Learning to fly

RE: Learning to fly

Former Member — Tue, 28 Feb 2006 16:33:14 GMT

Go to www.h2oustonswims.org Click on the Articles link Find "Slip-Slid'n Away" Read it. If you find it interesting, useful, etc., read "Vive Le Papillon!" Most important of all, swim fly with your body, not your arms. Matt

RE: Learning to fly

BillS — Tue, 28 Feb 2006 02:16:44 GMT

Thanks, MattS, for reminding me about those articles. I've read them a few times now, but I went back and read them again this morning. I find something new, or that something he says makes more sense, with each read. By the way, there are a lot of really good articles at the site, many of which are highly relevant to the apocalyptic TI debate which was recently raging yet again. Ann, do I need to know what LT means to make the set work? Sure, happy to help out, Wed. or Fri noonish work for me. And trust me, 30 minutes of 100 SCM's on a 1:40 sendoff will be plenty sporty for me, even if they are not quite whatever LT is.

RE: Learning to fly

AnnG — Tue, 28 Feb 2006 01:46:39 GMT

Bill your pentathlon is going to be great - this was my first masters meet ten years ago and you are further along in your training than I was at that time. You are going to have a blast! Just don't miss your heat - they go very quickly. Actually if you want to step up your training I was thinking you would be a good partner in one of my LT sets. I am to a point where I am struggling to maintain the sendoff on the 100's on my own. Since you are faster I thought you could help pull me through the last third of the set. So what do you think, the week of March 13th, 1/2 hour of 100m free on 1:40? Would not be quite LT for you but would really help me! Ann

RE: Learning to fly

Former Member — Mon, 27 Feb 2006 12:17:36 GMT

50 yards is only half of the 100 that you intended to do in the first place. It will be a breeze.

RE: Learning to fly

BillS — Mon, 27 Feb 2006 07:13:37 GMT

Signed up for a pentathlon (one event of each stroke plus an IM) in March. I never did swim fly as a kid, so this is the first time in competition for me and the public debut of my new stroke. I would have liked to do 100's in the other strokes and the 200 IM, but wasn't comfortable leading off my day with a 100 fly, so I signed up for 50's and 100 IM. "What's the worst that can happen?" I thought rhetorically as I mailed in the entry. Please don't answer that question; I'm sure I'll find out on my own.:o I swim meters, and the meet is SCY, so I'm psyching myself up by reminding myself that the 50 is 10% shorter, plus the dive will eat up some serious pool (I'm planning on gliding for as long as I can or as adrenalin allows, whichever somes first.) Should be some fun.

RE: Learning to fly

Former Member — Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:17:12 GMT

The fly kick, the more you think about it the worse it gets, kick from the shoulders and how in the world are your kmees going to be rigid and straight there is a natural bend in the knees other wise you woud be like a stiff legged tin solder . We have to let things happen naturally.

RE: Learning to fly

Former Member — Mon, 10 Oct 2005 16:10:49 GMT

Originally posted by gjy I forgot about the number of people (two here?) that don't like doing drills which is also me. I see there is an explanation of the one-arm fly drill here which I had been looking for. Not that I want to do it at this point - I wanted to know what was to be accomplished by it. Mostly I get here that it allows you to work on timing - other than that, the purposes seem kind of weak. I don't need to work on timing anymore - I've got it now - it's automatic. A couple weeks ago, I did finally give the one-arm drill a better try, for a full couple laps (but I erroneously, I guess, did not switch arms) and I couldn't even guess what its purpose was. I think there is a rule, isn't there, that you don't do a drill unless you know what you are trying to accomplish. On the Phelps/Bowman fly video Bowman refers to one arm fly when talking about energy management, i.e. you can do more one arm fly than you can two arm fly. One arm fly also allows you to slow the whole stroke down (as opposed to just adding a glide phase) which allows you to concentrate on various technique issues the same way many people advocate swimming at a slower pace in freestyle while you work on technique. Apparently Phelps swims a lot of one arm fly and feels it is important to maintaining and improving his technique.

