Nationals Relays

RE: Nationals Relays

Paul Smith — Tue, 20 Sep 2005 06:35:49 GMT

Anything come up about this at the convention?

RE: Nationals Relays

Frank Thompson — Tue, 13 Sep 2005 05:14:34 GMT

Tomorrow the USAS Convention starts. They have computers there and if I can get on one I will report back on some of the items discussed here. The International Committee should be interesting and hopefully some of the points brought up here will be discussed.

RE: Nationals Relays

michaelmoore — Mon, 05 Sep 2005 12:52:48 GMT

To me when we host a "world" championship its just that and would be great to see if country vs. country. Otherwise I would suggest we call it the world "club" chmapionships, or world masters swimming festival. Granted their wold be lots of challenges as you've brought up but still think its fun to consider. Why do you have to have a world championships that pits country against country? The original Olympics of the modern era had competitors of different countrys on the same team. While we are the host country for the XI FINA World Masters Championships, I am chairman of the Organizing Committee. It is the FINA Masters Committee that is the management group that runs the championships. If you have ideas about how to change the championships that happen every two years, you should contact Nancy Ridout who is a member of the FINA Masters Committee, it will be the committee or the FINA Congress that makes decisions about the naming of the championships. On a side note, so you really think they are going to change the name from the World Championships to the World Masters fesitval? (Personally, I dont think that will happen and to think otherwise would be just kidding yourself.) Lastly I do think that an oppuruntiy exists to more closely align oursleves with USS for those of us who come from a competition based background; things like QTs, seeding by time vs age, requiring us citenship fo US national records (and add open records) , etc. etc. To get changes like changes in QT, seeding by time vs age and requiring citizenship for US national records are items that will require changes in the US Masters Swimming Rule book. Those changes can only be made by the USMS House of Delegates. You should get your LMSC to propose changes (or the Championship Committee could also make proposals for the change.) regards michael

RE: Nationals Relays

Paul Smith — Mon, 05 Sep 2005 09:10:05 GMT

Michael, I'm not necessarilly advocating any of these changes, just bringing them up fo discussion. Changing the name of the wrold champs to me would be stupid, I was using it as an example of how different masters interpretation of "world" is than USS.....as it exists now it is a club championship. I would love for Nancy to address some of these points that are being brought up by various folks in this forum. Not everyone can attend the convention, this would be a way to reach a ton of people. Jerry, there are lots of possible scenarios....you don't have to hold a "trials" you could pick teams of our us nationals results. Guys (gals).....just bcause we have "always" done something a certain way doesn't mean it can be done differently or better! "Challenge the domiant paradigm" (a favorite bumper sticker).

RE: Nationals Relays

Paul Smith — Sun, 04 Sep 2005 09:30:59 GMT

Michael, Just to be clear, I'm not in any way suggesting that you ry to incorporate any of the things we've been discussing by next year but rather looking long term. Some time back I think when we we're discussing NQT's several folks took issue with the "semantics" of a national championhisp vs. calling it a "festival". I'm completely OK with a inclusive....open....festival for all swimmers in USMS but do see that we could up the anty a bit for national and world designated meets. To me when we host a "world" championship its just that and would be great to see if country vs. country. Otherwise I would suggest we call it the world "club" chmapionships, or world masters swimming festival. Granted their wold be lots of challenges as you've brought up but still think its fun to consider. Lastly I do think that an oppuruntiy exists to more closely align oursleves with USS for those of us who come from a competition based background; things like QTs, seeding by time vs age, requiring us citenship fo US national records (and add open records) , etc. etc. With limited resources for swimming the more we can "pool" them to help achieve growth, expansion of pools, etc. the better in my opinion.

RE: Nationals Relays

mattson — Sun, 04 Sep 2005 07:58:40 GMT

championship : n. 3. A competition or series of competitions held to determine a winner We call it the National championship, that seems to be a fair description. A patch is given to the first place finishers, labeling them as a National Champion (or so I'm told :( :) ). Or you can think of it as a competition that involves the whole nation. There may not be an efficient way to swim the 800 and the 1500, just the most efficient way that we can get. (Maybe in a 10 lane pool, keep two lanes off to the side for the extra distance events. Let them swim long distance while the rest of the meet is going on. Just mind the waves when people dive in!)

RE: Nationals Relays

Former Member — Sat, 03 Sep 2005 16:56:40 GMT

Michael Question for FINA Masters Committee. Can a Masters competitor be affiliated with more than one Member federation at one time and if so, under what circumstances?

