Citizenship/Residence & Records

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

michaelmoore — Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:53:19 GMT

A bunch of comments about what is being said here: A swimmer swims for a club FINA HANDBOOK MGR 3 Individual entries shall only be accepted from person representing clubs. No swimmer or team may be desinated as rerpresting a country or Federation. A swimmer could swim for clubs of different federations, unless there are federation rules against it. Sometimes joining two different federations is so that one can swim in local/national swim meets of other counties. Some countries will only let swimmers of their country compete. An invitation is a procedure so that a swimmer may get a visa. No club may issue an invitation, it can only be handled by that National office. You do not need an invitation to compete. " Especially with Worlds bringing about 10,000 people into town!" I dont think we will get that many; maybe 6000 swimmers 8500 over all. But I would like to be surprised. "This is a FINA sanctioned meet, so it's not like foreign swimmers will be able to break USMS records (unless they are USMS members, that is)." It is not a FINA sanctioned meet. It is a Pacific Masters Swimming sanctioned meet for United States Masters Swimming. (the main reason for sanctioning has to do with insurance). It is the XI FINA World Masters Championships. While one may set a USMS record, the organizing committee will fill out the proper paper work for whatever is needed for the swimmer, I do not think that the breaking of an USMS record will be announced, but that would be a decision of the FINA Masters Committee. I have asked the Committee to consider having meet records, but that will be up to the FINA Masters Committee and them maybe the FINA Bureau. USMS records are under the Rules section of the Rule Book. This is a legislation year, any rules change would require (1) a vote by the Rules Committee that this is an emergency (2) a vote of 90% of the House of Delegates that this rule should pass. As USMS rules say a USMS record can only be set by an USMS registered swimmer, this would mean that we could have world records set at a USMS sanctioned meet, but they would not be USMS records. (that would be the same for relays, as records are set by teams and to be a member of a USMS team, you must be a member of USMS). The last FINA Bureau meeting was in Montreal, the next one is in Shanghai in April. The FINA Masters Committee is meeting in Palo Alto in November, then will meet again in Palo Alto in August of 2006. There will be a FINA Masters Congress in Palo Alto or Stanford in August of 2006. michael

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

Frank Thompson — Fri, 26 Aug 2005 02:29:42 GMT

Thanks Michael for the thorough explanation. When I was on the FINA site I must have been reading the rules reguarding the other aquatic disciplines. Unfortunately I know where that is on there site but the FINA site is down for construction. From what you are providing and what Paul Smith said of his Austrialian experiences, its different for every country about the eligibility, registration, and invitation to compete. I always thought that FINA had a rule for the member federations to extend privileges to compete to any FINA member in good standing. Again, I might be confused with the other rules for the other aquatic disciplines. Its kinda of strange about the lack of consistency. Especially making someone register to swim even if they are a registered swimmer in good standing from another FINA member federation. And then excluding foreigners from competitions altogether. I wonder if there is any chance they will ever adopt the rules of the other aquatic disciplines. This sounds very exclusive.

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

Former Member — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:59:08 GMT

Yes, why don't we just pass out beer coupons for national records instead. John Smith

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

Former Member — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:11:37 GMT

Well if you have a National Record that a foreigner owns its not really an "American" record is it . Call it what it is. The best time done by someone in the country is either done by an American or by a foreigner, but a foreigner can not technically hold an "American" record as he is not an American citizen. Sounds like an easy solution to me. Have 3 instead of 2 distinctions as Paul indicated. - World records - US or American Records - US Open Record John Smith

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

aquageek — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:30:43 GMT

Originally posted by TheGoodSmith Yes, why don't we just pass out beer coupons for national records instead. I'll agree to this as long as we only serve quality American beer. Take that Cruise!

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

Frank Thompson — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:22:31 GMT

Mr Goodsmith: Are you or Paul thinking about putting a rules change thru? You and Paul have provided rationale in your posts for the delegates to consider a change. About the beer coupons, I would leave that up to the host of the National Championships and not implement that in the rules change.