RE: Learning to fly

Former Member — Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:34:54 GMT

Pseudoephedrine isn't illegal, just restricted. In Oklahoma* you can only buy something like 90 tablets a month (and present an ID, sign a logbook, etc.), but taking more than that would probably be bad for your health anyhow. You want to be careful with this if you have high blood pressure or any sort of heart problem, but small doses would probably be OK. Chili pepper (capsaicin) is a natural decongestant, but it might be inadvisable to go out for Thai food just before a workout. I find a nice spicy soup works wonders sometimes when nothing else seems to get my head clear. Disclaimer: My problem is (severe) hayfever, not asthma. And my butterfly is simply hilarious. Tom AFAIK Oklahoma was the first state to restrict the sale of pseudoephedrine (Sudaphed, etc.). The law has caused a dramatic drop in the number of methamphetamine labs, as well as in the associated fires and explosions.

RE: Learning to fly

Former Member — Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:24:16 GMT

I agree with most of the things said here. I myself am still learning fly. To me timing is almost the single most important thing. I always try to kick my hands in and hands out. I actually disagree that you should not think about kicking from the knees at all. This may lead someone to think keeping the legs straight (as almost in freestyle). When I learned, for a short while, I was under that misconception. For me, the easier way is to think of your whole legs as a big tail with the lower part bend at some angle when propellig (45 degrees). As long as you are moving your upper legs and hips the lower legs shoudl come naturally. Again, I am still learning it and just my two cents. The trouble I have is more on the pull. Do you pull backward immeidately after your hands enter water, or is there an outsweep and insweep involved?

RE: Learning to fly

Former Member — Wed, 05 Oct 2005 16:30:53 GMT

Is it a problem to have a runny nose once u start swimming? I get runny noses but that's it. I blow it out and then it's solved and I dont' have other symptoms.

RE: Learning to fly

Former Member — Wed, 05 Oct 2005 13:19:49 GMT

Originally posted by gjy I tried Claritin about fifteen years ago and it didn't do anything at all I admit, it doesn't do anything for me either. I use Allegra, but it's still prescription only. Another thing you might want to try is Nasalcrom, I believe it is over the counter, but you have to use it regularly for it to work (it's a nasal spray). It's also ragweed season in California right now, and my sinuses have gone crazy. What pool do you swim at?

RE: Learning to fly

Former Member — Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:31:41 GMT

I have the same symptoms as you at one of the pools in my area. I switched to another pool (still run by the same recreation department) and have had no problems. I wonder whether there's something in the walls or the ceiling at the pool that we're allergic to - mould, fungus, etc.? Heather

RE: Learning to fly

Former Member — Wed, 05 Oct 2005 09:16:38 GMT

"Is there another pool available? I have the same symptoms as you at one of the pools in my area. I switched to another pool (still run by the same recreation department) and have had no problems." Well all this is bearing fruit after all. I didn't expect that anybody else would have had similar symptoms. I've been using only one outdoor community association pool. I really don't know how close the closest public or lap pool is; I need to look into that. "I wonder whether there's something in the walls or the ceiling at the pool that we're allergic to - mould, fungus, etc.?" The pool was resurfaced at the beginning of the year. I don't remember what problems I had last year but I've had a problem the whole time this year. I've swam a whole lot more this year, more than ever before although I was in the pool frequently as a small kid. It seems that the longer I'm in the pool on a given day the more symptoms I have (in addition to the overall worsening). In the past, if I had nasal problems after swimming, I might not have thought so much about it since I have plenty of ongoing problems anyway. I've been tested to be allergic to mold as well as most of the rest of the things they probably tested for. "I admit, doesn't do anything for me either. I use Allegra, but it's still prescription only. Another thing you might want to try is Nasalcrom" I've given Allegra and Nasalcrom a good try. Neither works. I've been asked your original question, "Have your tried Claritin?", many times. I haven't tried the products that came out in the last several years so I should have a few new ones to try. "It's also ragweed season in California right now, and my sinuses have gone crazy." I'm sure that one gets me too. Possibly it is all the stuff that blows into the pool. Say when I cycle on a bad day, it is easier to recognize the problem. For one, the symptoms occur immediately and I may feel bad and my eyes will end up being bloodshot. Those noticeably bad days are not terribly frequent and mostly in the spring. After swimming, I never feel bad, quite the opposite. It is limited to the annoying nasal problems but a few times I have had trouble getting air because of the congestion. I particularly don't like this which almost never otherwise happens. Thanks much! I got some ideas to work on - probably for next year.