RE: Nationals Relays

michaelmoore — Sat, 03 Sep 2005 12:30:14 GMT

Paul: I am not sure where you want to go with this. But let me first respond to a couple of things that you said. I have no idea how most countries Masters club system works. I do not know if all the Masters for some countries belong so the same club (like CMS) or if there are many clubs with in a country. When I was in Riccione, it looked like Great Britain had many clubs - they had different clubs had different sweat suits. I also saw some countries like Peru, Brazil and Chile all wearing the same model sweat suit. I only offer that as there may be only one club in those countries. If you wanted to have international competition by country for Masters how would that be run? each country sends a national team? or that you only have national relays teams? or do you have a national relay team and club relay teams. If you did that who would choose the national team? What about those who always swam with a club and would want to continue to swim for that club? The XI FINA World Masters Championships is the first championships in a long time that has had more than mixed relays. Why don't we see how it goes before making other plans. (I am sure that CMS can field a host of very fast relays teams- and being chairman of Pacific I can only dream of putting together relays teams made of Pacific Masters Swimmers - I think it would be a dream team - but nightmare putting it together.). michael

RE: Nationals Relays

Karen Duggan — Sat, 03 Sep 2005 10:01:50 GMT

Paul (I think!), I wasn't trying to be pissy or anything... I do understand all of what you're saying and do agree on some points you make. I just wish it was really easy for USMS to come up with some hard and fast rules, regulations, whatever you want to call 'em. Apparently, our language gets in the way time and time again. It seems USMS, and our own local Pacific Masters, paints itself into corners with too many rules, rules not worded correctly, etc. It's really quite frustrating. For example(s), we can't even figure out an efficient way for people to swim the 800 AND the 1500! We call our end of the season meet a "championship" when it's far from it. There are no qualifying times, etc. While I do agree that masters should include as many as possible- I think some definitions need defining. This relay issue is just one of many things that needs to be defined. Again, I certainly did not mean to come across "ickily" :)

RE: Nationals Relays

Paul Smith — Sat, 03 Sep 2005 09:24:33 GMT

I've had quite a number of conversatons about countries swimming against countries with USMS swimmers since the US was awarded the Worlds as well as some folks in Australia when we went to their Nationals this past March. In general almost everyone I've spoken with did not know that FINA rules do not allow one to swim for thir respctive country and have to compete for their clubs. Also, almost 100% felt that a competition between countires at an international meet such as worlds made a lot of sense and would elevate the level of competition as well as media interest. So I guess the bottom line is wether USMS and our general membership thinks this would be worth pursuing with FINA long term?

RE: Nationals Relays

michaelmoore — Sat, 03 Sep 2005 03:44:13 GMT

There are people now who are affiliated with different federations. They meet the qualifications for joining both federations. I believe some federations require residency or citizenship. Some like ours, do not require either. From an operational point of view, all the LOC is going to look for is a Master's card from a FINA federation. But I will ask. michael

RE: Nationals Relays

michaelmoore — Sat, 03 Sep 2005 01:47:15 GMT

I am not sure where this thread is going but here is my spin on the General Rules as it applies to the XI FINA World Masters Championships. Let me comment on hornhead's spin: GR 2.2 is lacking in clarity as it only refers to clubs, but since clubs are a collection of individuals it should follow that individuals shall not be admitted by a Member while simultaneously being affiliated to another Member. In other words you have to give up your affiliation with one Member in order to become affiliated with another. Multiple affiliation is not permitted. The Rule says "A Member shall not admit to its membership any club affiliated to another member." A member is a federation such as US Aquatic Sports. A club is a normal club, so what it says is that USMS (a member of USAS) shall not admit a club that is a member of Canadian Swimming. There IS NO EXTENSION. If it is not in the rules it does not apply. You do not have to give up your affiliation with one Federation to become affiliated with another. Clubs would, but individuals do not. GR 2.3 is pretty clear. You have to actually live/reside in the country in order to be affiliated to the Member or apply to FINA under GR 2.7 for change of affiliation. The rule says A competitor of one Member joining a club of another Member and participating in the compeitions of the latter shall be regarded as coming with in the jurisdiction of the latter So a competitor who is member of the Swiss Federation joins a club of the US Federation. At that point the competitor is under the jurisdiction of the US federation. The rule says nother about actually live/reside in the country in order to be affiliated. Another example, you are a member of USMS and join the Peace Corps. You are in Lesotho and in order to swim in their meets you have to be a member of the Lesotho Swimming Association. When you swim in Masaru you are under the rules of the Lesotho Swimming Association, when the swimmer returns to the United States, the swimmer is under the rules of USMS if the competitor is swimming for a USMS club. The competitor could also swim for the Lesotho club. GR 7 only applies to swimmers with sports nationalities, it does not apply to Masters swimmers. Please review MGR 3 Individual entries shall only be accepted from persons represnting clubs. No swimmer or team my be disignated as representing a country or Federation. That is my view, but if anyone has specific questions, I will be meeting with the FINA Masters Committee in November to discuss many things affecting the World Championships. Also if you think that this is incorrect, and want to file an protest a person belonging to dual federations at the World Championships, you have also include the equalivant of 100 Swiss Francs (about $81.00) with your protest. The matter would be decided by the FINA Masters Committee. michael moore, president Local Organizing Committee XI FINA World Master Championships Stanford, California

