200m Freestyle

RE: 200m Freestyle

Rob Copeland — Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:20:45 GMT

Congratulations! I hope you are accepted into the program. If/when you are accepted and working under OTC training staff you will be amazed at how quickly great coaching will take that 2:35 down to 2:20 or 2:10 or 2:00. Good luck and keep us posted.

RE: 200m Freestyle

Former Member — Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:06:41 GMT

I took my test today and I swam 200 LCM in 2.37. With the 2 sec altitude conversion, I was given 2.35. That's about what I thought I may be capable of doing and I'm sort of pleased with the result. It was good enough for a little more than 900 points. I ran 8.28 for 3000m which gave me about 1450 points. I just missed the 2400 point qualifier, but coaches were pleased so there is a good chance I may be accepted into the program based on today's performances. They said my swimming technical flaws can be fixed and I can swim much faster in a relatively short period of time. If I were to sumarize my own performance I'd say I swam like a little school girl. I thought I was a seasoned athlete, but today I got real nervous. I guess it's hard to be confident when you're inexperienced and unprepared. At the start I lost my footing and I barely pushed off the starting block. Somehow I made it in the water head first. After a pathetic flip turn at the 50m, I reached the 100 in 1.14 which didn't feel too bad. Soon after that my form fell apart and I went from feeling all right to real bad and it was all downhill from there. If I make the cut I will be training at the OTC for the next few years and I'm sure I will be getting professional help. Thanks a lot for your support and advice. I like this board, and I will post updates with the occasional "dumb" question. Thanks again!

RE: 200m Freestyle

Former Member — Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:20:48 GMT

At my first masters meet 2 months ago I did a really great belly flop on my 50 fly. My stomach was purple for hours. Talk about a badge of honor. :) ... It was my first dive from the blocks in 20 years, but when stuff like that happens the only thing you can do is laugh about it.

RE: 200m Freestyle

Former Member — Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:16:49 GMT

To me it sounds like you have been tappering since you started swimming. I would keep going until the day before the meet. The day before a nice 500 m warmup, a few sprints of 50 with 1 min rest and a 300 cool down swim. with all of your turns push off hard making sure you are steamlined. Have a good warmup the day of the race and keep your body and head covered, wear wool socks with runners to keep your feet warm until you get on the block. Don't do the prezel streaches I have seen everyone doing, just keep loose. Good luck, May The Force Be with You, George

RE: 200m Freestyle

Former Member — Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:14:33 GMT

Keep your speed up and your reps down. You want to rest your muscles. - That's pretty much the concept (as you already know). If I were in your shoes my taper would be: 400 warm up. Very slowly, meditative concentrate on body position. 1 x 100 strong, but not fast. 4 x 50 nearly race speed with a good rest. 200 warm down. Slowly. Stretch out. I wouldn't swim much more than that. If I did it would be very slowly, making sure not to strain. Tapering is not about working out. It's about reminding yourself how you must swim for the event. You're transitioning to a healing phase. It's a balance between keeping your speed up with good technique, and resting your muscles. For simplicity reasons I tend to keep the same workout the entire week I'm tapering. Other people have more complex tapering routines. I really have to fight the urge to swim more or faster when I'm tapering. I tend to feel really good and want to go more. It's only natural. Remind yourself to save it for the day.

RE: 200m Freestyle

Former Member — Mon, 21 Mar 2005 07:21:19 GMT

How do I taper off and what should I do the days before competition/test? Day before? I've been doing some 50y (7-8). I feel confortable swimming 32/33 with about 20 sec recovery. I pushed the last one in 29.6 and I felt strong. I've been running less so I may feel energized because of that as well.