RE: Learning to fly

Former Member — Wed, 05 Oct 2005 08:42:15 GMT

Originally posted by jpheather Have you tried an antihistime before you swim (like Claritin)? Sure sounds like you're allergic to the water or air around the pool! Thanks so much Julie for trying to help. I tried Claritin about fifteen years ago and it didn't do anything at all (like most of the allergy meds I've tried). When Claritin-D came out, I tried it and it opened my nasal passage like nothing I had experienced before or since. Unbelievably good breathing! However, if you were to read the possible side-effects on the label, I had many of them massively. It totally blew me away, made me sick. Late last night when I made my last post, I said that the pseudoephedrine combo had helped a lot. About the time of that post, it was wearing off and I was congested all night and all day again and I'm tired of dealing with it. If I would have known, I would have taken more of the drug this morning although I think it loses its value the more I take it. I'm at a low point right now. The weather is hanging in there but I'm going to have to quit swimming for the year. I didn't expect to be able to swim this long and figuring it was going to end was the reason I stuck it out as things gradually became worse. Whatever is bothering me, possibly chlorine, has become cumulative. And the problem carrying over to following days should seem odd but it isn't for me. I just chalk it up to yet another thing that now makes me sick. Next year I'll either swim a lot less or be ready with whatever new drugs I can try. One of the reasons I am an exercise nut is because it provides relief for these problems. Swimming is the best exercise of them all so I hope I find a way to get back to it. "Is it a problem to have a runny nose once u start swimming? I get runny noses but that's it. I blow it out and then it's solved and I dont' have other symptoms." Well there is some good to my posting about my stupid problems after all. See how lucky you are to have such a slight problem. Sounds reasonably normal to me. I would just try to be discreet and proper about it.

RE: Learning to fly

Former Member — Tue, 04 Oct 2005 12:18:26 GMT

Originally posted by gjy But what happens after I'm done swimming is actually worse - it's like having a sinus only cold. Have you tried an antihistime before you swim (like Claritin)? Sure sounds like you're allergic to the water or air around the pool!

RE: Learning to fly

Former Member — Tue, 04 Oct 2005 09:08:53 GMT

Originally posted by jpheather If you're out of breath learning fly, that's OK. If you're wheezing learning fly, then talk to your doctor. There's so much they can do and it will make learning fly (and swimming in general) much easier! I also find that using my inhaler right before I swim makes a big difference. If I don't, I start wheezing about 15 min into the workout, which is the exercised induced asthma acting up. I never wheeze or get a runny nose while swimming. Once in a rare while I might sneeze. When cycling, all kinds of stuff happens (because of the allergens being slammed into you) that does not happen when I swim. However, when cycling, and I do cycle very hard, my asthma is far less restrictive than it is for swimming. In fact, I don't even consider it much of a handicap for cycling. I do not get exercise induced asthma unless that is what is happening during and after swimming. What happens when I swim is that my "carburetor choke valve" (nasal region respiration) isn't properly open. But what happens after I'm done swimming is actually worse - it's like having a sinus only cold. Twenty years ago a doctor gave me an "inhaler" but it didn't seem to do anything for me although I am worse off now than I was then (I would be willing to try again especially for swimming). Over ten years plus I tried every asthma medication on the market and almost none was good for me except that the steroid nose sprays help a lot. A couple years ago I stopped the nose spray because my insurance costs have gone up so much I thought I would see what it is like without it. I'm more than ready to get back on because it probably helps about 20% and I feel it is safe. The only other medication I've used is one with pseudoephedrine in it. It often helps and I still have a few capsules stored in the fridge but I never tried it for swimming, until now. I took one (low dose time release cap) before I went swimming yesterday and it helped quite a bit, especially at first. My "choke valve" eventually became closed enough to be a pretty restrictive but after I was done swimming the nasal problems did not happen like they always do. So I think I need these "banned?" items: steroids and pseudoephedrine (a stimulant I believe). The (now "legal") caffeine and ibuprofen are optional. Perhaps I need to top it off with an inhaler. Then I should be good to go! I've gone swimming now two times (in cold water dammit) since I adopted "breathing every stroke" for fly. First I discovered what a great drill it is to breathe every stroke. I found out that my form was quite rough when I breathe every stroke. I really went to work on my breathing stroke. Previously I had been a "late" breather and that was no longer working for me. I have to rise and breathe sooner to smooth out the stroke; I would have thought the opposite. Breathing every stroke still seems a little less elegant and I am slower now too. I should be able to improve both these. Perhaps I can skip the last breath or two when getting coming up to a stop because at that point I don't think the final breaths matter. You would think that for all the demand that fly places on oxygen usage, that breathing twice as often would help more. I'm guessing that it only makes it 5 or 10 % easier. I wonder why. Lately I'm doing freestyle right after fly and I want to breath almost every stroke for freestyle. Breathing every stroke for free seems to make a lot more difference than it does for fly.