RE: Nationals Relays

Former Member — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:11:48 GMT

FINA General Rules apply to ALL aquatic disciplines under FINA jursidiction, including Masters and should be followed a closely as posssible. Here is my spin on the General Rules as they relate to International Relations ( ie: foreign swimmers ) www.fina.org/.../rules_gr1.htm GR 2.1 elevates USMS Nationals to International status. An exception would be USMS Nationals competition held in yards. GR 2.2 is lacking in clarity as it only refers to clubs, but since clubs are a collection of individuals it should follow that individuals shall not be admitted by a Member while simultaneously being affiliated to another Member. In other words you have to give up your affiliation with one Member in order to become affiliated with another. Multiple affiliation is not permitted. GR 2.3 is pretty clear. You have to actually live/reside in the country in order to be affiliated to the Member or apply to FINA under GR 2.7 for change of affiliation. GR 2.4 is a non issued since in USMS we do not select or field a National Team, but if we did all the General Rules would come into play but we can't because of Master General Rule MGR 3. GR 2.5 is also a non issue as it follows GR 2.4. GR 2.6 is also a non issue as it follows GR 2.4. GR 2.7 stipulates that you must apply to FINA and receive approval in order to change affiliation if such change does not fall within the parameters set out in the foregoing General Rules.

RE: Nationals Relays

Frank Thompson — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 05:35:43 GMT

Mr. Goodsmith: Go over to the FINA website at www.fina.org and link to the rules. You might find your answer there. Last week the site was down and now its up. There is a big difference between the Masters Swimming rules and the Swimming rules and appears to be a lot of inconstancy, especially with the eligibility of swimmers from federations and rules of representations and citizenship.

RE: Nationals Relays

Former Member — Thu, 01 Sep 2005 16:51:34 GMT

Then why do they bother listing the country of origin next to the name of the person owning each world record ? John Smith

RE: Nationals Relays

michaelmoore — Thu, 01 Sep 2005 01:17:27 GMT

Few of us are familar with the inner workings of FINA so can you explain to me why they would not to compete as "countries" vs. "clubs"? I dont know. I would guess that Masters has somewhat established itself before FINA came on the scene. Masters started about 1970 and the first FINA World Masters Championships was about 1984, so maybe they just went with the established order. Masters is supposed to be about fun, fitness and competition, not about international competition between federations. If it was about competition between federations then you would have most likely have a fewer competitors. How would one qualify for a federation team? Could be a problem. If they left it the current way, then have everyone eligible for a relay team, who is going to do the selection? I have seen Pacific Masters Coaches pulling their hair out making up relays teams, could you imagine trying to put together a team when you have 2000 swimmers to select from to put together dozens of teams - think age groups, gender and strokes and all the permutations to select a fast team. Anyway just a guess. michael

RE: Nationals Relays

Paul Smith — Wed, 31 Aug 2005 12:06:10 GMT

Michael, Few of us are familar with the inner workings of FINA so can you explain to me why they would not to compete as "countries" vs. "clubs"? Seems like a slam dunk to me, but then again I did work for a Fench company for 4 years so nothing should surprise me! By the way......this has nothing at all to do with "excellant" swimmers or any hint of the "E" (elitism) word. We would like to see anyone from the US swimming in an international meet be ble to swim for their country.

RE: Nationals Relays

Nancy Ridout — Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:29:26 GMT

This thread started out with the assumption that small teams couldn't field relays and that the swimmers felt left out. As the thread progressed, places, points, and medals became the focus. I belong to what I'd call a small team (not defined here) and we field a relay or 2 at Nationals. We do it for pride and not for points or medals. We're small but we're proud to represent our team in the total scheme of things. If the small team is represented by fewer than 4 swimmers, that is one way to define a small team but perhaps pooling swimmers and lengthening the meet by several heats is not in the best interests of everyone. Some people would rather have some time to rest or enjoy a new area and don't mind not being on a relay taking place at 5 or 6 or 7pm. A relay represents a "team", as someone else has noted, and not just as another opportunity to swim a 50. One thing that does bother me though, is that swimmers able to compete on relays do have an additional opportunity to swim a better 50 or set a record than someone who does not have that option. Some people actually don't swim the event because they can get a time by leading off on a relay. My two cents. Nancy

