Trying to Get My #$%@# SPL Count Down

RE: Trying to Get My #$%@# SPL Count Down

Former Member — Mon, 25 Apr 2005 16:06:49 GMT

Originally posted by sefswim Great topic. Got a question for everyone concerning dps. I'm not what i consider tall....about 5-9 to 5-10..depending on who measures. When I do just swimming I get about 15 strokes per 25 yard lap. When sprinting about 18-21 spl. Does anyone know if this is good and should be better. You should aim to move a distance equal to your height with each stroke. I've been told some of the world's best can actually move more at race pace. I can do a bit more than my length but certainly not at race pace. One yard = 3ft. twenty-five yards = 75 ft. Divide 75 ft. by your height and you'll get your targeted number of strokes. So, 75ft./ 5.75ft. (5' 9") = 13.04 strokes/ 25 yards. If you want to figure that you'll glide 2-3 yards off of your start/ turn then subtract 6-9 ft. from the length of the pool. So, 69ft. (after glide) / 5.75 ft.= 12 strokes

RE: Trying to Get My #$%@# SPL Count Down

Former Member — Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:01:20 GMT

Originally posted by Matt S I like to think swimming has a lot more in common with the martial arts, and a lot less in common with running or bicyling, than you first think. Matt Hmmm, very interesting comparison. I like it! :)

RE: Trying to Get My #$%@# SPL Count Down

Former Member — Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:06:00 GMT

Mr. Jolsen, Reducing your stroke rate is an excellent idea. However, just willing it lower and working on your turns will only get you half way to your potential. My advice is to find a knowledgable coach or a school of thought, and work on the drills and technical fine points they can teach you. Me, I prefer Total Immersion (www.totalimmersion.net). I have got my stroke count when I contrate during warm-ups down to a reliable 11 strokes (or 5.5 full cycles or 5 breaths) per 25 yards, and I'm right around 14 for most freestyle sets. Robert Strauss has a very interesting discussion thread going right now on the subject of stroke length. However, the key is to find a coach and a style that makes sense to you, and work on the fine points that they emphasize. Just throwing yards at you and expecting conditioning to solve all is a flawed approach. I like to think swimming has a lot more in common with the martial arts, and a lot less in common with running or bicyling, than you first think. Matt

RE: Trying to Get My #$%@# SPL Count Down

ande — Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:57:30 GMT

congratulations! what do you feel helped you the most? keep going you've still got a lot of room to improve, by the way how tall are you? how much do you weigh? Ande Originally posted by cjolsen I think I've got my SPL down a little. Today I had a 16 with a push off glide and more than one 19 out of a flip turn. I also swam a pb 200 free in 3:06. Previously it had been around 3:15.

RE: Trying to Get My #$%@# SPL Count Down

Former Member — Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:38:57 GMT

I think I've got my SPL down a little. Today I had a 16 with a push off glide and more than one 19 out of a flip turn. I also swam a pb 200 free in 3:06. Previously it had been around 3:15.

RE: Trying to Get My #$%@# SPL Count Down

Former Member — Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:18:38 GMT

Amen, I swim so much faster when I catch the water. I remind myself of this on sprints especially. Right before I get on the blocks I remind myself to feel the water. (basically not to spin, but no negative thoughts pre-race :) ) The lower your dps the more efficient you are, the longer you can swim etc. Right now it might not seem that way because you are changing what you know and that is always difficult. I think if you keep working on getting your count down and you become a more efficent swimmer you will feel better in the water. Make sure you extend your arm all the way out and get a good reach. Then start your pull. "Pop" your elbow. Feel the water on your forearms. You should feel like your arm is anchored and your body is moving or like you are climbing a ladder. Good luck!

RE: Trying to Get My #$%@# SPL Count Down

Former Member — Thu, 21 Apr 2005 14:48:27 GMT

I really think that the best way to get your stroke count down & your distance per stroke up is to relax!