RE: Learning to fly

Former Member — Fri, 30 Sep 2005 13:29:58 GMT

I've got asthma and even though we're not downwind from the fires (Pasadena) my asthma has been bothering me more than normal. I think the particulate matter in the air is higher, even though you can't see or smell it. It's the small stuff and that's more likely to aggrevate asthma than the big snowflake size stuff. If you're out of breath learning fly, that's OK. If you're wheezing learning fly, then talk to your doctor. There's so much they can do and it will make learning fly (and swimming in general) much easier! I also find that using my inhaler right before I swim makes a big difference. If I don't, I start wheezing about 15 min into the workout, which is the exercised induced asthma acting up.

RE: Learning to fly

Former Member — Fri, 30 Sep 2005 06:45:04 GMT

"Serious oxygen debt" is dead on. Most of the time, the asthma is not a major impediment while swimming, considering only that I'm not planning to enter competition. The main affect is probably just the length of the sets that I can do. However, you know as well as I do just how short you can come up on breath (even beyond serious oxygen debt) when you push fly at the wrong time. But I imagine it's the same for any other stroke if you push hard enough (hmmm, funny how so far I can only get the same level of breath exhaustion from breaststroke). Many times I switch to breathing every fly stroke, towards the end of a lap, but often not soon enough. I don't know why I seem to wait too long except that maybe it is not as obvious just how short the breath is getting until it's too late. I think I'm going to adopt "breathing every stroke" for at least all of the second 25's. This past week the (hot) winds have been so bad that I'm having trouble breathing, swimming or not. And I'm not even downwind of the fires you see on tv. It's weird that even though fly can be extremely hard in times like this, if possible, I'll try to swim tomorrow because I am still motivated by the fly (and not so much by the other strokes I do). Otherwise, I would call it a wrap for the season given the water temperature and the congestion.

RE: Learning to fly

Former Member — Thu, 29 Sep 2005 07:35:47 GMT

Originally posted by BillS I went back and re-read all of the posts in this thread 4 months after I started out. I was cleaning up old bookmarks and I came across this thread. I re-read all of it too, like BillS (the originator). The first time was rather quick and I understand things a little better now too. I get to BillS' post at the end and I see his "4 Month Update" from last week but somehow I missed seeing this thread up top (I should have gravitated to anything "butterfly"). I agree this is a real good thread and all comments are interesting. I forgot about the number of people (two here?) that don't like doing drills which is also me. I see there is an explanation of the one-arm fly drill here which I had been looking for. Not that I want to do it at this point - I wanted to know what was to be accomplished by it. Mostly I get here that it allows you to work on timing - other than that, the purposes seem kind of weak. I don't need to work on timing anymore - I've got it now - it's automatic. A couple weeks ago, I did finally give the one-arm drill a better try, for a full couple laps (but I erroneously, I guess, did not switch arms) and I couldn't even guess what its purpose was. I think there is a rule, isn't there, that you don't do a drill unless you know what you are trying to accomplish. One thing about this thread seems highly typical. The people willing to talk about butterfly techique (other than in "bullet" form) are all people who have recently learned or are still very much learning. It seems once we figure it out, we don't have much to say. I see a couple here, including BillS, are going with breathing every stroke. I was on the verge of taking this course myself. Congratulations, BillS, on your success to date ("50's are finally starting to feel pretty solid"), you've stayed ahead of me. Several weeks ago I was able to knock out good 50's on occassion. And since then my form has more than dramtically improved. But due to asthma/allergies, my breathing ability has correspondingly degraded. I had already been paying a heavy price because I was getting a ridicuously runny nose for the rest of the day most times I went swimming (it never runs while swimming though, only congestion). Often the running would carry over to part of the next day. But then the problem turned to primarily congestion and it's been lasting one or two days after each swim. It's not mild congestion either. So it looks like the only way I'm going to get 50 and beyond is with drugs or possibly with a different pool. Maybe next year. In the meantime, I've gotten great physical benefit from doing fly (3 days a week, and all the fly I could do, for the past month). My back seems to be more flexible and my upper body muscle has maintained even though I stopped weight training a couple months ago. My stomach muscles have got to be stronger. Every time I get my breathing back, I feel great.

