. Practice practice and practice developing this "feel" for the water, which I call the "sweetspot" of swimming. Discover this "sweetspot" and you got it made. clyde

RE: Freestyle Swimming Stroke

Former Member — Fri, 09 Sep 2005 16:23:17 GMT

Originally posted by Johnathon I read Terry Laughlin's total immersion aiming to increase stroke length by fully extending the leading arm and practising front quandrant swimming by only commencing the catch and pull when the other arm "caught up" to the leading arm. Total Immersion teaches that your leading arm should begin to drop when your recovering hand reaches your ear. "Front Quadrant Swimming" simply means that you should always have one arm in the quadrant bounded by a vertical plane going through your shoulders and the surface of the water. What you are describing sounds like what is called a "catch up" stroke. Bob