Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

Former Member — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 15:33:41 GMT

Terry every post I make is probably considered - Marketing - I do sell the od item from my website, I sell my video analysis, I sell my swim lessons and am developing my own swim machine to sell similar to the endless pool. It is being built now in Mexico and I hope to sell it all over the world. But you mentioned the name I was going to use (Pool In A Box) on your site. Would I infringe by using Pool In a Box.

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

aquageek — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 12:24:16 GMT

Oops. Guilty as charged. Let's see that's two "marketing plugs" out of 200+ posts. Do you suppose there's a possibility that, beyond Leiming, there might be other novice swimmers who'd be interested in a forum that is visited by many people with similar concerns? It's two in the past week, now make it three. I think you shouldn't rely on the USMS discussion forum as part of your business plan. I'm happy to read your philosophies on swimming sans the blatant plugs for your product.

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

aquageek — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 10:08:20 GMT

OK, so twice recently, in the past week even, we've gone from talking about TI to marketing TI on this forum. To me, there's a big difference. If you want to market your product, use the private mail feature.

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

Former Member — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 09:54:58 GMT

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

Former Member — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:48:17 GMT

It remains my mission to implement a northern border limitation on this forum. Is that a northern border limitation on canada or anyone from above the Mason-Dixon line?

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

Former Member — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:46:23 GMT

That must be it exposing others to the American way of life. MacDonalds and Disneyland.

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

Former Member — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:40:21 GMT

Yes, and I suppose a similar thanks is probably required from South Africa. John Smith

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

Former Member — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 07:59:55 GMT

Thanks, bud. As you said, no national bundaries here. What really matters here is swimming. Actually I just started learning how to swim. This forum are too advanced for me and I cannot find a forum for new starters. But I enjoy reading the posts here even though I do not have a clue about the techniques most of the time(partly because they are too advanced and the language is also a problem). My feeling is that, wow, can I someday master such advanced techniques? This could aspire me to practise more and harder, which I think is fun and exciting. I do not know this IWMN philosophy. Is it really a fundamental point of USA? We also have the similar philosophy here. But it cannot be regarded as a fundamental one in any way. Good point, and good attitude, but you are overlooking one fundamental point: in the USA it is all about instant gratification. This “I want mine now” philosophy has, does, and will continue to get us in a lot of trouble. I welcome you to this message board as well. It does have a lot of great info, and can at times be very entertaining. And there are no national boundaries on this forum, which I think is pretty cool too.

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

Former Member — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 07:27:51 GMT

Thank you, Craig. But why can I not say "totally agree with Aquageek"? I really do agree with his view. :confused: You are welcomed to Beijing anytime you like. Just let me know when you come over and I could be your tour guild. You can also show your swimming skills. But maybe not in the Olympic stadium. :laugh2: First, welcome to the forum. Your English is quite good. However, you should never, ever say that you "totally agree with Aquageek." People will laugh. Coaches recruit foreign swimmers for one reason only--to win championships. And I am not convinced that my grandchildren will benefit from the taxes I am paying now. But that's the subject for an entirely different thread. Perhaps I'll see you in Beijing in 2008--it should be quite a show.

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

Frank Thompson — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 07:08:47 GMT

Skip....... What country won the gold in the 400m free relay at Greece while training a majority of its members at a US college? The 400m free was one of the last "Americas Cup" achievements for the US. We don't take losing this event lightly. When the US wins the 400m free relay in Beijing, I will hold my beer high in the air to salute. Until then........ battles must be won. This is not about friendly international cultural exhanges on the blocks. This race (and the medley) demonstrate the depth, power and superiority of a country's cumulative swimming program. We need to take this event back and grind them into a fine powder. End of discussion. John Smith Mr Goodsmith: I will always admit that the USA got greased in Greece. And we can all go back and read those threads about healthy Hall and sick Crocker. I really think the USA was surprised at the last two Olympics and the key legs of those losses was the lead off swims. People seem to forget about Michael Klim swimming completely out of his mind and setting a WR of :48.18, which was the second fastest time in history up until 2002. In the individual event he went :48.74 so his margin was enough to get them over the top. I also read that Anthony Erving did not have a good turn and was off on his split just enough to make that small difference. Just think if he could have done the :48.33 which he did the next year at the 2001 Worlds in Fukuoka we might have not lost that relay. Roland Schoeman split of :48.17 put the USA in a two second hole in 2004 that was just about impossible to make up. Now this year you have to give credit for the USA World Record effort of 3:12.46 which broke the record by .71 and beat South African time of 3:14.97 at the 2006 Commonwealth Games by 2.51 seconds. I don't know if this meets your "grind them into fine powder" but a margin like that isn't even close. And the relay had the same guys on it except Darian Townsend and he was replaced by Jonas Zandberg who was not any slower. The splits are as follows: Schoeman :48.65, Ferns :48.43, Zandberg :49.44, and Neethling :48.45. So they were not swimming that slow individually and they have there major work cut out for them if they even challenge at the 2007 Worlds. I hope they don't make the same lame excuse that they don't have enough guys to field a relay. The USA has thrown down the challenge and until these guys or anybody goes in the 3:12 range, I would favor the USA in 2008. Hopefully we won't have a collapse from the improvement being made in the last two years and have complete team unity which was lacking in 2004.

