Side-breathing for fly

RE: Side-breathing for fly

Former Member — Tue, 31 May 2005 05:02:56 GMT

Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com I really think that people who sit at their desk all day, owe it to themselves to do something to make sure that their shoulders aaren't hunched over infront of their computer screens all day. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone was in a position to afford not to. Sounds like you're saying that if for some reason, which is often out of their control, they can't set their weorkspace perfectly ergonomically it's somehow their character flaw. I had to fight with a former employer for a year and a half to get my workstation changed around so I wouldn't have to go to a chiropractor 2-3 times a week due to getting all tweaked. Sure, the employer listened, and said they will, and due to renovations dragged their feet with doing anything about it, after getting a letter or two from a chiropractor, they still dragged their feet, because during renovations some adjustments that I asked for were supposedly undue hardship, because if they do this and that for me, they'll be obligated to make the workstation for the other 300 employees ergonomically correct as well. I know that the example I gave you is not all that unique. I know, I owed it to myself to quit working.. :rolleyes:

RE: Side-breathing for fly

jswim — Tue, 31 May 2005 03:21:03 GMT

Originally posted by Conniekat8 Wouldn't it be nice if everyone was in a position to afford not to. Sounds like you're saying that if for some reason, which is often out of their control, they can't set their weorkspace perfectly ergonomically it's somehow their character flaw. I had to fight with a former employer for a year and a half to get my workstation changed around so I wouldn't have to go to a chiropractor 2-3 times a week due to getting all tweaked. I know that the example I gave you is not all that unique. I know, I owed it to myself to quit working.. :rolleyes: lol! Connie, I know exactly what you mean! I've been going to a chiropractor for a neck issue (nothing to do with work), but started asking him during my visits to straighten out my lower back due to my seating at work. The chairs they give us encourage slouching, that is to say, they're more difficult to sit straight in than to just go ahead and slouch. after 8 or so hours of sitting there involved in your work or eh hem.. discussion forums, I'd realize how I was sitting and try and make a conscious effort to change it, but to no avail.... Finally I got another chair, but in order to get an ergonomic chair I have to bring in a note from the doctor about a pre-existing condition etc... and who knows how long it will take after that to get a good chair in here!.... Obviously sitting straight is prefferred, but it's not a conscious thing for some people, and sometimes you're fighting more than just an awareness of yourself. I've never tried side breathing, but a girl at practice does it, and she's got a pretty good fly (from what I can tell), but who am I right?.. lol.. anyway, I have studied her a bit and haven't noticed her shoulders crooked, or her hands entering a different times, it looks pretty solid and smooth.. I am still learning my fly correctly, and when I first started changing my stroke, I noticed I couldn't get my face out of the water enough to breathe without changing my head position and looking up.. (my coach said I looked like a hood ornament! lol). anyway, I thought of using side breathing just until I got the rest of my form corrected so that I wouldn't be inhaling a bunch of water anymore.. I have since got the hang of the new stroke and won't be side breathing, but just thought it might be an idea for a transition if anyone else had trouble breathing at first..

RE: Side-breathing for fly

Former Member — Mon, 30 May 2005 12:24:54 GMT

Originally posted by DAP Thanks for the pointers. I'll give the butterfly drill a try. It may take some time to get the undulating body motion of the kick right. Maybe belly dancing lessons would work. ;) I've always thought that fly is more about strength than technique. If you are able to get your upper body completely out of the water with one strong stroke, then I would say the technique is all you need to learn, but if not, then getting stronger will natually make fly easier to perfect. Doing one fly pull and having your arms re-enter the water will naturally put you in an undulating type of motion. As kids, I'll never forget what our coach always told us about doing fly-- to think of it as being a snake crawling over barrels. :D

RE: Side-breathing for fly

Michael Heather — Mon, 30 May 2005 05:55:47 GMT

Side breathing is silly and really a waste of energy and time! Peole who promote it are doing a disservice to those they are telling to do it. The only disservice is those who ignore, in the name of conformity, the real benefits that side breathing may have for even a few swimmers I have not yet seen in this thread anyone promote side breathing over any other form. The thread was started by someone who was asking, in essence, how many other people were like him. A reaction like the one above is only counterproductive.

RE: Side-breathing for fly

Former Member — Tue, 24 May 2005 07:24:52 GMT

Originally posted by poolmonkey And thanks to Craig for bringing up those points. With Butterfly, I found that what works best is to kick. The more I work on my butterfly kick, the better my butterfly is. And I hate kicking. But my favorite events are the 100 and 200 fly. www.swimfasterfaster.com D I really think that people who sit at their desk all day, owe it to themselves to do something to make sure that their shoulders aaren't hunched over infront of their computer screens all day. Kicking hard and firm will also make it so that side breathing is useless. I noticed this mornign that when some one side-breathes, they aren't kicking as they should.