RE: 200m Freestyle

Former Member — Sun, 20 Mar 2005 07:23:29 GMT

Sandu, I acknowledge your appreciation for swimming technique. And hey, from the splits you discussed, 1:20 for 100m, making your goal time for the 200m would be a stretch, but not outside the realm of the possible. As I said before, please feel free to dish out a helping of crow for me, and I'll eat with a smile on my face and compliments to the chef. I understand now the disconnect between our approaches to swimming. You asked triathletes for advice on swimming (ACK!) Put it this way, asking a triathlete for advice on a 200m swim, is like asking a tug boat skipper for advice on building a formula one race car. Yes, they both have combustion engines, but the similarity ends there. Without trying to be tedious, let me list some of the reasons why triathletes would be a poor choice of coach: 1) Their event involves three disciplines, and the scores are not normalized, i.e. the swim does not count as much as the bike or run. By sheer dint of effort, and the fact they make most of their time on running and biking, they can get away with oh so many stroke discrepancies that would eat you alive in a 200m swim. 2) The swims they perform are at minimum 1000m, and often longer than that, a lot longer than that. This is a distance swim. In contrast, a 200m is at the upper end of a sprint. Totally different animal. And oh BTW, the swim is only part of their race, so they are training for races that take 2-3 hours, or 9-12 if they are iron manners, and you are training for a race that is less than 3 minutes. I say again, ACK! 3) These folks, as good as they are at what they do, are athletes, not coaches. Your world-class tri-guy is probably an excellent swimmer, who could kick my opinionated butt at any distance. But, he is also probably a natural who does not give to much thought to exactly how he does it, or what to tell someone else. His advice to just get to the point, however you get there, of being able to finish 50 meters, then we'll talk, suggests someone whose approach to training is more yards, always more yards. Fine for 3K races; it won't get you to your goal for a 200m. If you have video footage of yourself swimming, go straight to Emmett Hines' web site: www.h2oustonswims.org Hit the "Project VDO" link, and see if that make sense for you. Emmett is an outstanding coach, and a real stroke guru. He can fix you up. As far as turns are concerned, a good flip turn is an asset, but a lousy flip turn can be a big waste of effort. Please go to the discussion thread on this very web site that talk about a breaststroke turn or a butterfly turn (I can't remember which), that Wayne McCauley started. Even though the title is *** or fly, he is really talking about an open turn, which as Wayne pointed out, you can polish to the point where it is faster than most of the half-assed flip turns you see in mediocre swimmers (I include myself in this category). Best of all, it is ALOT easier to learn for a beginner than even the aforsaid half-assed flip turn. Good luck and keep us posted. Matt

RE: 200m Freestyle

Former Member — Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:43:09 GMT

Sandu, If I can, I'd like to expand on one of Rob's points. Please tell me again why you, a novice swimmer, cannot find time for regular swim coaching when you do have time to run 12 miles a day? Let's talk a bit about the pentathlon. It's a multi-discipline event. We have similar events in swimming; they're called individual medleys, where a swimmer does all four competitive strokes. The winner is usually not the person who holds the world record in one stroke. The winner is usually the person who is excellent to outstanding in each of the four strokes. The key for getting better is NOT squeezing the last fraction of a second out of your best stroke, it is making leaps and bounds improvements in your weakest stroke. Let's cut to your event. You already can run your goal time. Missing a few long runs probably will not change that. Consider spending some of that time on quality coaching to learn the fundamentals of your weaker event. Learning good, solid mechanics for the starts and turns can lop-off a second or to--for each length of the pool. It would probably take only a few sessions with a coach who really knows her craft, and best of all, it need not be physically taxing. If you need to recover from a long run, just schedule a swimming technique session. At any rate, good luck with your event. Please let us know how you do. Feel free to blow doors on the swim and make all of us self-proclaimed experts look like fools. I would proudly wear egg on my face in your behalf. Matt