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

Frank Thompson — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 05:18:14 GMT

Yes, and I suppose a similar thanks is probably required from South Africa. John Smith A thanks for what? That recently the USA broke the World Record in the 400 Free Relay by almost a full second. And that South Africia did not even challenge the USA in the past 2 years in major international meets, especially in 2005 when they had 4 capable swimmers in Montreal that could do so. I wonder if they are going to field a team in Melbourne at Worlds in 2007? They did at the 2006 Commonwealth Games and went 2 seconds slower than the USA WR time. I don't think you can call me the optimist now because I truly believe that the 400 Free Relay is absoutely under USA control and with people like Cullen Jones now who is still improving I see no change in the future. I wonder what happen to Qater and the foreign swimmers they were trying to recruit to challenge everyone?

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

David E. Morrill — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 02:49:42 GMT

Several of you have pointed out the real reasons for welcoming swimmers from other countries to you ranks & files... besides "showing off" that grand American attribute of knowing how to pick and choose the "best and the better best"... no rinky-dink swimmers have scholarships. But one thing I do know first hand, having assisted a swimmer in obtaining a full scholarship in the U.S.A., and that is that the State Department knows the benefits of exposing the American way of life to those who will eventually go back home and implement some of it back there. Great export program. Saludos, David ps - oh, USA, thanx for making it possible for us to win those medals...!!:lolup:

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

Former Member — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:03:28 GMT

... To me, the tax paid today will return someday in the future. It is this kind of accumulation of generations that make our world better and better. It might not reward you or your son. But it will reward your grandson.... Good point, and good attitude, but you are overlooking one fundamental point: in the USA it is all about instant gratification. This “I want mine now” philosophy has, does, and will continue to get us in a lot of trouble. And as one of the worlds largest (if not the largest) consumer nations, this methodology has a severe impact on everyone else. We’re by no means the only ones with this IWMN habit, but we have led the way and we do set the example to be followed. Shortsightedness, overconfidence, and selfishness will most certainly spell our doom. Just look at what happened to the “invincible” Roman Empire. I welcome you to this message board as well. It does have a lot of great info, and can at times be very entertaining. And there are no national boundaries on this forum, which I think is pretty cool too.

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

Former Member — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 13:37:01 GMT

Totally agree with Aquageek on this particular issue. First, welcome to the forum. Your English is quite good. However, you should never, ever say that you "totally agree with Aquageek." People will laugh. Coaches recruit foreign swimmers for one reason only--to win championships. And I am not convinced that my grandchildren will benefit from the taxes I am paying now. But that's the subject for an entirely different thread. Perhaps I'll see you in Beijing in 2008--it should be quite a show.

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

aquageek — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 12:23:28 GMT

And there are no national boundaries on this forum, which I think is pretty cool too. It remains my mission to implement a northern border limitation on this forum.

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

Former Member — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 11:12:11 GMT

Leslie- the rest of us take precautions (hepa filter mask, rubber gloves, plenty of bleach) when sharing a forum with the Geek. The Smiths have plans to take more drastic measures. We may have to declare North Carolina an outlaw state for giving him safe haven (sorry Gull). Canada has already declared him an undesirable foreign national intent on internet pyromania.

