The future of Men's Swimming in the US

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

Former Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2005 15:55:37 GMT

Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com I do though think that from the universality of these boys' attitudes that there are probably many young boys with the same attitude. I agree with you on one point--that view is universal among the ten boys you questioned. By the way, did you question them individually or collectively?

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

Former Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2005 15:47:44 GMT

The sample is not from Galesburg but where the University of Illinois is located. In Galesburg, most of the ouung guys I know are swimmers. I really don't know what there attitudes towards swimming are. also, I don't know them vewry well. The boys I do know all have a surprisingly negative view of swimmers. None of them are swimmers. I think that is very important. I'm not the message only the messenger. I'm only saying the attitude I notice. I do though think that from the universality of these boys' attitudes that there are probably many young boys with the same attitude. Rmember, I've asked these boys why they think the way they do. I was very surprised. Some of these boys had fathers who swam in college. They live in an area of the state where swimming seems to be a big sport that is well funded by the school systems. We must wonder why these boys gave such negative responses. This thread is wondering why men's swimming is in truble. The young boys got this idea from somewhere. Also, these boys go to a pool almost every day duringthe summer to mess around.

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

Former Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2005 15:04:56 GMT

Originally posted by Rob Copeland Craig, So you’re saying your surveyed sample, thought swimmers were gay because of the “dedication of the boys” and because the boys parents are proud of them???? Dude, find a better representation of youths. They may be good baseball players, but they exhibit a very fragile grasp on reality. Yeah, seriously. Swimming is FAR from Gay. Maybe it's the wearing a Speedo, (which I really don't mind in the slightest) but whoever thinks Swimming is Gay ought to get their head checked. :mad: :mad:

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

Former Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2005 14:57:37 GMT

Perhaps we can conclude that 10 year old boys in Galesburg, IL who are very good baseball players (and know Craig Johnson) view swimming as a gay sport. I thought I'd killed this thread already. I may have to post another photo of geek.

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

Former Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2005 14:08:33 GMT

Originally posted by aquageek I know a whole lot more than 10 young men. None think swimming is a "gay" sport. What is a gay sport by the way? Do they also think Lance Armstrong and cycling is "gay" because they wear tight little outfits also? What about football and their tight little pants, do they find that gay also? Let's not forget that baseball might also be a gay sport because their pants are usually tight. Same for all track and field. Please don't assume your limited experience with a tiny group of boys is indicative of all youth. It would help if you could substantiate your claim of homophobia by passing along studies that bear this out, not your small isolated sample of personal experience. I think to boys is a pretty big sample especially since they all have basically the same conclusion. They don't think football is a gay sport. I think underneath their opinions are true, society-wide ideas about homophobia in young men. I haven't seen any studies about homophobia in young men. I can tell you that from there attitudes, to me, there seems to be a real misunderstanding about swimming and sexually that is probably held by a large number of boys in there early to midteens. All of these boys live in a university town where there is no team in the uniersity but all of the high schools have very strong teams including the small and new Catholic schoool. Plus the Y has had a strong influence on swimming inthe community for at least twenty years. Because of this, I thought it odd that they had such negative attitudes towards swimmers & swimming. I've asked them why they think this, and they almost all echoe the attitudes and dedication of the boys they know who swim, the way boys look in speedos, and the way swimmers' parents are constantly talking about their hard working kids. I will say that all of these boys are very good baseball players and are on at least onetraveling team and one league team. I think this would be a great study. If you woudl liek to fund, I'll do it.

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

Former Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2005 13:01:50 GMT

Originally posted by aquageek You are lucky. Our summer league meets last 3-5 hours, twice a week. These are duel meets, not the championship meet at the end of the season. It would be a real problem if they took that long here, because many of them start at 6pm, and if they lasted 5 hours, that would mean they'd finish in the dark. Many of them are held on lakes where there's little or no artificial lighting. The length of the summer swim league meets is held down by the fact that they are composed purely of sprint events (200 freestyle relay and 200 medley relay are the longest events they have), and by the fact that there's only one heat for each sex and age group. The length of the high school meets is held down by the fact that they don't have age groups, and therefore there is only one boys' and one girls' heat for each event. Bob

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

Former Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:50:47 GMT

Originally posted by dorothyrde cRAIG YOU ARE right about that. My children go to a school without a swim team. I remember JR High age, my son telling me some of his friends were questioning him "Do you REALLY where those speedos?' and saying no way would they. I can remember some boys saying that about 15 years ago. And I can remember some boys saying that about 25 years ago. And I can remember some boys saying that about 35 years ago. (Ulp! Did I just admit to being that old? :eek: ) The bottom line is that teenage boys who have never worn speedo-type briefs have always imagined that they must be unbearably embarassing to wear. The teenage boys who actually wear them know it's not like that, and try to explain that to their friends, but the message never quite seems to get through. Still, it's been that way for a long, long time, and during that time, competitive swimming has grown in popularity for both girls and boys! Bob

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

Frank Thompson — Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:48:01 GMT

Geek, Gull, or anybody know this guy. I went back to where this picture came from and its was some guy named Mark from Maryland. He goes by freedivemd. He posted it of himself to show its ok to wear the speedo at anytime and anyplace. Since it was 2 years ago he posted this, he has never posted anything else. Maybe we should stop posting this picture so much because he is becoming famous for it. On the other hand anybody that sends a photo of himself like this is fair game to the USMS posters.