RE: 200m Freestyle

Former Member — Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:10:07 GMT

Update... Thanks for all the great advice I've been getting. I continue to improve and I'm now in contact with a club coach. As a matter of fact, he took a look at my stroke today and we are working on correcting a few things. He pointed out my arms are too high up in the air, I do not roll enough on my sides and my kick is a bit erratic. I swam 5x50m and a 100m with my new improved technique. I'm not sure if I was over analyzing things but I didn't feel like I was swimming faster than before. My 50s ranged from 37 to 34 and my 100m was 1.20 with open turns. Flip turns are still a near-drowning-experience every time I take one past the first 25. How do you people hold your breath when you're already out of breath? I used to swim for a couple of years (*** stroke and IM) when I was a kid in my native Romania. But my last competition was in 1979! I'm 35 now, and after so many years of concentrating on running, swimming feels very hard. I'm sorry if in my previous posts I came across as a stubborn runner with complete disregard for the technical importance of this beautiful sport. I never meant that I was going to muscle my way through a 100m crawl. If anything, I'm very much aware and I'm praying that my improvment will eventually come from the technical side. I watched more swimming than track during the olympic coverage (maybe because I was bitter about not making the team myself) and world class swimmers look smooth and efficient more than they look fast and furious. After the advice I got today from the club coach, I came home and looked at a video I took of myself yesterday. I could see the problems and I'm anxious to work on them as soon as I start swimming tomorrow. I also have to say that I did get swimming lessons when I started training three months ago. I also swam and got advice from some superstar triathletes (between the two of them they had 11 world championship titles - one of them is my friend so I won't mention his name). The message I got from these people was " get your butt in the pool and swim; when you can swim more a couple of laps w/out stopping, then you start working on your technique!". I guess, now I can swim more than a couple of laps, but not very fast and time's up. My test is next week and the coach I saw today predicted I will be swimming about 2.40 but also that "I could surprise myself", especially after I taper from both swimming and running. We shall see! Matt S, the 10 -12 miles of running are done mostly on the trail behind my house or on the track across the street. The coach I saw today was an hour away. I may shop around for something closer and also less expensive. As far as my run is concerned, I can't afford to cut back at this point. I have to run 8.25/3k at 6000ft of altitude. They will give me an altitude adjustment of about 15 seconds. In pentathlon points that equivalent to about 1.55/200m probably. Now I've run 7.58 for 3k but at sea level, in the summer and with world class competition. You see what I'm saying? I'm already maxed out here and I can't cut back. Hopefully they won't make me run if I have to test again. This way I'll be able to have more time for swimming and driving around to get coaching advice. *I have footage of myself. I'd love to upload it somewhere where it can be viewed on the net, if anything like that exists. JPEGs can also be e-mailed if I'm not mistaken. Thanks again for all the great advice!

RE: 200m Freestyle

mattson — Fri, 18 Mar 2005 02:58:01 GMT

Originally posted by sandu I'm not sure if I was over analyzing things but I didn't feel like I was swimming faster than before. Depends what you mean. For me, I "feel" how fast I am going by the amount of water resistance I am generating. The problem with that is, with good technique you are reducing your water resistance. :) Don't be discouraged by the fact that you feel like you are not as fast, right now. That is probably true. An optimized "bad" stroke can be faster than a new "better" stroke. The key is that your new learning curve has the potential to be much faster than where you were a week ago.

RE: 200m Freestyle

Former Member — Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:53:41 GMT

Originally posted by geochuck . The last 25 any air you take in won't help so keep the body streamlined and don't worry too much about breathing. I like that! It's a bullseye!

RE: 200m Freestyle

Former Member — Wed, 16 Mar 2005 06:33:58 GMT

Sandu, Good advice above in terms of looking at "broken" swims with short rests as a measure of where you are. If you're doing 50 yard repeats at 33secs, you can probably link 4 of these together in a race for a 2:12. This converts to 2:30.8 for long-course meters. (You never said, but we're all assuming the competition pool is 50 meters) My advice in terms of pacing, think of a 200m like an 800m run. Try to split the 4 50s evenly. The first 50 you want to go long and strong, maximize dps (distance per stroke) Focus on streamlining your stroke, keep head in line with body, eyes focused down. Think of your kick as you would your arms in a run. First 50 (like first 200 of an 800) don't invest lots of energy here. Second 50 need to pick up your turnover. A little fatigue is starting so to keep pace you need to quicken your stroke pace. Third 50, you can feel it now. Don't tighten up--concentrate on relaxing, but maintaining high turnover and good power on each stroke. Maintain your breathing rhythm. You should bring the kick into it more (like your arms on the third 200 of an 800 run). This is the working 50. Last 50--bring it home. This is a race. Turnover is high, kick is strong. Don't leave anything in the pool. It should hurt (but will be over soon). Good luck!