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

Former Member — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 09:55:17 GMT

Totally agree with Aquageek on this particular issue. My country, China, used to restrict people from moving around the country freely or across different provisions or cities and rural areas(actually it is still more or less the case nowadays). As a result, the general living conditions of the whole population was very low then. Why? because the majority of the population cannot make full use of their talents to benefit the country and the people as well as themselves. Just imagine, what universities you can go, what place you can work, what social benefits and health care you can get, were determined by what place or families you were born into despite the fact that you were talented, you were working extremely hard, all of which could easily become nothing compared to the odds that your birthplace was. But with the economic reform as well as other reforms since 1979, Chinese people, to some extend, can move around the country freely, can make their own choice freely, can compete against the so called locals in every aspects. the result is obvious. the general living condition has been significantly improved. Of course some previleges that used to be only enjoyed by city people are now gone and spread to the rural areas. But to these city people, it is a fact that they are also better off in terms of general living condition. To me, the same principle can be applied to the swim scholarship offered to internationl swimmers. On the one hand, Americans are denied even though they pay the tax. On the other hand, international swimmers get the scholarship. But I think the benefits would outweigh the loss in the long term. Because international swimmers bring new techniques, new minds, new training methods, which clashes with the American way and improve the swim standard in general. This, in my view, is the major return of recruiting international swimmers, just like the academic field. For the tax payer issue, let's take another approach. Let's look ahead 10 years, 20 years, or more. Your son or your friend cannot get the scholarship. But it is possible that your grandson could do it. It is also possible that your grandson's outstanding performance might benefit largely or decisively from international swimmers. If we push it to extreme, that, your grandson might become champion only under an overseas training system that does not exist in America. Which one should you choose? the one that offer the scholarship based on nationality, in which case your grandson might never have the chance to become a swimmer because the training system that suits him is denied by America just because of the nationality issue. or another one that offer scholarship based on performance. Your grandson can be trained and attain a higher level. To me, the tax paid today will return someday in the future. It is this kind of accumulation of generations that make our world better and better. It might not reward you or your son. But it will reward your grandson. Please forgive me if there is any inapproporiate words. English is my second language. And I live in Beijing, rarely having the chance to practise it. Finally thanks this forum. I learn a lot of techniques. Good day! It's both economically and physically impossible to close the border. Communist Europe and China tried it and look at them now, moving to the free market economy. There are really about a handful of nations these days that still hang onto the belief that closed borders benefit the economy, Cuba and N. Korea are two notable examples, and fine examples they are. So, move on from that notion. And, I seriously doubt many of the illegal aliens you are so concerned about bankrupting our southern border states are taking up swimming scholarships.

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

Former Member — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 08:04:04 GMT

Leslie- you must terminate your exposure to the contagion known to us as the Geek, lest you be confined to a level 4 biohazard containment facility to control the outbreak of facile and irresponsible noodlings on the inernet.

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

aquageek — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 05:01:09 GMT

...noodling... Another popular USMS discussion thread topic.

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

aquageek — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 03:44:12 GMT

I think I said you swim differently with fins. Ask gull80 about TI, I get lost in the long posts on the subject.

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

The Fortress — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 03:39:44 GMT

Aquageek: This sounds like the pot calling the kettle black ("the Smiths have egos larger than Texas). Were you the evil villain, no doubt with healthy shoulders, that told me I could never swim "properly if I used fins in practice" I think it was you! At the risk of sparking too much controvery, what's wrong with TI (apart from its possible non-application to caffeine laden sprints by weight lifters)? Wait a minute, I hope I'm not high-jacking another thread. People will think I'm evil too.

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

aquageek — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 03:21:19 GMT

Gull: So Aquageek is worse than evil John Smith? I have a lot to learn. Aquageek, was it you who said that I could never swim "properly" without fins? If so, I forgive you. I have a thick skin under my fastskin. All you really need to know about this forum is that gull80 believes in TI above all other swimming techniques and the Smiths have egos larger than Texas. Oh, and I'm always right, don't forget that.

