Fina Rules

RE: Fina Rules

Former Member — Thu, 14 Apr 2005 16:27:57 GMT

Sometimes I lurk in www.usms.org to see what I left behind, and I found this: Originally posted by Peter Cruise Ande- it is an unfair reference by me to a past poster of emails who focused on late-blooming & VO2 max to the exclusion of all else. For awhile there was little talk of anything that did not get turned upside down to reflect that focus= postings exchanged that eclipsed civility then warnings from admin. then penalty box then it was all over. You're doing a great job with your tips, but believe me, if this was a year or so ago, you wouldn't have been able to stay on topic. It is wrong on many accounts. My post here -a digression from the topic of this thread- is about right and wrong. .) gossip = wrong; .) "...to the exclusion of all else..." = wrong; there were informed posts that I wrote on many subjects; .) "...then warnings from admin..." = wrong, there were no warnings to two temporary suspensions that I got, one in September 2003 for two weeks, one in April 2004 for one month; .) "...then penalty box then it was all over..." = wrong, I left www.usms.org on my own, disagreeing with my temporary suspensions as I deemed them to be a censorship of my voice, while at the same time people were allowed to post personal attacks; I can post in www.usms.org; I prefer to post at www.usswim.org though; I always posted at www.usms.org under my name, Ion Beza, so any post at www.usms.org that resembles my style but is not signed by my name is not by me; at www.usswim.org I post once again only under my name; .) regarding "...it is an unfair reference by me to a past poster of emails who focused on late-blooming & VO2 max...", when you don't appreciate character and excellence in my late blooming undertake of swimming, when you don't appreciate my education for improvement (and here the VO2 Max Shampoo was a joke in bad taste by Tom Ellison, that you and many posters there reprised like parrots), then nobody forces you now or forced you before to participate in my posts. This quote: "It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the door of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." applies: I am "...the man who is actually in the arena...", the late bloomer who raised to unprecedented training for me (the most ever in my life, now in 2005, a 31,430 yards per week over 34 weeks of season so far, intensity and technique, cross training also), and competitions (5 in 2004, 6 in 2003, 6 USMS Short Course Nationals in the past 9 years, 5 Long Course Nationals in the past 9 years). I think that you are the other side described in this quote.

RE: Fina Rules

Former Member — Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:17:53 GMT

Originally posted by knelson No, the easiest way would be to go back to the old rule which said you must always remain on your back throughout the turn. Allowing the flip onto the front for the turn is what opened this can of worms in the first place. I don't know that this would be easier. The trouble is that, for most FINA/USA/NCAA swimmers today, it would not be going back, but going to a brand new rule.

RE: Fina Rules

Former Member — Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:13:53 GMT

Originally posted by knelson SW 6.4 During the turn the shoulders may be turned over the vertical to the *** after which a continuous single arm pull or a continuous simultaneous double arm pull may be used to initiate the turn. Once the body has left the position on the back, any kick or arm pull must be part of the continuous turning action. The swimmer must have returned to the position on the back upon leaving the wall. When executing the turn there must be a touch of the wall with some part of the swimmer’s body. So, no, there is no explicit wording that gliding is forbidden. However, if you glide is this a "continuous turning action?" I would say no. I don't think most judges are going to DQ you unless this glide is pretty pronounced OR you continue to kick after you've completed the arm pull. The things the rule prohibits are: 1) doing more than one arm pull after rolling onto your *** 2) a pause between the arm pull and the turn 3) a pause during the arm pull. 4) doing nothing but kicking at any time after you roll onto your *** 5) not touching the wall.

RE: Fina Rules

swimmieAvsFan — Thu, 14 Apr 2005 03:22:12 GMT

Originally posted by Bob McAdams I don't know that this would be easier. The trouble is that, for most FINA/USA/NCAA swimmers today, it would not be going back, but going to a brand new rule. bob, you're exactly right! i started swimming 16 years ago, and that was the last year the old rule was *the* rule. so yeah, pretty much the only people who would have ever done the old turn would be us masters swimmers... and there may be some wicked young masters (like the 18-20 year olds; not that i'm all that much older!) who weren't even yet swimming when it changed.