RE: Learning to fly

BillS — Thu, 29 Sep 2005 01:51:17 GMT

But due to asthma/allergies, my breathing ability has correspondingly degraded. I can't imagine trying to learn fly with asthma or chronic congestion. I have yet to get to the point where I can finish any set of fly of almost any distance without serious oxygen debt. Good luck to you, I hope you can figure out a way to make it work for you. I agree that fly is an incredible stroke for conditioning, particularly for the core. I think it's helping my breaststroke, too, although I have no empirical evidence at this point. We did a set this morning that was kind of interesting: a 400 IM broken with the 100's as a 25 pull, 50 swim, 25 kick. I took the fly real easy, and cheated and kicked a little on the first 25, but found that I felt pretty good for most of the 50 and the kick. Somehow, the easy "pull" 25 got me going in a way that didn't sap all my energy and led me into the 50.

RE: Learning to fly

BillS — Thu, 22 Sep 2005 01:28:19 GMT

I went back and re-read all of the posts in this thread 4 months after I started out. They make a whole lot more sense to me now than when I first read them, and all are spot-on. So here's where I've ended up: I fell into a 2 kick fly. It just feels more natural to me. I'm currently breathing just about every stroke after trying an every other pattern early on. As I stretch the distances, I'm grateful for the oxygen intake, and it gives me an opportunity to work on my head position every stroke. I don't notice an appreciable difference in my stroke when I skip a breath. I was bending my knees too much and kicking way too hard. I find it helps to think about the whip metaphor, and concentrate on the forward momentum coming off straight legs with fully extended toes. My kick timing was messed up, I think due to my confusion over one kick vs. 2 kick fly. A private coaching session helped clear that up for me by emphasizing the rhythm. She also showed me how to correctly do one arm fly; I was struggling to understand how to do it. One arm is a great drill, and a great way to finish a length when I run out of gas. 50's are finally starting to feel pretty solid. Tuesday I decided a good challenge would be to do 15 consecutive 100 IM's in the middle of the workout; I was able to get through those by allowing myself to rest as needed between 100's. Yesterday I swam 6 200 IM's, although not consecutively, plus a couple of 100 IM's, plus a few extra 25's of warmup fly for good measure. The last few 200's weren't pretty, but I concentrated hard on not butterstruggling and allowed myself to come up early on the breastroke pullout a couple of times. So my immediate goal is to be able to do a 200 IM reasonably comfortably. Then I think I'll try and get to the point where I can get through a 100 fly. So far so good. Thanks for all the pointers, I appreciate each and every one.