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

The Fortress — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 01:56:24 GMT

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

Paul Smith — Mon, 09 Oct 2006 04:29:55 GMT

Since the Geek has been far to tame in recent postings....In hono of college season kicking in I thought I would dredge this old thread up with some updated info: The NCAA Initial-Eligibility Clearinghouse provides us with a certification process whereby the academic records of all domestic and international prospects interested in attending either an NCAA Division I or Division II institution are reviewed to determine the academic status of each prospect. Beginning November 20, 2006, the responsibilities of the clearinghouse will expand to include the process of reviewing the amateur status of all prospects (high school/secondary school and junior college transfers) planning to enroll for the first time at an NCAA Division I or II institution fall 2007 and thereafter. In order for a prospect to receive financial aid and/or participate at a Division I or II institution, the prospect must complete the amateurism registration process and be certified as an amateur by the clearinghouse. Prospects will register online using the same Web site that currently is used for the NCAA Initial-Eligibility Clearinghouse ( www.ncaaclearinghouse.net ). Online registration is required. No hard copies of the registration form are available. In addition to providing demographic and academic information, a prospect will be required to answer five questions about his/her athletics participation, prize money earned, expense money received and any contact they may have had with agents and/or professional teams. Depending on the responses to these questions, the prospect may be required to provide additional information. Once a prospect answers the questions (and provides additional information if needed), this information will be reviewed and the prospect will receive a preliminary amateurism status report (certified, certified with conditions, not certified or pending). This preliminary status report will help Division I and II institutions determine if they wish to continue recruiting a prospect. Starting April 7, 2007, all prospects enrolling in the fall 2007 that have registered and received a preliminary report will need to return to the clearinghouse Web site to update their registration form and confirm the accuracy of the information provided. After doing so, a prospect will receive final amateurism certification from the clearinghouse. Member institutions will be able to access this information via the clearinghouse Web site for the prospects listed on institutional request lists. 2007 Prospect Notification: Prospects who have registered prior to the opening of the amateurism component of the clearinghouse will be advised either by e-mail or United States mail to return to the clearinghouse Web site after the opening to complete the amateurism portion of the initial-eligibility registration process. Any assistance institutions can provide in contacting and encouraging prospects to complete the registration process will be appreciated.

RE: Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

knelson — Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:09:32 GMT

I've probably quoted this exact rule in this thread before, but maybe it's worth repeating. From the NCAA Div I rule book: 14.2.3.2 Tennis and Swimming and Diving. Subsequent to the high-school graduation date of the student-athlete’s class (as determined by the first year of high-school enrollment or the international equivalent as specified in the NCAA Guide to International Academic Standards for Athletics Eligibility), a student-athlete shall have one year in order to be immediately eligible and retain the opportunity for four seasons of competition upon initial, full-time collegiate enrollment. Graduation from high school or secondary school shall be based on the student-athlete’s prescribed educational path in his or her country. The student also must meet all applicable NCAA, institutional and conference eligibility requirements. A student who does not enroll in a collegiate institution as a full-time student during that one-year time period shall be subject to the following: (Adopted: 1/9/96 effective 8/1/97 for those student-athletes first entering a collegiate institution on or after 8/1/97; Revised: 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04 for competition occurring on or after 8/1/04) (a) The student-athlete shall be charged with a season of intercollegiate tennis or swimming and diving eligibility for each calendar year subsequent to the one-year time period (i.e., the next opportunity to enroll after one calendar year has elapsed) and prior to full-time collegiate enrollment during which the student-athlete has participated in organized tennis or swimming and diving events per Bylaw 14.2.3.5.3. (Revised: 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04 for competition occurring on or after 8/1/04) (b) Subsequent to the one-year time period, if the student-athlete has engaged in organized tennis or swimming and diving events per Bylaw 14.2.3.5.3, upon matriculation at the certifying institution, the student-athlete must fulfill an academic year in residence before being eligible to represent the institution in intercollegiate tennis or swimming and diving competition. (Revised: 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04 for competition occurring on or after 8/1/04) These restrictions make it pretty difficult for these foreign athletes to be "two or three years older," or, at least if they are, they aren't getting four years of eligibility. The thing that always got me is it seems like there's a perception that schools are going out and recruiting these Ivan Dragos from other countries when in fact they're just going out and recruiting kids who are just like the kids they recruit from the U.S. Last I checked the U.S. was still the dominant country in swimming, but coaches know there are plenty of talented kids in other countries who can help their team win and probably contribute just as postively to the team atmosphere as all the domestic swimmers do.