RE: 200m Freestyle

Michael Heather — Wed, 16 Mar 2005 02:26:54 GMT

Sandu, I am going to break with all of the others somewhat and tell you that in the condition you are in, you should probably be able to meet your goal time. Concentration and focus are the key now, you only have to get through 200 meters to get experienced coaching, so don't get too excited on the first 50. And all races are won at the finish line, so don't use all your energy on the 3rd 50. Do not start out too fast on the first 50 (70% effort is plenty, make sure your strokes are long and breathing is regular and relaxed), and give every subsequent 50 15% more effort, so by the end you are going 115%. Okay, bad math, but you kow what I mean. And the time in the water is only going to be a couple minutes, so while you are swimming, keep running a checklist through your head: body position, head position, arms reaching, legs kicking, streamline from pushoffs. Mental preparation is very helpful, so visualize yourself going through the race in the days before the contest (make sure that your visualization includes looking at the clock at the finish and finding the time you want and expect). A good warmup will also help you get the most from your race. Don't be afraid to work hard for a few hundred meters up to 1/2 hour before your race. Try pace 50s, broken swims, and a few sprints at the end. These will all help your body know what to do as far as pacing, speed and effort in the race. Best of luck.

RE: 200m Freestyle

Rob Copeland — Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:44:06 GMT

Sandu, "How do I give it my best shot with what I got?" Find a very good coach and get some private lessons, quick. I say this because of two of your comments. One “I'm training on my own and I don't really know what I'm doing.” And two “I did have a few coaches take a look at my stroke and they did not point out fundamental mistakes in my stroke.” First, if you don’t really know what you are doing, get someone who does. And second every swimmer has some fundamental flaws in their strokes. Even Olympic champions like Phelps (US record holder in the 200 Free) are constantly working with their coaches to improve their strokes. If the coach you’ve talked to can’t find technical improvements in your stroke, find others who can. Check with the USMS LMSC chair or the USA-Swimming LSC chair.

RE: 200m Freestyle

Former Member — Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:38:02 GMT

Sandu, I like what the Guv says... Also Ande says he would like to see you swim faster in practice... I have always said if you want to swim fast in a race, you have to swim fast in training... So if you average 33 sec per 50 that gives you 2:12 for 200, I would not even worry about swimming 200's get your fiffties down with decreasig rest periods say 10 sec. down to 5 sec. and you will be surprised how easy a 200 can be. The last 25 any air you take in won't help so keep the body streamlined and don't worry too much about breathing. George www.swimdownhill.com

RE: 200m Freestyle

Former Member — Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:32:22 GMT

Sandu -- If you can do repeats of 200Y at 2:45 in practice, then you can probably get a little under 2:20 in a one-shot, give-it-your-all 200Y fully rested. (This, of course, is just my guess based on how it translates for me. Your mileage will vary!) But that's still yards, not meters, so you'll have to add approximately 10% to a yards time to get a meters time. That would put you under 2:40 or so for meters. So you're close if everything goes its very best. You still have more work to do to break 2:30. There is a thread in here about the advantages of a block start. If you have never done it before, I wouldn't recommend that you count on any advantage from a block start. It can give you an advantage, but it can also cost you if you do a lousy start. Coaching will help you get the basics pretty quickly. I wouldn't count on much help from the fastskin. It makes a difference at the elite levels, but that's not where you are. If you are proficient at flip turns, you can pick up time on each turn with a flip. But if you are not proficient, you will hurt your time trying. A good open turn will be your best bet. Besides, if you are doing this in a 50M pool, there will only be 3 turns, so I wouldn't put a whole lot of time into improving the turn. Just use a good open turn. (You mentioned "not pushing off the wall too hard". There is no such thing as too hard! This is a part of the swim where you momentarily are moving faster than at any other part of your swim. Get the most out of that. Learn to get the best glide. Push hard off the wall! Coaching will help you pick up the basics of a good glide pretty quickly. I'll recommend this -- keep your hands together, one palm over the top of the other hand, when you push off, and squeeze your ears with your biceps. It gives you a better streamline and you'll glide farther. Don't emulate Supeman with your hands apart and your head up!) The difference between a turbulent and smooth pool can be significant. This may be your ace in the hole. There are several threads on this board about pacing a 200. My philosophy is to go about 90+% on the first 50. Go all out on the middle 100, and then do whatever it takes to survive and bring it home on the last 50. If you are not in pain when you touch at the end, you didn't give it your all. Others have pointed out here that the 3rd 50 is key. It's where more people win or lose the 200. I can see the point. But keep in mind that this is all new ground for you. You've never raced a 200, I presume. You won't really know what it's like until you get there. So see if you can get yourself into some simulated 200 races with someone racing against you in the next lane. Know what the oxygen debt of that 3rd and 4th 50 feels like. Be ready for it! Having a coach and working out with a Masters team will help facilitate this. There are several large ones in the Denver area. Ditto Colorado Springs. PS: Where are they doing the test? Denver University? Olympic Training Center?

