Controversy continues

RE: Controversy continues

Former Member — Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:35:57 GMT

:26 per 50 is my top end speed. Like I said before, I do get the feeling of being in the right position, but I can't hold it. Mostly, I feel like I'm plowing through the water versus gliding. My kick changes from 2-4-6 beat the faster I go. How the does that effect the body position? I can tell when my elbow drops...the water coming off my shoulder fills my mouth and prevents me from breathing.:drown:

RE: Controversy continues

poolraat — Sat, 22 Sep 2007 08:32:13 GMT

Just a newbie question: what is TI? Some kind of hot potato we are supposed to shun? :rofl: Depends on which camp you're in. TI is Total Immersion. Some love it, some do not.

RE: Controversy continues

Former Member — Sat, 22 Sep 2007 06:25:45 GMT

I breathe on the left, I like to have the right hand extended above the water, probably a quirk. Anything to be opposite to TI. Just a newbie question: what is TI? Some kind of hot potato we are supposed to shun?

RE: Controversy continues

Former Member — Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:16:42 GMT

Poolraat when your hand goes in closer to the head. If you are not carefull when you extend underwater you hands press forward and lift. This lifting at the front pushes the front up and your legs go down. I will search for a small video that shows this action and post it later. I do have a huge one and have not condensed it to show the problem.

RE: Controversy continues

Former Member — Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:06:10 GMT

I breathe on the left, I like to have the right hand extended above the water, probably a quirk. Anything to be opposite to TI. I do not like the hand to enter then come up to the surface before it went to the catch this was happenning when it entered closer to the head. The left hand does not rise to the surface before it glides to the catch.

RE: Controversy continues

Former Member — Fri, 21 Sep 2007 15:47:38 GMT

The right hand is extended completely before it enters the water, thus the weight of the arm out front acts like a fulcrum and lifts the legs. Is that because you are breathing to the left? Does it assist in body rotation or just help lift the legs? Why not do it with both hands?

RE: Controversy continues

Former Member — Fri, 21 Sep 2007 15:10:54 GMT

The right hand is extended completely before it enters the water, thus the weight of the arm out front acts like a fulcrum and lifts the legs.

RE: Controversy continues

Former Member — Fri, 21 Sep 2007 15:02:06 GMT

The right hand is front loading the left hand is not. Ummm, huh?:dunno:

RE: Controversy continues

Former Member — Fri, 21 Sep 2007 14:07:14 GMT

The right hand is front loading the left hand is not. The pace is a little slow about 1:45 per 100m as the pool was set low the other film of me swimming faster did not turn out.

RE: Controversy continues

Former Member — Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:51:22 GMT

George Thanx. It appears you have two different hand entries. Left hand (breathing side) enters finger tips first and drives forward at a slight down angle. The right (non-breathing side) the recovery is in the air and the hand drops down into the water. I have been working on lengthening my stroke and do more of the righthand style. Its when I tire or try to sprint my hand entry is more like your left and creeps back toward my head. This morning, purely by chance, decided to add so extra drills to my workout and added fin swim (cause Fort said it was better for the shoulder joint) and I really worked on a long slow stroke and felt exactly what your video showed. On a side note: some of the other comments about core strength had me concentrating on my abs. I could tell I wasn't wrestling the water as much and during my sprints actually felt like I was in a good body position. It took about 10y to get in position so on a SCY pool I didn't hold it long, but I kinda know what I'm looking for.:groovy:

RE: Controversy continues

poolraat — Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:46:22 GMT

The right hand is extended completely before it enters the water, thus the weight of the arm out front acts like a fulcrum and lifts the legs. George, which hand entry is better? I notice that I have a slight sinking of the hips with each stroke when swimming with slow, deliberate strokes, particularly when breathing to the right. I don't notice this when sprinting, but the faster kick is probably keeping the hips up. My hands enter about midway between my head and full extension. And if I don't pay attention, my right elbow drops slightly before I reach full extension.

RE: Controversy continues

rtodd — Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:16:41 GMT

Allen, Very insightful. This point is not necessarily obvious. Unfortunately, unless I am sprinting, my speed is more like 40sec per 50.

RE: Controversy continues

Allen Stark — Fri, 21 Sep 2007 07:50:36 GMT

Buoyancy is irrelevant at speeds about 30 sec/50 yd as at about that speed you are going faster than your bow wave(that is you are exceeding your "hull speed" which is a function of the square root of your height) and so your body naturally rises. At speeds slower than this,buoyancy may be of some help,if the amount it raises you out of the water more than ofsets the expansion of your circumference.

RE: Controversy continues

Former Member — Fri, 21 Sep 2007 07:15:40 GMT

When extended keep the elbow pointed at the side of the pool. As your hand goes to the catch let the hand drift out side ways about 8 inches then rotate the hand as it drops to the catch. Apply very little pressure as it drops to the catch. Then apply whichever force you want once you get to the catch. If you swim this way you can get to a 26 sec 50 meters. Once we get there (26 seconds) we have to apply pressure from the time the hands enter, this actually lifts everthing and you swim higher in the water. What you see in that video of me swimming is a very relaxed easy swim. Stroke changes slightly as I start to go to speed. That lift you are talking about sometimes comes from dropping the elbow.