RE: Side-breathing for fly

Former Member — Tue, 24 May 2005 07:09:32 GMT

Special thanks to Dima. The clips on the site were great to watch, but they did take a while to download. And thanks to Craig for bringing up those points. I recall trying to breath to the side when Mel Stewart won gold, but it didn't work too well for me. I've also tried it on Breaststroke, but it didn't seem to help much either. With Butterfly, I found that what works best is to kick. The more I work on my butterfly kick, the better my butterfly is. And I hate kicking. But my favorite events are the 100 and 200 fly. I notice that when I get tired I bring my whole body way out of the water trying to breath and I'm just killing myself by acting like a big anchor. Staying close to the water whether you breathe to the side or straight ahead is key. If you want to swim faster, read Ande's stuff: www.swimfasterfaster.com There's no silver bullet... ...and unfortunately there's no substitute for work. Thanks for the thread. :D

RE: Side-breathing for fly

jswim — Tue, 24 May 2005 03:08:35 GMT

RE: Side-breathing for fly

Former Member — Mon, 23 May 2005 16:02:36 GMT

Originally posted by Conniekat8 That rotation seems to be very dependent on their side breathing skills. Some people do have a tendency to tweak their whole body, others have learned not to. This side-tweaking I've seen mainly with beginners who are yet to get little more skilled in the finer points of keeping your body balancd and coordinated while swimming. Another thing that I noticed that for people who tend to have slightly forward rounded shoulders, they have to lift their head out of the water less to side breathe. Seems like it's mainky because their rounded posture makes it for a longer way out of the water to forward breathe. It's not just the matter of lifting your head out of the water, but you have to straighten your back and shoulders during the stroke phase where it's more natural for them to be moving down and forward. For someone with more rounded shoulders, this (lifting up) is not onky the longer path of travel, but it takes mroe efforts, not just moving your head bit extra work for your arms and shoulders. If your shoulders aren't naturally rounded forward, then it may be shorter and easier to just tilt your head up a bit to get air, since it's most likely already closer to the surface when compared to someone with rounded shouders. Those are just things I've observed happening in the clinics we teach, where I have been noticing that people with more forward rounded shoulders gave easier time breathing on the side. I think like a lot of little things in swimming, it boils down to one's body style. People who have forward rounded shoulders should do everything they can to develop the muscles that are causing them to be rounded. Always if a swimmer has rounded shoulders it is besause hteire pecs are pulling their shoulders forward because they all over-developed or becasue their back muclesare over-developed and pushing the shoulders forward. this is not a natural outcome. It should be avoided. Side breathing is silly and really a waste of energy and time! Peole who promote it are doing a disservice to those they are telling to do it.

RE: Side-breathing for fly

Former Member — Mon, 23 May 2005 15:29:47 GMT

Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com His comments are on p 167-168. 1) The range of motion of the neck is very limitted. therefore, the side-breathers must lift their heads further out of the water than forward breathers. The next paragraph he says that might be okay. 2) Side-breathers rotate their body to the side they are breathing on. When I watch side-breathers, I notice that they tend to break the flow of their stroke for an extremely limited time. It is enough to cause drag though. They all tend to recover their arms & hands unevenly. It seems to me that they are beeaking some of the forward motion they have created. That rotation seems to be very dependent on their side breathing skills. Some people do have a tendency to tweak their whole body, others have learned not to. This side-tweaking I've seen mainly with beginners who are yet to get little more skilled in the finer points of keeping your body balancd and coordinated while swimming. Another thing that I noticed that for people who tend to have slightly forward rounded shoulders, they have to lift their head out of the water less to side breathe. Seems like it's mainky because their rounded posture makes it for a longer way out of the water to forward breathe. It's not just the matter of lifting your head out of the water, but you have to straighten your back and shoulders during the stroke phase where it's more natural for them to be moving down and forward. For someone with more rounded shoulders, this (lifting up) is not onky the longer path of travel, but it takes mroe efforts, not just moving your head bit extra work for your arms and shoulders. If your shoulders aren't naturally rounded forward, then it may be shorter and easier to just tilt your head up a bit to get air, since it's most likely already closer to the surface when compared to someone with rounded shouders. Those are just things I've observed happening in the clinics we teach, where I have been noticing that people with more forward rounded shoulders gave easier time breathing on the side. I think like a lot of little things in swimming, it boils down to one's body style.