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

Former Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:41:23 GMT

Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com I know about 10 boys between the ages of 16 to 9yrs old. Three of them are sons of guys who swam in college and two are nephews of guys who swam in college. Almost all of them think that swimming is a gay sport. Originally posted by aquageek Please send links to study that show homophobia is impacting popularity of swimming in US boys. I'd be interested in reading a real study on this. I agree, aquageek. Keep in mind that when boys today say that something is "gay", they usually don't mean that they literally think it's homosexual. And, as Craig himself notes, there are pretty obvious reasons why they should know it couldn't be in this case. Bob

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

Former Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:12:52 GMT

Originally posted by justforfun Bob: But, how long did the game last? It lasted a couple of hours, which is also about how long a typical summer swim league dual meet or high school swim team dual meet lasts. Are there swim meets that last longer than that? Sure! But they are usually big meets involving a number of teams. The equivalent in baseball would be the Little League regional playoffs, which last several days. Bob

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

aquageek — Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:00:28 GMT

Since Illinois is appently the center of all thought on matters gay or otherwise, my sample of 1 from this area has weilded different results. My step-monster is a farm girl from Illinios who did undergrad at the U of I or IU and then went on to Berkeley. She is pretty darn tolerant and liberal and has never accused me of gayness because I swim. Baseball players also think Skoal is OK so I don't put a lot of weight into their opinions on much of anything. But, gull is right, any more discussion on this and he'll feel compelled to show another picture of himself.

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

Rob Copeland — Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:28:26 GMT

Craig, So you’re saying your surveyed sample, thought swimmers were gay because of the “dedication of the boys” and because the boys parents are proud of them???? Dude, find a better representation of youths. They may be good baseball players, but they exhibit a very fragile grasp on reality.

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

aquageek — Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:24:46 GMT

So, the research you did is talking to 10 boys in some small college down in Illinois? From that you draw some conclusion about all boys and all swimming in general. If that's the sum total of the research you are stating I need to do then I have you trumped, having spoken to many more than 10 boys in a large metorpolitan area, none of whom hold this attitude. I also grew up in a small college town and never experienced this gay thing you find so prevalent about swimming. So, 10 boys from an isolated small area is no sample and is not indicative of swimming or gayness or whatever you are thinking. I'm not even sure what gay has to do with swimming, just swim.

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

aquageek — Tue, 09 Aug 2005 09:31:02 GMT

Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com The above quote was inthe speedos thread. I know about 10 boys between the ages of 16 to 9yrs old. Three of them are sons of guys who swam in college and two are nephews of guys who swam in college. Almost all of them think that swimming is a gay sport. I know a whole lot more than 10 young men. None think swimming is a "gay" sport. What is a gay sport by the way? Do they also think Lance Armstrong and cycling is "gay" because they wear tight little outfits also? What about football and their tight little pants, do they find that gay also? Let's not forget that baseball might also be a gay sport because their pants are usually tight. Same for all track and field. Please don't assume your limited experience with a tiny group of boys is indicative of all youth. It would help if you could substantiate your claim of homophobia by passing along studies that bear this out, not your small isolated sample of personal experience.

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

aquageek — Tue, 09 Aug 2005 08:20:14 GMT

Originally posted by Bob McAdams It lasted a couple of hours, which is also about how long a typical summer swim league dual meet or high school swim team dual meet lasts. Are there swim meets that last longer than that? You are lucky. Our summer league meets last 3-5 hours, twice a week. These are duel meets, not the championship meet at the end of the season.

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

Former Member — Mon, 08 Aug 2005 16:56:04 GMT

C'mon Craig, I just covered my monitor with milk & cereal...

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

Former Member — Mon, 08 Aug 2005 16:49:48 GMT

"I am Michael Phelps." Works for me.