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

aquageek — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:32:48 GMT

Originally posted by TheGoodSmith The best time done by someone in the country is either done by an American or by a foreigner, but a foreigner can not technically hold an "American" record as he is not an American citizen. We could always just reward a swimmer for outstanding results and not be so focused on the country of origin. Wait, we already do that. But, I guess some folks need more ribbons.

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

Frank Thompson — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:21:37 GMT

Paul: If you are really serious about this get a rules change proposal completed at once. I don't know if you are going to attend the convention like you did in 2003 in San Diego, and I know Mr. Goodsmith will probably not attend either. Get with your delegates from your LMSC. I remember you wanted to get a SCM National meet set up and you went to the convention in 2003 to get the delegates to approve this. Get Cindy Hawkinson to submit this for your LMSC if you are not going. Like I said in my prior post if you can convince USMS delegates having separate records and show HOW USMS would gain from this, than I am sure it has a chance to pass. I know the timeline has expired to get a rules change to Leo and his committee but if you and Mr. Goodsmith really fell passionate about this especially with the 2006 Masters World Swimming Championships coming up, NOW is the time to put in the proposal. You will probably have to introduce this in the rules committee meeting and see if the committee wants to take this on. Its worth a try.

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

aquageek — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 09:09:46 GMT

I'm trying to understand why USMS needs to follow the USS format. Who really cares? What's the big deal of having US records, world records, etc? Aren't we past that as USMS members?

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

Paul Smith — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:55:29 GMT

Simple solution...follow the USS model: - World Records - US Records - US Open Records - allow (encourage) foreign athletes to register with USMS but they could not hold US records or be on relays that break US records.

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

Former Member — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 07:36:58 GMT

If beer is being served in close proximity to the actual meet at Coral Springs, Florida, I am a DEFINITELY betting Mr. Patten again in the 500 free. John Smith

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

Former Member — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 05:53:26 GMT

Yup.

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

Former Member — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 05:37:44 GMT

Short Corse Nationals in 2006 will be in Coral Springs, FL. They serve beer on tap at the tennis center which is located 20 feet from the pool. I can request that they serve pale, opaque, somewhat tasteless beer.

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

knelson — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 05:34:47 GMT

Originally posted by TheGoodSmith Well if you have a National Record that a foreigner owns its not really an "American" record is it . Call it what it is. So, to me, it seems like the simplest change would be to strike any mention of "National" records and simply call them USMS records.

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

Former Member — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 05:03:13 GMT

If you only serve American beer you won't have to worry about any foreigners competing for the award. Geek has solved the dilemma (in his usual unintentional way).

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

Frank Thompson — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 04:19:38 GMT

Mr Goodsmith: In your last two posts, you do provide reasons for a change. Right now with the entry booklets and information that is out about the meet at Stanford, the earliest changes that could be made would be at the next World Championships in 2008 and I don't know where those will be held. This stuff is a lot more complex than the super team discussions. After reading what Mark Gill had to say, I forgot about Nancy Ridout and how as a FINA representative she could bring this up at the FINA meetings and see what the reactions are. They had meetings in Montreal last month and I don't know when the next ones are scheduled. My suggestion to you is to write up a proposal for changes and give it to your LMSC rerepresentative on the International Committee and that is Peggy Buchannan. See what the USMS International Committee feels about your proposed changes. In fact Mark Gill is on that committee and maybe he can bring it up and make some progress regarding this. Otherwise, if this is not done it will be forgotten. I think your points are valid except "we can kick some booty like no other country." That statement would have to be pulled. If you could get this on the agenda for the meeting that would be a start. By the way I am looking forward to that rules change proposal from your LMSC about the eligibility of the National Records at the USAS convention.

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

aquageek — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 01:52:06 GMT

Originally posted by Peter Cruise If you only serve American beer you won't have to worry about any foreigners competing for the award. Geek has solved the dilemma (in his usual unintentional way). You sure it was unintentional?