RE: Fina Rules

Former Member — Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:17:02 GMT

Originally posted by hooked-on-swimming You know, Wayne, Stephanie is right Would you mind terribly forwarding that statement to the guys on my swim team? There's a horrible running joke that I'm never right. Okay, it's deserved a little bit, but all I did was make ONE comment that mixed up a couple numbers - something about 23% of Japan's population being over the age of 100, when it's actually 23 THOUSAND. One little slip up, and I get ridiculed into oblivion. *sigh* Men are trouble. But it's nice to see you two getting along. :D I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

RE: Fina Rules

Former Member — Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:06:52 GMT

Originally posted by knelson No, the easiest way would be to go back to the old rule which said you must always remain on your back throughout the turn. Allowing the flip onto the front for the turn is what opened this can of worms in the first place. Originally posted by Karen Duggan and world records to be decimated, and back to be WAY faster than fly... they used to be pretty comparable. I was surprised to see that the SCM 200 back world record is faster than the SCM 200 fly world record! In all other world records the fly is faster. Clearly we need to allow flip turns in butterfly to right this obvious wrong in the SCM 200 records!

RE: Fina Rules

Former Member — Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:27:44 GMT

I think the backstroke turn rule would be ok if it said that you can rotate onto your front before touching as long as the rotation is continuous. This would have eliminated the problem with judging whether the swimmer was past ninety degrees at the instant they touched without allowing swimming on the *** as part of backstroke. I even suspect that this was the intent of the rule change but they botched the wording.

RE: Fina Rules

Former Member — Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:45:45 GMT

Ande- it is an unfair reference by me to a past poster of emails who focused on late-blooming & VO2 max to the exclusion of all else. For awhile there was little talk of anything that did not get turned upside down to reflect that focus= postings exchanged that eclipsed civility then warnings from admin. then penalty box then it was all over. You're doing a great job with your tips, but believe me, if this was a year or so ago, you wouldn't have been able to stay on topic.

RE: Fina Rules

ande — Wed, 13 Apr 2005 05:59:17 GMT

"Kitajima spends more of each stroke cycle in streamline than any male breaststroker ever." Right there is the key to breastroke a powerful kick in streamline position followed by a glide. RIDE THE GLIDE. Impatient breastrokers don't glide enough, they begin their pull too soon and fail maximize their glides. Steve Lundquist trained in Austin in 1984 right before trials. On Steve's breastroke kick, he'd quickly snap his feet back and his legs would finish high and streamlined. I had lunch with Eddie Reese today, he told us to keep our eyes on his breastroker Matt Lowe from Minot ND. Matt was injured and didn't do well at NCAA's. Ande Originally posted by breastroker Dima, Kitajima spends more of each stroke cycle in streamline than any male breaststroker ever. And he has the best ankle snap. So many coaches and swimmers think the catch of the kick is most important. I don't. I feel the finish where the legs acceleration is fastest and then snapping the ankle is more important.

RE: Fina Rules

Former Member — Wed, 13 Apr 2005 05:47:27 GMT

I think she meant 23,000 are over 100 yrs old. supposedly, in the spanish write up byt he judge, I was told, both palms were facing up and he was gliding. I've always wondered if he had only tucked his head would he have been okay. I think that European judges interpret the rule much closer to how Lindsay thought it should be in above thread.

RE: Fina Rules

ande — Wed, 13 Apr 2005 05:09:21 GMT

shampoo choice is likely to have no bearing on your swimming performance unless you use cement and let it dry but I think we can gather a group of people to test it out ande Originally posted by Peter Cruise Has anybody pointed out to Ande the efficacy of VO2MAX shampoo for latebloomers? It for sure should be a solid swimming tip...

RE: Fina Rules

mattson — Wed, 13 Apr 2005 01:42:10 GMT

Does someone have a link to a video of Peirsol's 200 back? I'm relying on memory, which is not terribly reliable. :D My recollection is that, for the turn in question, his last pull was with his arm away from the camera, with his body blocking the view. From the surface camera, it had the appearance of a glide, as you could see his elbow by his side. I believe the underwater camera showed that he was still pulling (from the elbow down) during the supposed "glide". As for the breaststoke, I *don't* know the rules backwards and forwards, and it was obvious how much of a body dolphin Kitijama was doing during the 100s, and 200 prelim. I mean, he pushed off, glide, dolphin kick, glide, pulldown-with-dolphin-kick... The man has his Olympic medals, that's not the point. The question is what (if anything) needs to be changed before the next international meet to handle a similar performance. Stephanie, 23% of Japan's population is over the age of a THOUSAND? I think you are wrong... ;)

RE: Fina Rules

Former Member — Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:57:52 GMT

According to Encarta, nitpicking is not hyphenated.