RE: Nationals Relays

michaelmoore — Wed, 31 Aug 2005 09:50:13 GMT

.it's Worlds so we shouldn't have to "switch" teams to represent our country! Someone please explain that to FINA! If you are going to World Masters Championships, you swim for a team (and however your federation defines team - for some countries I would imagine there is just one team; kind of like swimming in Arizona). You cannot swim unattached. Now for excellent swimmers like the Smith Bros to swim in the World Championships or Olympics, you swim for your federation, so you are no longer swimming for your team. In either case you dont have to change teams. I should also point out that FINA Rules are decided by the FINA Congress. Every country could send two representatives to the Congress and vote on the changes. Most of the work for changing the rules are made by the different technical commttees. Each committee has about 12 members; each member is from a different country. They propose the rule changes, although each federation could submit a rules change. michael

RE: Nationals Relays

Karen Duggan — Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:41:02 GMT

I think if you swim a race, relay or individual, it should count, for whatever records, medals, points, etc. Paul, you assume that Jim (and me for that matter) agree that EVERYONE recruits these people for old home week, get them involved, etc. That is clearly NOT the case a lot of the time. I voted no awhile ago- my reasons go back to the whole superteam vs. club idea (small size team or otherwise). On the one hand I think, "Too bad they don't have enough for a relay, they shouldn't be able to swim. They at least have individual events," and on the other hand I wonder, "How would this meet be different (the outcome) if THAT relay wasn't put together?" I'm coming to the conclusion that, really, in the big scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. You don't see people actively protesting, withdrawing from meets... while it's fun to talk about, I don't think it's a big deal in the end. Someone mentioned USMS being inclusive, that's an important point. The more people that swim the better, it's about fun and competition and until the rules are to everyone's liking... that's not likely to happen. Sorry if I'm rambling I'm going to bed- very sle :p

RE: Nationals Relays

Paul Smith — Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:01:16 GMT

Karen......I don't like to deal in any "absolutes" (other than John's lack of willingness to chase down the 50 free LCM WR!) and I never ""assumed" anything but rather asked for consideration of a different point and clarification. My postion was Jim's post did not touch on the other and what I beleive to be far more popular reason that people join teams outside their regions. If you don't agree with something thats fine, but I'd prefer to know more details as to why and if its based on facts? If that vast majority of people "jumping ship" are actually doing so to be with friends vs. to break records and win championships would you still be against it? If it actually increases participation and gets people back into swmming (as Johns 11-12 year old teamates did) would you be against it?

RE: Nationals Relays

Former Member — Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:18:38 GMT

Jim, You are correct. Finding a relay and group of old friends to swim with on a relay gives purpose to working out for me. I probably wouldn't swim otherwise. I look forward to seeing old faces and drinking beers with them at Masters Nationals each year. But I kind of like the term "Hussy".... it fits me well.... :-) It's better than what Paul calls me. John Smith

RE: Nationals Relays

Former Member — Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:43:57 GMT

Jim, I was (and to some degree still am) a team hussy. I started back swimming masters 5 years ago after a long break and didn't have a team to workout with due to conflicting work schedules and pool times. While living in Atlanta I jumped from Dallas Aquatic Masters at one nationals to Team TYR at another nationals and Rocky Mtn masters at the next nationals. Big deal.... who cares...... seriously...... I did it to swim my old friends.... Bobby Patten at DAMM, Chris Cavanaugh and Geoff Gaberino at Team TYR and evil Paul with Rocky Mtn. masters. I work out by myself most of the time still today. If there is a chance to swim with Rich Saeger, Paul and Rowdy on another relay team for Worlds next year ...... I'd probably switch teams again and come back to Rocky Mtn. the next season. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. Otherwise, I would be swimming unattached as I don't workout with any teams. John Smith

RE: Nationals Relays

Former Member — Tue, 30 Aug 2005 05:29:08 GMT

Personally, I don't think bending rules so someone would get a medal is a good idea, or a fair one. For one, it lowers the value of the medal. Heck, may as well just make it a souvenir and let people buy one if they couldn't get one in competition. Or, bending the rules so you could get a medal just might take the medal away from someone else who isn't complaining about playing by the rules. You know, it takes time and effort to grow a team, takes enthusiasam on the part of the coach and the teammates to get people interested in their team, in swim meets and into coming to swim at nationals. Getting a medal in a relay is a reflection of all of those efforts. It's not a mere random instance that certain clubs or teams have presentation in numbers, and others don't. Perhaps instead of asking to change the rules of competition or accusing more succesful teams of recruiting and elitism or what not, one ought to be asking how do I help grow my team and promote masters swimming im my area, so I have better representation next year.

RE: Nationals Relays

Jim Clemmons — Tue, 30 Aug 2005 04:29:28 GMT

John/Paul or Paul/John: Let's see if I've got this right. Paul agrees with me on this viewpoint. John agrees with me on this viewpoint. But John and Paul don't agree with each other on the viewpoint. Or at minimum, they're "throwing" things at each other. Hmmmm. What are we doing wrong here?