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

Former Member — Mon, 08 Aug 2005 16:15:02 GMT

I feel pretty dumb. Sounds definitely like a "Twainism". I just thought I'd mention his name as someone who knows sports and could really provide some insight to promoting ours. Like John said earlier, he is one of many talented people that USA Swimming could consult to learn how to make swimming more popular. Don't think we'll see "I am Michael Phelps" commercial a la Tiger Woods, but little blurbs on TV once or twice a year like last weekend is definitely not going to do it. Just seems like they are making a very weak attempt to promote and just betting on the fact that a few stars will shine in the future to keep this sport THE PREMIER Olympic sport it always has been. If my kids were exposed to the lessons this sport teaches, that is priceless to me. They will be because of me, but how many other parents are missing out on the great benefits this sport provides? Not to mention the stats many of us have seen regarding GPAs of swimmers and graduation rates. Swimming ought to show those comparisons to the "Money Sports" and I think it would definitely turn some heads of parents who actually care about their kids education and future. But as Paul Smith said earlier a Half Pipe swimming event with blood and broken bones couldn't hurt. Did anyone watch the X-Games this weekend? Those guys were AWESOME!

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

Former Member — Mon, 08 Aug 2005 15:35:56 GMT

Originally posted by Sam Perry Funny you should mention that. "A Good Walk Spoiled" was a book written but what I believe to be one of the best sports writers around, John Feinstein. He is an active masters swimmer in the Maryland with Ancient Mariners. Used to come on our local sports talk show once a week in Phoenix, and would sometimes promote swimming. One time I remember him promoting one of their masters swimmers at the 2000 Olympic Trials as being the oldest person to qualify for the meet. He is someone who could definitely provide some insight to this. IMHO... Golf is a good walk spoiled was originally said by Mark Twain. Feinstein was borrowing for his book title. The swimmer Feinstein was promoting as the oldest at the 2000 trials was Wally Dicks, who was a masters teammate of his. And I agree, Feinstein's books are generally great and he is really entertaining on the radio. He does a weekly spot on Sporting News Radio and once he said that he was calling from the pool deck of the USMS National Championships.

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

Former Member — Mon, 08 Aug 2005 15:23:55 GMT

Aquageek, if you don't think homophobia plays a HUGE part in men not wearing Speedos, perhaps you should do a little research. The above quote was inthe speedos thread. I know about 10 boys between the ages of 16 to 9yrs old. Three of them are sons of guys who swam in college and two are nephews of guys who swam in college. Almost all of them think that swimming is a gay sport. I like to point out that for obvious reasons their thinking might be wrong. Once at a public pool two of these boys wondered why there weren't private areas inthe locker room to change in because they thought that other peoe would look at them. If this image doesn't get changed rather fast, men's swimming inthe US is lost. I think that as fewer & fewer guys go into swimming, htis image is going to be the dominate one held by most young boys and a major reason why they won't go into swimming. I will mention that here in Galesburg, our high school men's team is larger than it has been in years. It has also been very successful for about three to four years while our football and basketball teams have had losing records for about 10 to 12 years. Most of the boys I know live in the Champaign-Urbana area or far northern Chicago suburbs.

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

Former Member — Mon, 08 Aug 2005 14:22:57 GMT

A small bright spot for U.S. male sprinting over the weekend. Ben Wildman-Tobriner wins the 50 free at LC Nationals in 22.13 over world champ Roland Schoeman. Of course, Roland was a half second slower than his winning time in Montreal. But, still, 22.1 is nothing to sneeze at.

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

aquageek — Mon, 08 Aug 2005 11:59:54 GMT

Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com Aquageek, if you don't think homophobia plays a HUGE part in men not wearing Speedos, perhaps you should do a little research. Please send links to study that show homophobia is impacting popularity of swimming in US boys. I'd be interested in reading a real study on this. The US is experiencing great times in swimming and you are saying we are about to lose the sport. C'mon, that's a little overly dramatic.

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

jswim — Mon, 08 Aug 2005 11:38:09 GMT

Saw the duel in the Pool segment they did on Phelps. This may have already been covered on the forums, sorry if I'm repeating, but he emphasized promotion of the sport and had dreams of bringing it up to a status closer to the other major sports. (he of course realized that this might not be possible, but that he still wants to do what he can). I think that's really important, and with some hope and encouragement perhaps he and other top swimmers can do something to get swiimming on the map. ??? I just thought it was nice to hear him say that, and it was inspiring. Made me think of this particular thread. Did anyone else see that little blurb? what do you think of it? I don't know much about any past efforts by popular U.S. swimmers to promote the sport and how it has turned out.

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

dorothyrde — Mon, 08 Aug 2005 11:28:00 GMT

cRAIG YOU ARE right about that. My children go to a school without a swim team. I remember JR High age, my son telling me some of his friends were questioning him "Do you REALLY where those speedos?' and saying no way would they. That group of boys in Galesburg are a year older than my son. They have been swimming together since they were 8 and under, and have been a fast bunch. At YMCA champs, my sons group would win when it was his up year, and the Galesburg group would win when it was their up group. I wonder though, if there is another group that will follow. Here there is, but groups of swimmers that bond so well and swim so well together don't happen all the time.

RE: The future of Men's Swimming in the US

Former Member — Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:44:16 GMT

John, I picture your thoughts as hand grenades...