XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

Former Member — Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:34:11 GMT

I put my times in the last meet I swam in (the entries were submitted 1 week before I had started to workout). I had not timed so submitted what I thought I could do. Why lie? I was within a couple of tenths on 4 events. But who really cares if someone is sandbagging no matter what time they put in does not concern me. They still have to beat me and I know in a race I can always put something extra in to try and beat sanbaggers.

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

kristilynn — Fri, 05 Aug 2005 11:23:24 GMT

Originally posted by Xenadiva At the short course nationals I sandbagged this year and didn't even know what it was called but it wasn't by any means a deliberate strategy on my part..... Like Jennifer, I swam much faster than my entry times for short course nationals. When I read the entry information, I understood it to say that you had to enter with a time that you had achieved in the last two years. Nationals was my first meet since a meet that I had swum two years ago, so I entered with those times. I could tell from my workouts that I expected to demolish those times, but I was under the impression that swimmers were supposed to enter with OFFICIAL times, and those were the only ones I had. Now that I've been to nationals I realize that no one checks times for whether or not they are official. I wish that I had known this in advance, and I would have entered with my approximate goal times. I swam my mile over 2 minutes faster than my seed time, and it sure would have been nice to have someone to swim next to instead of lapping my heat-mates. Anyway to make a long story short - Jennifer, you are not the only sandbagger who had good intentions -- I sympathize.

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

knelson — Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:15:32 GMT

Originally posted by PeirsolFan To be openly and knowingly dishonest to further my own agenda would be very wrong. I really think you're taking this a little too far. Entering with a slow seed time isn't harming anyone else, so what's the big deal? Ultimately we're all swimming for ourselves and I think we should do what we need to. If that means "sandbagging" once in a while, so be it.

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

Former Member — Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:07:45 GMT

Is this the same Michael Heather who has been nominated for VP National Operations? Frankly, I'm a bit surprised at your response(s). Count me among geek's "ilk" if you will--I agree with him. And I think Phil stated the argument against sandbagging very eloquently. No, I am not emotionally upset about it, nor does it make my life miserable, but I think the practice should be discouraged as it is not consistent with the spirit of Masters competition. As for this being a "local" issue, geek is in Charlotte, and as they say around these parts, you can't get there from here. **JOKE ALERT** BTW, I'd be happy to continue this discussion on another thread.

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

Former Member — Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:23:59 GMT

Originally posted by aquageek PeirsolFan: Well, I think I have to disagree a little on this, especially when it comes to nationals. Nationals seem to be either on the east or west coast, for the most part. That really puts some challenges up for those that have to travel cross country and have long flights with big time changes. If you have already taken a couple days off work, abandoned your family, etc adding a few seconds to your time so that you can make a flight back by end of day Sunday versus Monday is ok by me. Sandbagging to avoid divorce court should be allowed in section 43.b.VO2Max. Yes on the divorce court idea... Some athlete was talking about what it takes to be the best and train - it's a part-time job and it doesn't pay your bills. Yeah. A day or two off work is a hassle, but what about your competitors who will come from Japan and Germany next year? If they make the effort... It's a part-time chore/job that doesn't pay. If it happens that I don't have time to make a meet because of work I'll either get a different job, work different hours, or not compete. To be openly and knowingly dishonest to further my own agenda would be very wrong. But it's what this country was founded on! :D

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

aquageek — Thu, 04 Aug 2005 11:30:00 GMT

I'm not really emotionally upset. It is interesting that you find lying to be acceptable when is disrupts competition, but, then again, it's all about your time and you defeating youth and talent, the well established themes of USMS. There are many things not explicitly prohibited by the rules but that does make them acceptable. Might want to ask MLB about that and their recent current crisis. I am more interested in why you think that lying is not dishonest and why your own personal pursuits by sandbagging contribute to the overall goals of USMS. That might cause me to change my opinions.