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

Former Member — Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:28:07 GMT

1 SDSM 'A' 2:07.30 2:05.90W 1) Van Baalen, Vinus 63 33.27 2) Andersen, Peter 62 1:07.98 (34.71) 3) Lautman, Scott M 53 1:36.69 (28.71) 4) Freshley, Mike R 64 2:05.90 (29.21)

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

Rob Copeland — Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:47:09 GMT

Originally posted by Frank Thompson I wonder if there will be massive recruiting going on before the meet at Stanford. Just think, you could contact the best masters swimmers in the world and break all of the available relay records. Right now from what your saying Rob, this could be done and is perfectly legal. I think the Smith brothers are already busy recruiting Popov and Bousquet to join their team for the 200 Free relay at World’s. Or were they trying to get Smirnoff and Bordeaux?

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

Allen Stark — Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:36:15 GMT

Van Baalen has been getting Top Ten times with SDSM since 1999 so he obviously has ties there. I think it's fine to stay registered with your old team if one wants. Recruiting outside your LMSC seems slimy to me though.

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

Allen Stark — Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:33:52 GMT

What is the significance of Vinus Van Baalen being on the relay.(This is not merely academic interest as I was on the relay that held the WR they broke.)

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

Former Member — Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:33:09 GMT

I've done a little checking on this character Van Baalen. All of my sources are in the public domain. The primary source is the statistical records of Masters Swimming Canada www3.sympatico.ca/.../ These records are maintained by Christian Berger. Once you get on the site click on Canada 24JUN then the National Rankings 96 - 04 and take a tour around. You'll get the hang of it. His name appears mostly in the 50-54, 55 - 59 & 60-64 age groups. It also appears that he moved from Ontario to Alberta around 1998. The second source is a check on http://www.411.ca This confirms that he at least has a residence in Edmonton. The 3rd comes from the Alberta Masters Swimming Club links page. www.albertamasters.ca/.../masters_links.html He is the contact for Edmonton Dragons. My gut tells me that there is more to this than meets the eye. I believe that the very integrity of records being set using this guy is compromised. This is an ethics issue more than a rules issue. I'll even go out on a limb and say he's a hired gun.

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

Allen Stark — Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:28:29 GMT

Yes,but he swam for RSA at Worlds in Italy.( I don't mean to cast any aspersions on him,he's a great guy.If only he was'nt faster than I .....)

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

Jim Clemmons — Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:02:24 GMT

Hopefully Tim will chime in on this but he's from Florida originally (I believe) and is associated with Gold Coast. Jim

RE: Citizenship/Residence & Records

Frank Thompson — Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:54:46 GMT

Rob: What I meant to say is that it is greatly discouraged to hold memberships in two FINA member federations. Many years ago I knew a swimmer who was contacted by the USMS Top Ten Chair because they had swims in the Top Ten for both the countries of the USA and Canada. They were told to choose one federation in the future. I never said there is a policy in USMS. "The USMS registration card does not have language forbidding registration if you are registered with another FINA federation." Perhaps Walt Reid or June Krauser can shed some light on this. I was on the FINA site a couple of weeks ago and they have policy that supports this but I am not sure if Masters swimming was included in the policy and it just covers the other aquatic disciplines. It would seem to me if that we have a policy that discouages this here in USMS for LMSC's and Clubs, why we would not support this same restriction for dual membership in FINA member federations. I think this issue should be addressed especially with the 2006 Masters World Swimming Championships next year. I personally talked to Rowdy Gaines at the 1992 FINA World Championships and asked him why he represented Japan in 1991. He said at the time he was in Japan he wanted to swim in a Masters meet there but was unregistered in USMS and had to get a Japanese registration to swim in their meet. All of his World Records for that year were listed as Japan. I know it would be impossible to marshall because all of the FINA federations register swimmers differently and have separate data bases. They also have different eligibility requirements as learned from Paul Smith with his experiences this past year in Australia. I wonder if there will be massive recruiting going on before the meet at Stanford. Just think, you could contact the best masters swimmers in the world and break all of the available relay records. Right now from what your saying Rob, this could be done and is perfectly legal.