RE: Trying to Get My #$%@# SPL Count Down

ande — Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:09:15 GMT

relaxing is part of it but the key is catching water with your arms and hands the whole way through each stroke. ande Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com I really think that the best way to get your stroke count down & your distance per stroke up is to relax!

RE: Trying to Get My #$%@# SPL Count Down

Former Member — Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:53:47 GMT

Sounds pretty good to me. There is always room for improvement, but those numbers sound pretty good.

RE: Trying to Get My #$%@# SPL Count Down

Former Member — Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:49:38 GMT

Great topic. Got a question for everyone concerning dps. I'm not what i consider tall....about 5-9 to 5-10..depending on who measures. When I do just swimming I get about 15 strokes per 25 yard lap. When sprinting about 18-21 spl. Does anyone know if this is good and should be better.

RE: Trying to Get My #$%@# SPL Count Down

Former Member — Thu, 21 Apr 2005 05:54:44 GMT

The elbow pop ... your arm reaches all the way straight out in front of you as much as possible then you begin pulling. Try straight arm pulling doesn't really work right (too much water resistance)? So the elbow pop is simply getting your elbow into the correct position. Your arm should be bent at almost a 90 degree angle. Too acute or an angle and you aren't getting a good pull too obtuse and you are probably going to hurt your shoulder and not get a good pull. Pop it. Does that clarify?

RE: Trying to Get My #$%@# SPL Count Down

fatboy — Thu, 21 Apr 2005 02:57:56 GMT

Thanks. Just never heard that term for it before.

RE: Trying to Get My #$%@# SPL Count Down

fatboy — Thu, 21 Apr 2005 01:11:31 GMT

Can you elaborate?

RE: Trying to Get My #$%@# SPL Count Down

Former Member — Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:45:30 GMT

It seems to me that if your goals are open water swims and you do your triathlon swims in open water that concentrating on improving your distance per stroke by improving your streamlining off the wall is not the way to go. Likewise, if you want to emerge from the swim leg of your triathlon with unfatigued legs for the cycle and run improving your DPS by kicking harder might not be the way to go. It seems to me that you would want to concentrate on improving the efficiency of your stroke. A more efficient stroke should not leave you feeling like you have been pushing higher gears. As I understand it the idea behind working to lower your DPS is to find ways to move through the water with less drag, and therefore less effort. If the adaptations you are making to lower your DPS are requiring more effort then I would suggest that those are not the correct adaptations. Perhaps you need to experiment with recruiting your lats and back muscles to take some of the load off your arms? Is it possible that you are trying to maintain a high position in the water? That does take more effort at lower tempo. It should also be kept in mind that the goal is not to reduce your stroke rate, high stroke rate and long distance per stroke is faster than low stroke rate and long distance per stroke. The idea is just to avoid high stroke rate and low distance per stroke.

RE: Trying to Get My #$%@# SPL Count Down

Former Member — Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:35:51 GMT

I see way too many swimmers coming off the wall in the Superman position. Remeber him? Face face forward, hands spread apart and feet just dragging along. Every push off the wall should be done with the hands locked so that the ears are being squeezed by the bicep muscles. Toes should be pointed and ready for kicking after the speed reduces. This will get you easily past the flags if you stand over six feet. That's only one point. The swimming should never be rushed. Too many people dig right in after they catch some water and hurry the turnover. Not only does this immediately shorten the stroke, but it's very effectively putting on the water brakes. Try to slow things down with some drills where one hand waits out front until the other meets up with it before pulling. (Catch up drills.) exactly as aquageek had described. There's a good series of articles on the usms web site about proper head position too. Anything that makes you drag water is going to result in a very high tally for strokes per lap. (At 6'-3" my backstroke spl is down to eight depending on how much distance I get on a given turn.)