RE: 200m Freestyle

Former Member — Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:20:21 GMT

Sandu, Rob does tend to sound a little harsh, but his point is 'right on'. Your focus seems to be on "strength". This makes a great deal of sense coming from a runner. Technique isn't really all that important as a runner in relation to the speed and length of your legs. However, with swimming - strength isn't that important. What makes the fastest boat? Is it the most powerful engine that wins races? Answer: The shape of the hull, the and it's position in the water both have far greater impact on a boat's ability to win a race than the power of the engine. Which is faster: A wooden raft with a 200hp engine or a ski boat with a 200hp engine? You seem to be expressing that you'd like to modify the power which you're supplying to the water. You're hoping that power will increase your speed. Using that logic, how powerful of an engine would you need to put on the raft before it would be able to keep up with the ski boat? 300hp, 400hp? 2x400hp? All we know for sure is that it's going to take allot of power. In the end the raft never going to move nearly as well as the ski boat - it's the wrong shape. This exact principle applies to the human body as well. You can try to increase your power, but it's far more effective and far easier to improve your shape. So, you want to swim faster in a day, a week, a month or a year? My advise is the same: Learn how to be as streamlined as you can be (yes, you can improve in a day). Stroke power will come in time. If you're getting stronger and you're not streamlined you're a raft with a powerful engine... and not going to go very fast no matter how fast or hard you move your arms and legs.

RE: 200m Freestyle

aztimm — Tue, 15 Mar 2005 04:38:28 GMT

One of my coach's always tells us that one of the best ways to get your meet time is to do a 'broken' set. So for a 200, start, 10 seconds rest per 50, then subtract 30 seconds at the end. Do about 5 with a minute or so rest between each interval. After that, try a set broken on 25, with 5 seconds rest. See if your times are similar to that of the set broken on 50. You mentioned that when you got your time you were doing point turns. Do you know how to do flip turns? That alone can shave 2-3 seconds per turn. I learned flip turns pretty much on my own, but with the help of a lifeguard at a quiet pool, she was glad to be doing something. You may want to talk to others at the pool you're at and ask for help on flip turns and other things that can make you more effecient and faster. I have to agree with everyone else...for long-term gains in swimming, you are far better off swimming with a coached team. You may want to consider this even once or twice a week, get time with a coach, and practice what he/she tells you while you swim on your own.

RE: 200m Freestyle

Former Member — Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:43:57 GMT

If I were you I would work on 100's, 50's and 25's to increase your speed. It doesn't sound like you have lots of time before your test. I think you have to swim at the speed that is going to give you the end result that you desire. It also sounds like you are bilateral breathing I would breathe a little more often. Make your turns countpush off hard you can cut your time by as much as2 sec by pushing off with speed. George

RE: 200m Freestyle

Former Member — Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:03:28 GMT

Thanks guys! Your advice is important to me. It may be late as far as my fast approaching test but I will reevaluate if I fall short. The thing is, if I manage to get the 2400 score I will be rewarded with professional coaching at the OTC. It's a long shot and in a little more than a week I have to give it my best. Maybe I asked the wrong question at this point. Maybe I should be asking questions along the line of "how do I give it my best shot with what I got?" Strategy, pointers, greatly appreciated! When I swim my 33/1.12/2.43 type efforts in practice I'm at about 90% effort, I take open turns, not pushing off the wall too hard. I breath every third stroke and kick my legs continuously. My skinny runner arms are getting stronger but time is not on my side at this point. I have good pain tolerance and I'm ambitious. This is what I got. How do I tackle this thing mentaly, physically and strategicaly?