RE: Fina Rules

Former Member — Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:53:59 GMT

Originally posted by gull80 But they would be wrong--it's "nitpicking." I just looked the word up in the Dictionary of American Slang. It is "nit-picking" It orginated from picking louse eggs from your hair. Now it means being overly "picky" It is hyphenated. I always thought that it came from a woman piking at her stitches to correct them when she was knitting. Oddly, "nit" isn't in the OED. I thought that it woudl be but apparently it is too "American."

RE: Fina Rules

Former Member — Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:28:02 GMT

Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com Some might argue that this is knit-picking. But they would be wrong--it's "nitpicking."

RE: Fina Rules

Former Member — Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:16:26 GMT

If I had read all of this thread , I would have only one entry, sorry. In European judges & American judges supposedly interpret the back turn rule differently. The problem is the meaning of the word "continuos." With a European judge, Piersol did break the rule. The DQ was going to be let to stand. The reason it was overturned wasn't because it was incorrect but becasue it was submitted in Spanish. DQ's must be submitted in English. If the DQ had been submitted in English, Piersol woudl not have won. Some might argue that this is knit-picking. I don't know.

RE: Fina Rules

Former Member — Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:07:17 GMT

Originally posted by breastroker This is just typical with FINA. Now that Kitijama was allowed to cheat on the underwater pulldown, and by the way beat the american swimmer, then it is obvious that they would allow the rule to be changed. Kitijama's kick would still be illegal if the new rule would be accepted. *** stroke has changed so much! What about the rule to have an underwater camera that woudl have a judge looking at what was going on under the surface. That would definitely have a complete change on how & when swimmers woudl be disqualified. I'm not sure it woudl make it any more clear. When I watch videos of races at the turns, so many bubbles are created, I really can't see too much! Sometimes, I wonder if all of the rule changes are really that effective. Has anyone ever seen many peole do any kind of a flip turn in the *** stroke?

RE: Fina Rules

Former Member — Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:47:03 GMT

Dima, I have never had problems with your posts. I enjoy a good honest argument. There was some newby with 15 posts who I thought was out of line. Phil, I have known two of the all time great breaststrokers. John held the world record going into the 84 Olympics. Steve won the 100 with the greatest start, and finishing with three strokes without a breath. Both would swim under a minute with the new rules. Steve used to chide John because he often piked as a natural part of his hard pulldown. His body would bend as his hands reached past his shoulders on to the waist. John was probably one of the strongest gifted swimmers ever. His coach would not let him do weights because he would bulk up so quickly. After the Olympics he did pro bike, his legs looked like Eric Heiden. Massive:cool: Steve probably spent more time in the gym pumping iron than any breaststroker before or since. Voted "Best Chest" in America and cut like a diamond. Movie star looks, often had two women at parties in La La land. Steve used to say thats OK when John pikes, because he is breaking streamline and loosing distance. Steve was a true Master of the stroke. Both created videos after their days were over. Kitijama does not break streamline when he dolphins as he does it before his hands reach the face. Kitajima spends more of each stroke cycle in streamline than any male breaststroker ever. And he has the best ankle snap. So many coaches and swimmers think the catch of the kick is most important. I don't. I feel the finish where the legs acceleration is fastest and then snapping the ankle is more important. Allen, Kitijama may be your height, Mike Barrowman just a little taller. But you have to admit, you do not scare anyone with your size:D There have been other breaststrokers in our age group who were massive. Paul Henne and Miltenburger were both over 230 pounds of solid muscle. But you sure swim fast! I remember one year I beat you by 0.01 seconds in the 50 to make All American. The pools could have been that much difference, heck a fingernail could have made the difference. We are older, but with our minds and better technique I think both of us could swim faster.

RE: Fina Rules

Former Member — Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:29:26 GMT

Live by my theory ... It's only illegal if you get caught ... kidding! Karen, didn't mean to imply you were fired up. I was saying I would try not to get all fired up. :) Thanks for clearing that up for me Phil. So kick like hell is a good idea. I prefer to turn at the wall obviously but I HAVE to turn on my right arm so it creates problems from time to time ... So ... Peirsol got his gold as he should have and Hansen's fired up for four more years (three and a half now). Both good things! Peirsol and Hansen for gold in '05 (hopefully three each)!