RE: Controversy continues

Former Member — Fri, 21 Sep 2007 05:27:22 GMT

George: When you hand enters flat at full extension as my does, I see how it can cause a lift. How do you get your hand in a position to catch without pushing down on the water?

RE: Controversy continues

Former Member — Thu, 20 Sep 2007 16:28:04 GMT

Questions: How much time is 1lb of fat worth on a 50Y FR SCY? Since fat is less dense than muscle. How much muscle do I gain per conversion of said 1lb of fat into muscle? What is the return of this muscle gain in terms of actual speed over a 50Y? Is this at all releveant unless you're truly at the very top percentile of your age group and have flawless technique? ...and finally: In the picture posted above, is it a Bird? Is it a plane?

RE: Controversy continues

Former Member — Thu, 20 Sep 2007 16:24:12 GMT

Posted by Geochuck: www.youtube.com/watch Fat has no place in sports (except the NFL trenches or in some cases baseball) I have yo yoed my weight over the years and feel the benefits taking the weight off. Here I am in the old days 218lbs not skinny not fat

RE: Controversy continues

Former Member — Thu, 20 Sep 2007 16:21:03 GMT

I think for sprinters (50M and over in 20 plus seconds with little breathing), excess weight is negative, therefore most sprinters are long and lean. Alexander Popov, Roland Mark Schoeman, Inge De Bruijn. However middle to long distance requries more breathing and longer gliding phase to preserve energy, buoancy helps. Look at Ian Thorpe, at 6'5 and at one point 230 lbs, hardly chiseled at all.

RE: Controversy continues

Former Member — Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:49:52 GMT

No thanks. That race was enough to last me a year or so. I'm not insecure. I just prefer no wiggle. I'm going on a run soon, so that should help. I'm sure I'm still lean and mean enough to beat you up. ;) Hah...you aim so low...

RE: Controversy continues

Former Member — Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:45:43 GMT

Rich: It wasn't my blonde hair that led to success in evilstroke. ;) Well do more BR and you insecurity about your admirable thighs will be unfounded even further.

RE: Controversy continues

Former Member — Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:37:57 GMT

Fat has no place in sports (except the NFL trenches or in some cases baseball) My opinion. I can't agree with this. Excessive fat yes, but there is a tipping point where a little weight may be of assistance for momentum, and stamina. Not everyone is built to be ripped. I think that our ancestors that had a moderate amount of fat on their bodies fared better in harsh conditions. Muscly extremes is an aesthetic thing, part of the youthcentric culture that is both a boon and a plague. Johnny Weissmuller was not ripped. Charlie Atlas was fat compared to today's body builder. Soccer players were "smoother" compared to now. For top pro athletes with the 100% nutrition and rest supporting "life infrastructure" (and funds) perhaps 0 bodyfat is sustainable, and of limited risk. For the rest of us including good athletes...a little fat won't hurt, and may be of benefit.

RE: Controversy continues

Former Member — Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:25:27 GMT

Rich: I am in the no wiggle school of thought. Inner thighs suck. Leslie without being a perv about it (a stretch for me I know). I saw your legs at Zones...and you have nothing to worry about. Besides you have blonde hair...

RE: Controversy continues

Former Member — Thu, 20 Sep 2007 14:56:11 GMT

It seems y'all are saying the same thing but with respect to proportion. "heavier" or "bigger" i'm sure is not obese just not the stick thin runway model. I think less fat is better to a point. I am probably typical of Tris. A full breathe of air and I will still sink to the bottom. My biggest struggle is getting into a proper swimming position because my legs sink to easily. I hate cold water, but love my sleeveless wetsuit! I've always been confused with the difference between Piersol and Phelps' physiques, but they are both FAST!

RE: Controversy continues

Former Member — Thu, 20 Sep 2007 13:59:25 GMT

Could everyone be wrong, did Archimedes' know what he was talking about. Many things change with the times.

RE: Controversy continues

Former Member — Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:36:06 GMT

Water is the great equalizer. Underestimating someone's ability due to girth can be a big misconception. Lean and mean is great for sprinting. That's a given. But a plus sized athlete can still offer quite a challenge in the distance events or open water marathons. I have to agree with you. I'm tall, lanky and a sprinter. I remember doing the swim leg of a triathlon relay and coming out of the water behind a woman that was at least 20 lbs heavier than me....and I had swam as hard as I could! Just to clarify--not so much argue with your pionts. I don't think a plus size is someone carrying 20lb or so. Just b/c you don't have 6 pack doesn't make you "fat." PS A little wiggle on a lady is a nice thing...not saying no wiggle is bad either...