RE: Learning to fly

BillS — Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:45:54 GMT

Awww, don't get me started -- the Aquarobes finish up around noon. The lap lanes in our pool are in the middle, with the Aquarobes doing their thing in the shallow end, and the locker rooms adjacent to the deep end. Several of them daily bob through the lap lanes after their deal heading to the locker room, usually with no regard for the lap swimmers, or if they do pay attention, hanging on the lane lines, or worse, the wall, until the offending swimmer passes by. It's not so much the distraction, or the hanging -- it's the insane amounts of perfume most of them seem to wear and leave in (always her) wake. The water smells and tastes of it for a long, long time after they bob through. I mean no disrespect to Aquarobes in general. I have great respect for anyone who does any degree of exercise consistently. But perfume in the pool? I'm trying Emmett Hines's stuff today; we'll see how it goes. I've been sticking to 25's, and stopping fly as soon as technique falls apart, even mid-length. I'm hoping to start stretching yardage using his suggestions. I figure there is absolutely no point learning to Butterstruggle at my age; I'll either get it right or I'll revert to substituting other strokes to get through the IM's. Curiously, Hines says it shoud be easier to do SAP with the arms at the side than in a streamline position. I've found the opposite to be true, and I ain't exactly flexible. I'll try it both ways.

RE: Learning to fly

Former Member — Wed, 08 Jun 2005 05:08:06 GMT

I knew a guy once who wanted to improve his fly. So he started swimming nohting but fly. He would break whenever he was tired. He started doing 50's & 25's, then he worked up to doing 100's & 200's. He didn't care about form, only how tired he was. In time he got to where he could go 600 to 800 yds straight doing perfect fly. He would breath every stroke. Sometimes he was barely able to get his arms above the water on the recovery. But in time, that didn't matter. In his case, form was unimportant for much of the time. Distance was more important. He would do work outs of 2000 yds all fly. He got a great set of ab muscles along the way. He did no kicking nor arm drills. Just fly. His shoulders became boulders!

RE: Learning to fly

Former Member — Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:21:30 GMT

Cin, Yes for a lot of people the 200 is conditioning, and it certainly helps. But if you want to discover the tao of the fly, learn from your elders. My first steps on the path to enlightenment (or what passes as such in my darkened corner of the jungle) was watching the swimmers in the 70-74 age group for the 200 fly at Nationals. Those dudes are decidely NOT powering through the race on pure conditioning. That was my first clue to breathing more often than every other stroke, since they generally breathed every stroke, but their hips magically stay up. Things that made me say "hmm." Safety point: I have developed a habit I call break away arm stroke to avoid injury. It's very simple. If I feel my arm encounter anything as it recovers (especially another arm or body part of a swimmer going the opposite direction), I immediately let it go limp &/or flop it back to my side. Missing half of a stroke cycle is infinitely preferable to breaking or pulling something for either one of us. I was pretty amused at your description of a whole middle school invading your pool. Been there. When I was a kid on a summer league team, we used to take over a chunk of a large municiple pool that was 25 yards wide. The lifeguards would simply run off the rec swimmers, and we'd take over that section for an hour or so. One practice our coach had us doing all out 25 sprint flys, from the dive off the side of the pool. That section looked pretty inviting to one swimmer (funny how immersion of the exterior of the body has such profound effects on the internal operation of people's cerebral cortext. Folks who would never think of coming within 10 feet of the out of bounds line on a land sport think nothing of sashaying right in front of a swimmer in full out sprint mode, usually with about one foot separation) 'cause he wandered into our area with precisely zero situational awareness. The first any of us became aware of his presence is when I speared the dude with the crown of my head directly impacting his torso at full speed. If it was the NFL, they would have flagged me for 15 yards and ejected me from the game. Lucky for us both I'm me, and not Ian Crocker, because neither of us was more than stunned. I'd be willing to bet though that dude was pretty careful about avoiding the swim team section of the pool in the future. When that's all I have for the IT cracker barrel tonight. Happy laps, Matt

RE: Learning to fly

Former Member — Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:12:24 GMT

The breathing frequency issue reminds me of an observation I made at a recent meet where I was a turns judge. Many of the younger and slower swimmers did not keep a constant stroke rhythm when they breathed, their stroke rate was faster when they weren't breathing than on strokes where they were. The faster swimmers seemed to have a pretty much even stroke rate regardless of whether they were breathing on any particular stroke. I know that for shorter distances I swim faster when I breath less often. I expect some of this is simply that I keep a more streamlined body position when I don't breath, but I wonder if maybe I don't also delay my recovery a bit when I breath. I really need to get video taped...