RE: Fina Rules

Former Member — Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:05:50 GMT

Originally posted by Karen Duggan But what Lindsay pointed out was beaten to death in another thread awhile ago. I can't remember which one, but Peirsol should have been DQd. I remember watching that race for the first time and cringing because his first turn should have a DQ. I felt so bad for him but wasn't suprised when the DQ'd him. I remember this as well, though it wasn't during the final it was during one of the prelims. I don't remember which turn it was on, but he clearly came in, finished pulling, then looked up at the wall and waited a split second to start the turn. I know it wasn't the final I saw because I remember hearing about Peirsol being DQed. I thought it was strange because it had happened the day before. I think the way the backstroke turn is worded is relaly dumb. I got DQed once for the same thing, and the two officials could not tell me the same thing. One told me to kick, the other told me I was out because I kicked.

RE: Fina Rules

Former Member — Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:02:05 GMT

I do not like the specifics of the turn rule, because it penalizes a swimmer for doing something that results in a slower time, and because it is difficult to judge -- that is my opinion as a judge. I would be very interested in some solid data backing up the statement that Europe and the US judge this rule differently. As a swimmer, I never want to go back to the "touch the wall on your back" olden days. It is much easier to hit the turns well and it is faster, and less disruptive in practice (less likely to be in the wrong place when another swimmer is leaving or approaching the wall). Understand that the reason the rule allowing this type of turn was made, was because of how difficult it had become to judge the existing back stroke turn - swimmers were crossing their arm over their body and nearly turning over before touching the wall. Therefore, the backstroke turn now is better than it was, but the rules can be tweaked. The origin of the no glide portion of the rule was the idea that a swimmer should be on the back unless turning - the situation that has been true forever. But the ideal should face reality and lose - a glide should be allowed. A similar thing is happening in the breaststroke pulldown and the associated 'kick.' The problem is not Kitijama's dolphin kick - that was illegal and will, I think, always be illegal. That kick occured coming off the wall and before the pull down of the arms. What is concerning the officials is that during the pull down a small dolphin kick is 'allowed' at the judgement of the S&T judge (language like 'dolphin like motion of the legs is allowed if a natural consequence of the arm pull') So the result is that most, if not all, good breaststrokers have a very solid kick which you and I know is very clearly deliberate but very difficult for the judge to declare illegal (was it natural consequence or deliberate? Is it OK if the swimmer lets it happen, rather than controlling the core muscles and preventing it?). The feeling is, I think, that what is happening anyway, should be legal.

RE: Fina Rules

Former Member — Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:58:29 GMT

You know, Wayne, Stephanie is right - we got carried away by some race we did not even participate in too much.I am sorry if I hurt your feelings or said anything blunt and inappropriate.Let's shake hands and swim breaststroke with no dolphin kicks :-)))

RE: Fina Rules

Former Member — Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:33:31 GMT

On a positive note, Brendan Hansen did not swim a perfect race at Olympic Trials. I sat with his father and family in the stands. Got a Nike hat as part of the honorary Hansen group. Brendan could have had slightly faster turns, say 0.1 seconds in the 100 and 0.3 in the 200. He came off the walls with his wrists pitched down, this resistance cost a minimum of one foot loss off each wall. Say say 0.2 in the 100 and 0.4 to 0.6 in the 200. He could have had his head lower in the 100, like Kitijama. Just getting his head underwater for some portion of his stroke in the 100 would cut 0.2 to 0.8 seconds. Same for the 200, 0.5 to 1.2 seconds cut. His finishes were good but not great like Barrowman. Say another 0.1 seconds. What he had was guts and speed in the 100. If he can go out in 27.8 he can get to 58.9.

RE: Fina Rules

Former Member — Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:48:28 GMT

I'm with Allen, let those talented dolphin kickers stay in their own events; we pure breastrokers prefer to comtemplate the obvious esthetic superiority of our chosen stroke away from the cacaphony of babel raised by those who choose lesser strokes. By the way, the group seems well able to have a snarling thread without Ion... Has anybody pointed out to Ande the efficacy of VO2MAX shampoo for latebloomers? It for sure should be a solid swimming tip... Okay, I'll shut up...

RE: Fina Rules

Former Member — Tue, 12 Apr 2005 11:50:56 GMT

Originally posted by gull80 Mais non. You see, the rule is that the DQ must be explained in the working language of FINA--English or French. C'est bien! In the orginal thread about Piersol, It was sort of determined that if maybe he had started his turn closer to the wall, there would have been no problemo. also, I know some Japanese guys. Most Japanese are taught to *** stroke first. Then after that they move onto other strokes. One guy saud that they are now taught to do it exactly like Kitajima.