RE: 200m Freestyle

Former Member — Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:45:20 GMT

I think that the pool you discribed sounds a lot like the pool I swim in. My 200 time can be 25 to 30 seconds faster in a meet then it is in a workout. If there is anyone else swimming in the pool when I do my workout it creates waves like you would not beleive. I feel like I am in a wave pool. If you are swimming your competition in a much better pool then you may have the same results that I have. This could bring you down close to where you want to be. My pool is the slowest pool you can swim in. How long do you have before this competition?

RE: 200m Freestyle

Former Member — Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:23:51 GMT

Sandu, I agree with everything Rob Copeland said... but I'd like to emphasize: Running and swimming are not alike in one major area: Muscle effort does directly correlate to swimming speed. You can swim with all your might and actually swim slower then when you're relaxed and focused. You really should be focusing on how to swim fast using the least amount of effort. The water has allot of resistance and techniques as simple and keeping your head in line with your body, extending your arms fully, and keeping your kick tightly streamlined will make you go faster than swimming harder. Look at the top swimmers. It looks like they're gliding - that's your goal. That's how you want to be. Only the sprinters look like they're putting in effort from poolside. As a runner I know you want to move faster and harder. To be fast as a swimmer you need to move smarter. Water resistance is simply too great to fight. You can only gain a small amount of speed my pushing harder. It's not a question of 'muscle fatigue' vs. 'swimming time', as much as it is a question of muscle fatigue's effect on 'swimming technique' that should be your concern.

RE: 200m Freestyle

ande — Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:14:11 GMT

who's to say what is possible for you continue to train hard work on your turns find a full body suit What are you best 25, 50, 75, 100, 150 and 200 times in practice? you might want to do more race simulations in training warm up rest 15 minutes with easy drills then swim a fast 200 for time work to lower your time a 2:30 lcm is like a 2:15 or so for 200 yards I'd like to see you go faster in practice ande Originally posted by sandu I am a former distance runner and I'm trying to get into Modern Pentathlon. I have to swim a 200m Freestyle. I've been training for 3 months and I feel I've improved a lot. At first I couldn't do more than two 50yards without stopping. Now I can do 10x100yards in 1.17-1.18 with 30sec recovery. I also do 10X50 in 34-35 and 5x200 in 2.45-2.48. All this in a turbulent, filthy 25 yard pool! I'm training on my own and I don't really know what I'm doing. I have a test in ten days consisting of a 200m freestyle and a 3000m run and I have to have a total score of 2400 points. While my run is strong enough to get me 1400 points (I represented the US at 2 world championships), I have to swim at least a 2.30 for my 200 m to get the remaining 1000 points. I don't know what to expect! I don't know how I should pace myself through the 1st 50, how I'm supposed to feel on the 2nd, 3rd 50 etc. Based on my workouts, can anyone predict how fast I can swim a 200m in an Olympic size pool? The best I've done is 2.43 on my last interval in a 200 yards Is 2.30 for 200 meters a legitimate target considering I'd be using a starting block, fast skin half suit and I'd be swimming in a real competition pool?

RE: 200m Freestyle

mattson — Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:08:47 GMT

Originally posted by sandu I breath every third stroke and kick my legs continuously. Be careful that you don't kick so hard that it wears you out. With good swim technique (including balance on the water), you can cruise along with almost no kicking at all. (And then turn on the kick when you need that little extra...)

RE: 200m Freestyle

Former Member — Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:58:35 GMT

I'd say your chances of going sub 2:30 are slim but possible. 30 seconds is a pretty long interval. I typically go 1:10 - 1:15 with 15-20 seconds rest and 1:05-1:10 with more rest. My 200 yd free is 2:10, which would be about 2:23ish (using a 1.1 conversion) for meters. Depending on your ability to push through pain, you could make it, but I'm betting you end up more like 2:35-2:40. Ask Karen Dugan for a time estimate, she nailed the estimate for me for my 400 IM.