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

Xenadiva — Thu, 04 Aug 2005 11:21:51 GMT

At the short course nationals I sandbagged this year and didn't even know what it was called but it wasn't by any means a deliberate strategy on my part..... I had to submit the registration in March or Early April....I don't remember....... The times I put down for the meet were far off from what I did down there..... Last year I swam the 100 free once and got a 1:13.....I didn't swim the event again until late april of this year so I entered the 1:13 time.....At nationals I swam a 1:02......And I wish I could have been put in another heat because I fell short of a medal by 10ths of a second......If I had some competition I might have done better...... Here's a list of the times I put down and the results at the Nationals: Event 8 Women 50 Yard Breaststroke 18 Kyff, Jennifer J 31 METR 43.26 Result: 40.97 Event 14 Women 50 Yard Freestyle 14 Kyff, Jennifer J 31 METR 29.53 Result: 27.41 Event 26 Women 100 Yard Freestyle 18 Kyff, Jennifer J 31 METR 1:13.59 Result: 1:02.71 Can you change your seeding at the Nationals if you improved a great amount? I still don't understand why you would sandbag unless you were trying to get points for your team..... If you get tired and that's your reason why not just swim less events, or practice more so you have the endurance..... Anyway I've got too many emails about this so I've got to turn of the setting for a while.....I guess a lot of people get heated about this....

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

Michael Heather — Thu, 04 Aug 2005 11:18:52 GMT

I never said that the point of racing was to defeat youth and talent. I have edited my post to help you understand. I would normally be quite amenable to having a flame war with you and your ilk, but it does not serve the purpose of this DF. I will say that I am a little lost on the reasons that some people are so emotionally upset about sandbagging. It is not contrary to the rules as they now exist, so it is not dishonest. The only way to sandbag at nationals is the way I did it, in a distance event, since all other heats are seeded by age groups. This must truly be a local issue, and I am sorry if a horde of sandbaggers are making your lives miserable.

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

Former Member — Thu, 04 Aug 2005 08:24:39 GMT

I entered a meet with the times I had swum consistently at in season meets ... I smoked my 500 seed time big time. I probably would have been two heats, maybe three ahead... tapering does wonders ... also if you switch between courses it's hard to gage your times. Of course that is different from intentionally sandbagging ... but people will always do that ... the only thing you can do is to write down your times as accurately as possible ... On the flip side of this argument what about those people that seed themselves in a heat with too fast of a time ... that can be detrimental to the other swimmers too ...

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

Former Member — Thu, 04 Aug 2005 07:32:14 GMT

I'm not sympathetic to the "I have to leave early" excuse. You know in order to compete you must travel. It's a part of the sport you have chosen to participate in. You should plan accordingly. I've looked at the event schedule for this particular meet and it's sad that instead of 2 or 3 events, my schedule will only permit 1. There's no justification for anyone to lie about their ability in order to accomodate their personal schedule. Quite selfish and again, not in the spirit of competition. Just because there is not a current rule specially banning the practice doesn't make it right. FINA's "honor system" is just that. They hope that you will do the right thing.

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

Former Member — Thu, 04 Aug 2005 06:35:11 GMT

I think that sandbagging for the purpose of gaining a competitive advantage is unsportsmanlike and has no place in Masters swimming. Putting in a slower seed time so that you can make your flight out isn't the best thing, but if it's an unusual circumstance I probably wouldn't have a problem with it. People who put in slower seed times ALL the time, because they want clear water, or more rest, are the problem. They anger the people who are stuck swimming with them, and the people they should be swimming against. I remember a few specific examples from my time in Northern California that were brought to the attention of the LMSC Committee.

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

Former Member — Thu, 04 Aug 2005 06:31:52 GMT

There is an anti-sandbagging rule in the rule book. See 104.5.5A (11) in the section on national championships, which reads: If a swimmer enters a deck-seeded event with a time significantly slower than his/her recently recorded time, the meet director may, after notifying the swimmer, change the seeded time to a realistic time. This rule was added a few years ago, specifically targetting sandbaggers at nationals.

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

Former Member — Thu, 04 Aug 2005 06:28:00 GMT

Well what if you have your three best events all in a row in a championship meet?