RE: Side-breathing for fly

nkace — Mon, 23 May 2005 11:39:17 GMT

Why do people find suck difficulty in butterfly? I know it's hard but I find *** to be more difficult to do properly. Butterfly takes more endurance I think.

RE: Side-breathing for fly

Former Member — Mon, 23 May 2005 05:48:13 GMT

Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com People who have forward rounded shoulders should do everything they can to develop the muscles that are causing them to be rounded. Always if a swimmer has rounded shoulders it is besause hteire pecs are pulling their shoulders forward because they all over-developed or becasue their back muclesare over-developed and pushing the shoulders forward. this is not a natural outcome. Maybe, in cases where you're talking about kids and young adults whse bodies, and bones are still pliable to some degree. With an adult where postural round shoulders have resulted in cervical khyphosis, there isn't much you can do to correct their 'round shoulders' other than send them for an elective spinal surgery. Many adults that have spent most of their adult life at desk jobs have a certain degree of cervical khyphosis that is no longer correctable by excercise and muscle strengthening. Instead of just postural khyphosis, it starts turning into a degenerative khyphosos (wear and tear of the spine), where the muscular imbalances have already permanently affected the spine. Sure, with a 9 or a 10 year old or a teenager where permanent damage hadn't occured yet, you'd send them to a doctor and have them do corrective exercises for posture. With an adult, the amount you can 'change' their body is very limited. You end up having to change the technique to adapt to the body. Mny of the reputable coaches that I know in this area will recommend side breathing in those cases, and resulting in more efficient and more comfortable stroke - for adults.

RE: Side-breathing for fly

tjrpatt — Sun, 22 May 2005 10:10:19 GMT

I am a flyer and I never really liked side breathing. But hey, it got Melvin Stewart a gold medal in the 200 fly and a beer commerical where she is swimming with some chick and then they have a beer after their swim. I am still having issues breathing every stroke on fly but breathing every side is alot more comfortable than breathing to the side.

RE: Side-breathing for fly

Former Member — Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:34:32 GMT

I have always breathed to the side, no problems. One thing I have noticed, on a personal level, is that the muscle groups I use to breath on the side are more neck and back rather than the chest for "regular breathing". Might have something to do with it... OK more elaboration... When someone swims, there are groups of "core" or "lead" muscles that are used --chest (pectorialis majors/minors) thighs, abdominals etc. Theses muscle groups are a bit different for each stroke or part of the stroke process (just note as you are swimming that, fly for example, is a big user of chest/abdominals, while backstroke is the lats/side abdominals, free is a big user of the pecs, and *** uses pecs/thighs etc...). In most of the swimming the majority of the muscle groups are in the chest while the muscles groups of the back are in a supportive role -generalization here. I had to learn to swim using different muscle groups due to some pretty significant muscular/skeleton birth defects, so I tend to "substitute" major muscle groups for the supportive muscle groups. Translation, the muscles in my back/abdominals and legs are well developed to compensate for the birth defects in my pecs. When I turn my head to the side to breath, I am using more muscles from the back than the chest. We all can or tend to substitute muscle groups when we learn to perfect our stroke or continue to swim with injury. Pretty long explanation hua?

RE: Side-breathing for fly

Former Member — Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:48:13 GMT

Originally posted by Alicat I have always breathed to the side, no problems. One thing I have noticed on a personal level is that the muscle groups I use to breath on the side are more neck and back rather than the chest for "regular breathing". Might have something to do with it Can you elaborate on this?

RE: Side-breathing for fly

Former Member — Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:47:23 GMT

Originally posted by DAP Thanks for the pointers. I'll give the butterfly drill a try. It may take some time to get the undulating body motion of the kick right. Maybe belly dancing lessons would work. ;) My favorite drill for getting the undalation right is head-lead body dolphin. Push off the wall with your hands at your sides. Then start pulsing your chest. A way to make sure this happens is to lead with your head. The way I learned was to pretend that you are pushing a peanut along the floor with your nose. I find that by doing that, your whole body will follow that same wave motion. I hope that makes sense.:rolleyes: You don't go anywhere very fast when you first start doing this, so fins are sometimes a good idea...they also help to get your body to roll, IMO. ~Kyra

RE: Side-breathing for fly

Former Member — Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:29:43 GMT

Thanks for the pointers. I'll give the butterfly drill a try. It may take some time to get the undulating body motion of the kick right. Maybe belly dancing lessons would work. ;)