RE: Trying to Get My #$%@# SPL Count Down

Former Member — Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:56:07 GMT

In open water - have you determined your stroke rate? eg. 50 strokes a minute, 60 per minute, 70 strokes a minute. Are your races in salt water or fresh water. Salt water requires less kicking. When I trained in open water I had some one counting my strokes per minute. Race pace 60 strokes a min. I would do 1 mile in 22 min. At sprint pace of 75 strokes a min I would do 1 mile in close to 20 min. However after 5 miles at race pace your time does start get slower, no matter how many strokes you do. Open water training for me was 1 hr - 2 x a day, 2 hrs - 1 or 2 x a day, never more than three hrs a day. I would do numerous 5 min sprints during my training the counter who was beside me in a boat would blow a whistle to start and end of the 5 min sprint. If swimming in a pool I think stroke counting would be benificial but you would only do it once a week. George

RE: Trying to Get My #$%@# SPL Count Down

ande — Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:23:59 GMT

you wrote "The bottom line is that I train soley for open water and triathlon events. Should I worry as much about my SPL as a someone who trains for pool events?" Yes you should increase your distance per stroke or decrease your strokes per length, you'll take fewer strokes per mile and use less energy. A high stroke count means you have stroke inefficiencies It's not the same as cycling A high stroke count means you are slipping when you should be gripping. But you can improve your distance per stroke with drills and concentration. If you're a big guy with long arms you should be taking 10 - 12 strokes when you're concentrating on a long stroke and 13 - 15 strokes when you're just swimming Try: 1) pausing each hand on the front end of each stroke. 2) sculling to improve your feel for the water 3) doing 25's where you attempt to take a few strokes as possible with a 2 beat kick, exagerate your push off, glide off each arm stroke, 4) accelerating your hand underwater, 5) push your hand past your swim suit, touch your thumb on your thigh on the back end of each stroke, 6) glide after you complete each arm pull with your other arm in front. Ride the Glide. 7) make a slow recovery above the water hope this helps Wish I could be poolside with you We'd get you down to 13 in less than 10 minutes Ande Originally posted by cjolsen I was noticing that it took me about 22 pulls to get accross our 25 yard pool. I am a big guy with long arms, so I realized that this is rather high. (was I right?) So I decided to work on getting it lower. I took some tips from my coach regarding my stroke (my arms were crossing over a bit and I needed to roll more). I also did some 25 yard drills where I simply concentrated on nothing more than getting across the pool in as few strokes as possible. I'm to the point where if I do a good push off glide after a short rest and really concentrate I can make it in 17 or 18 strokes (is that still really bad?). But out of a flip turn my SPL is still over 20. Sometimes as high as 23. (Are my flip turns the real problem?) Now I'm going to pose something that flies in the face of conventional wisdom to the point of swimming blaspemy. In cycling one tries to maintain an optimum cadence for maximum effiency. In general, you shoot for the highest cadence where you are not bouncing in your seat. Mashing in really high gears is discouraged. Sure, you get really good speed initially, but riding the big gears will wear a rider out more quickly than spinning the smaller gears. Why doesn't this apply to swimming? Especially long distance or open water swimmers? When I get across the pool in 19 strokes or less, my arms feel like my legs do when I've been riding big gears at a lower speed. In other words, I seem to get tapped out faster when I'm working to get my stroke count down. The bottom line is that I train soley for open water and triathlon events. Should I worry as much about my SPL as a someone who trains for pool events?

RE: Trying to Get My #$%@# SPL Count Down

aquageek — Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:00:57 GMT

Distance per stroke is even more important in open water events. If you are taking 17 or 18 strokes per lap you are clearly using your arms way too much. You might want to work on your kicks, your flips turns and cetainly your streamlining. All of these are less effort than trying to carry yourself through the water on arm pulling alone. It sounds like you have made great strides, already reducing your count by 20%. As you continue to practice and improve technique you will see a further reduction. You will also notice you will be able to swim farther and faster with fewer pulls per lap. One simple drill I do is a set where I must surface after the flags. Do that long enough and those strokes will come down.