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

Former Member — Thu, 04 Aug 2005 06:10:58 GMT

Originally posted by aquageek It's dishonest for a number of reasons. First, it's lying. Second, you sandbag, you adversely impact all in your heat and other heats. Third, there is no unofficial spirit of Master's swimming that I've seen that encourages cheats. Fourth, Masters points are scored by your age group, not other age groups. Last, the only real reason to sandbag is if you are afraid of your competition and desire to swim against those of lesser, or developing, talent. For instance, I do not drop my times in the 200 free when racing gull80 in my clown suit. He has grown accustomed to the whooping he takes from my floppy footed suit with a legit time. Very well said. 100% agree.

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

aquageek — Thu, 04 Aug 2005 05:17:54 GMT

Originally posted by Michael Heather The whole point of swimming competition is to race the clock. It would help your point on dignity if you could maintain a consistent argument. First you said the point of racing is to defeat youth and talent. Now, it is to beat the clock. I can't help it that I find lying at a meet unacceptable and you find it fair competition. That's where we differ. But, I'm happy to let you win heat one while the rest of us swim against folks that have posted real times and pose a real challenge. After all, that heat winner ribbon is the most important thing, or is it racing the clock, or is it beating youth and talent, hard to stay with you on this. A false start is an honest mistake. A sandbag is not.

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

knelson — Thu, 04 Aug 2005 04:07:16 GMT

Hear hear Geek, and in this case we're talking about a meet that ends on Monday, not Sunday, so I'm already missing a day of work. Also, what if you're just guessing at a seed time anyway? I haven't swum the 1500 since college so I can really only guess what kind of time I'll swim. Entering with something a little slower than I might swim hardly constitutes cheating in my mind.

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

aquageek — Thu, 04 Aug 2005 03:41:34 GMT

PeirsolFan: Well, I think I have to disagree a little on this, especially when it comes to nationals. Nationals seem to be either on the east or west coast, for the most part. That really puts some challenges up for those that have to travel cross country and have long flights with big time changes. If you have already taken a couple days off work, abandoned your family, etc adding a few seconds to your time so that you can make a flight back by end of day Sunday versus Monday is ok by me. Sandbagging to avoid divorce court should be allowed in section 43.b.VO2Max.

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

aquageek — Thu, 04 Aug 2005 03:01:41 GMT

Originally posted by SwiminONandON Well what if you have your three best events all in a row in a championship meet? Good point. I think if this is the case, you might not be able to swim your fastest times for all three or any of the three, for that matter. As long as you put a time that your reasonably expect to swim in the event, not your fastest, then I do not think you have sandbagged at all.

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

Jeff Commings — Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:40:34 GMT

Originally posted by Michael Heather The whole point of swimming competition is to race the clock. Other people in the water make it exciting sometimes, but time is the real goal, otherwise we wouldn't use watches. Then why have swim meets? Why not just climb up on the blocks at your local pool, have someone time you and be done with it? Why bother with getting up at the crack of dawn, driving to an unknown pool, finding a parking spot, changing in a small locker room, swimming in crowded lanes for warmup, trying to fit your chair in a cramped spectator area and waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting for your event, only to have to share the water with seven other people? Listen, part of competition is about getting the best time you can get, but it's also about winning. The watches help determine who wins close races, more than anything.

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

knelson — Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:12:26 GMT

I have to agree with Michael here. I've never sandbagged before, but maybe I should have. I won't be able to swim the 1500 at LC Nats because I'd miss my flight if I swam in the heat I would be seeded in. If I would have "sandbagged" and entered a slower time I would get to swim the event. As has been pointed out by most of the posters in the thread about getting out a workout early, Masters swimmers generally understand that their peers may have health issues, time conflicts, etc. and getting out early is perfectly acceptable. I would suggest sandbagging is the same kind of thing. Whatever any masters swimmer chooses to do in workouts or competition should only concern that swimmer, not anyone else.