RE: Side-breathing for fly

Former Member — Sun, 13 Feb 2005 06:20:37 GMT

Originally posted by DAP Same here. I have attempted fly a couple times, but I haven't quite figured out dolphin kicking. I know what I'm supposed to do, but I can't get the coordination right. Occasionally, I get a couple good cycles in and actually get some propulsion, but most of the time I'm dead in the water, and I look like I'm using the Ab-o-cizer. It's embarrassing when other people are around. So breathing style during the fly is the least of my concerns right now; but I'll watch this thread so when the time comes, I'll know how I should try to breathe. When I swam age group swimming, I started out swimming fly with only one kick per stroke which my coaches quickly told me was one kick too few. They drug me in the pool after workout and taught me the two kick beat in a way I found worked. Here is what I was taught. Maybe it will work for you: Push off the wall and glide holding your arms out in front and dolphin kick twice. Then pull your arms through one full stroke. Then holding your arms out in front (by the thumbs for example), kick two dolphin kicks. Then pull through. As you continue this drill, your arms eventually begin releasing into a stroke while you are completing your second kick. Eventually, the timing of the two kicks and one stroke develop. It worked for me and I developed a respectable butterfly. As I have grown older (40 now) the timing is still there. THe strength in my abs and shoulders and lungs needs continuour work, though. I have found that practicing the upbeat of my kick really propels my upper torso out of the water. I also have found that if my kick is strong, my arms and shoulders remain fresh longer. Good luck. Hope this helps.

RE: Side-breathing for fly

Former Member — Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:13:17 GMT

Originally posted by kernow I wish I knew how to do fly; I'm still working on the kick! Same here. I have attempted fly a couple times, but I haven't quite figured out dolphin kicking. I know what I'm supposed to do, but I can't get the coordination right. Occasionally, I get a couple good cycles in and actually get some propulsion, but most of the time I'm dead in the water, and I look like I'm using the Ab-o-cizer. It's embarrassing when other people are around. So breathing style during the fly is the least of my concerns right now; but I'll watch this thread so when the time comes, I'll know how I should try to breathe.

RE: Side-breathing for fly

h2osmiley — Sat, 12 Feb 2005 07:19:59 GMT

I think that I've tried to turn my head to the side to breathe a few times when the side breathing thing became bid...didn't particularly like it too much. I wasn't able to keep myself going straight....tangling with the lane line isn't fun! ;)

RE: Side-breathing for fly

Former Member — Sat, 12 Feb 2005 07:10:52 GMT

I wish I knew how to do fly; I'm still working on the kick!

RE: Side-breathing for fly

Former Member — Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:29:11 GMT

Where I swim, there is a very heavy set boy who side breaths. His stroke doesn't seem to be any different than anyone else's stroke except for the head motion. When I've tried it, it has seemed very ackward. Maglischo does not recommend it. Also, frequently, I have enpough problems doing fly!!!!!!!!

RE: Side-breathing for fly

Former Member — Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:13:26 GMT

I have never tried side breathing fly. It just seems like it would feel unnatural. Of course, my fly is about as unnatural as it comes anyway.:( It has been compared to those speed boat wrecks where water and parts go flying all over the place.:rolleyes:

RE: Side-breathing for fly

Former Member — Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:17:33 GMT

His comments are on p 167-168. 1) The range of motion of the neck is very limitted. therefore, the side-breathers must lift their heads further out of the water than forward breathers. The next paragraph he says that might be okay. 2) Side-breathers rotate their body to the side they are breathing on. When I watch side-breathers, I notice that they tend to break the flow of their stroke for an extremely limited time. It is enough to cause drag though. They all tend to recover their arms & hands unevenly. It seems to me that they are beeaking some of the forward motion they have created.

RE: Side-breathing for fly

Former Member — Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:06:43 GMT

Originally posted by LindsayNB I remember that Swimming Fastest had a couple reasons why side breathing should not be encouraged but I don't remember what they were anymore, perhaps someone with a copy will look them up and post. I would look it up but my copy is now being used as a doorstop, so I can't. :D

RE: Side-breathing for fly

Former Member — Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:10:27 GMT

I must be weird then because after I started doing it more, then I thought it felt more natural to breathe to the side. Like I said before, I am actually seeing improvment in my stroke. I feel like it helps get my body waving better because I can see my head moving in relation to the lane lines and if they seem to be going just up and down then I know to put my into it. I also keep my head to the side the whole time...I tried breathing to the side and then putting back down, but that just made me dizzy. ~Kyra