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

Michael Heather — Thu, 04 Aug 2005 01:41:44 GMT

Very well stated argument, Phil. I take issue with only one point. The whole point of swimming competition is to race the clock. Other people in the water make it exciting sometimes, but time is the real goal, otherwise we wouldn't use watches. This entire argument is a tempest in a teacup, unless the rest of the country is rife with sandbaggers. Even in our local championships (250-500 swimmers), I have rarely seen more than one or two probable sandbaggers shooting ahead of their heats. And never the same people from year to year. I understand the argument about the timeline affect, but it is likely less than the affect of a false start, which is also not cheating but does happen on occasion. What would you call an entire heat of sandbaggers? How about heat one?

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

Former Member — Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:59:47 GMT

If sandbagging is in the spirit of Masters swimming, why not just do away with seeding heats altogether? First come first serve, like festival seating at a concert. Less work for the meet organizers. Saves paper, too--no heat sheets. I guess it's like my 82 yr old dad (also a USMS member) tells me--when you get to be his age, you should be able to do what you want. He's never sandbagged, however.

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

Former Member — Wed, 03 Aug 2005 14:43:53 GMT

As a live and let live kind of guy, sandbaggers don't really bother me. For the moment, however, I do not swim in heats that sandbaggers enter. But it is not something that I would do. I am still embarassed by what happened in the first nationals I entered (and my first meet). I underestimated how fast I would go (or overestimated how slow I would go) and got several heat-winner prizes (I didn't sandbag, honest!) My understanding of the request for seed times is that they are either the best you have done in the last two years, or a reasonable estimate of what you will swim in the actual meet. In either case a sandbagged time is not in the spirit of the event. The time line affected, slightly, as slower swimmers are moved into heats that should be faster. Swimmers, especially inexperienced ones (or experienced ones like me, but not in distance events) often try to pace from someone in an adjacent lane who they expect will swim at their target pace. A sandbagger certainly messes that up. One more opportunity for a faster swimmer to race against another fast swimmer is lost. The justifications given in some of the above posts work well as long as the sandbagger is the only one doing it. But if everyone does it, the whole meet falls apart. Many rules and social expectations are set with that in mind -- the violation by one is trivial, but the violation by many can be very serious. Most important, the whole point of meets is to race against someone. Why not do a time trial some weekday morning, otherwise? The fun part of a meet is sprinting past someone at the end of an event, or holding someone off, or comparing turn effectiveness, or the self-awareness gained as someone passes you in the last length. All that is lost to a sandbagger.

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

Michael Heather — Wed, 03 Aug 2005 07:53:12 GMT

We are throwing around some pretty powerful accusations here, perhaps you would like to rethink some of the things you have said? Dishonest? I don't think so. even sandbages have to enter the meet and be listed on the heat sheets, just like everyone else. Lying? Hardly. No one expects you to enter the fastest time you ever did for an event, and there is no requirement that I am aware of that compels you even to enter an accurate time. Usually, if it is referred to at all, you are asked to enter your best estimate or no time. Cheat? Now here you have gone too far. sandbaggers are swimmers, too. They do not turn around in the middle of the pool or wear fins on the blocks. Think of them like you might a fitness swimmer at a meet, they just want to get their time and go home, where they are probably not accused of being a dishonest, lying cheat. As long as there is no rule against the practice, they are none of the above, and perhaps you could show a little dignity by saving accusations like those for a proper time and venue. And save your petty insult about being afraid of competition. Fear spews from the false accuser.

RE: XI FINA World Masters Championships - Schedule and Qualifying times

Former Member — Wed, 03 Aug 2005 05:29:05 GMT

I used the word "annoying" on purpose; I save the stronger words for more important issues. I am annoyed that whenever I go to Canadian or US Nats at these guys who *oops!* discover that they are six seconds faster than the rest of us, esp. in breastsroke where you can see them disappearing into the sunset. Yes, I know, stick to your own race & pace; be strong in your own self, grasshopper, yada yada yada. As I say...annoying. Now, as to that which I find truly discombobulating...dolphin kick in breastroke, for example, I 'll find a more appropriate venue.