Strokes and Heredity

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Karen Duggan — Sat, 23 Apr 2005 10:37:24 GMT

Thanks Wayne. I'll check it out later when the "chillins" are a sleepin' :p

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Former Member — Sat, 23 Apr 2005 07:03:28 GMT

Karen, Dominico is not the best to copy. What he did well was stay underwater for 0.8 to 0.9 seconds out of every stroke. Do you have VirtualDub program? Do a Google search and download it. Then download jpegs of Amanda Beard and Kitijama. View them in slow motion backwards and forwards. The hands should be extended between 2 inches and 6 inches below the waters surface. From there you can either do a pull or a outwards scull. Remember body ballance. Anything you do in one direction will affect the other end of the body. That is why for every inch you raise your head, your hips will sink 2 inches. Same for extending your hands too deep, you break the streamline.

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Karen Duggan — Fri, 22 Apr 2005 04:15:17 GMT

Wayne, I just went to your website and it was helpful. I think I'll try more of the glide. I looked at your powerpoint from an ASCA presentation and now have another question: I'm now being told to keep my hands near the surface, but it appeared with Dominico that his hands go way under the surface? Is this camera angle? His hands look a good 18 in under. I'm being told no more than 6 inches. I think that gliding more will help me because of my kick. I do have that feel that when gliding I go a little further (I feel it in my hips) maybe than the "average bear". Are you going to Nationals? I'd love for you to help me in that hour :)

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Former Member — Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:41:38 GMT

sorry, quoted instead of edited. please delete. thanks

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Former Member — Tue, 19 Apr 2005 09:11:19 GMT

I remember reading that Amanda Beard was a weak breaststroker when she was younger and a great flyer. Her coach at that point made her work on breaststroke a lot - and well the rest is history.

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Former Member — Tue, 19 Apr 2005 09:10:52 GMT

Karen, I have been to clinics by Roque and other great wave style breaststrokers. They have great drills, but that is basically the only style of stroke they have known. The hard part is learning the wave style when you were a flat style heads up breaststroker. I had several drills I used for many years, but this "Cobra Drill", and pressing a dozen kick boards under the chest never worked for me. But when the Terry Laughlin video on short axis strokes came out, I quickly adopted several of his drills. The hand lead body dolphin drill is now the basis of all my clinics. I can usually have people swimming a good wave style breaststroke in one hour:D Head position and hip position are the most important things you can work on. Many of the drills just did not work for me, I am one of those breaststrokers who can't do backstroke nor a great freestyle. So I take what works and made some a little better. With good technique there is Zero reasons you can't go faster than that 1:09 and 2:29. Just look at Amanda Beards style, as Ande says, ride the glide. All good breaststrokers have great kicks, practice kicking two kicks underwater and one up to breathe. Count those kicks and make them work for you. Do the one and the two second drills. Read my article "What went wrong with the wave style breaststroke"

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Former Member — Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:57:09 GMT

Every one can make sooooo many changes in their strokes. It even seems that some of the changes don't work and if you listen too many coaches who all have differant theories we get into trouble. Sometimes it is better to get back to basics and only make minor changes. Sometimes the major changes do not help and only confuse... I would say get back to the stroke you took for granted and just tweek it a bit. George

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Karen Duggan — Tue, 19 Apr 2005 05:32:09 GMT

Wayne, Thanks. I'd love to hear more about those drills. Perhaps tonight I'll check 'em out on-line. You're right. I did try the backtobasics thing. I even went back to my old age group coach! The frustrating thing for me is that I don't remember HOW my old stroke was!!!!!!!!! I have no feel whatsoever. I looked for old videos at home from champs. and Nationals and haven't found them yet. I'll keep looking :) Roque does make it look easy... he's a little older than me, so are you sure he never did the flat? I'll ask him. He's been a little busy too with daughter and new baby due next month! Thanks for your encouragement. :)

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Karen Duggan — Tue, 19 Apr 2005 05:32:07 GMT

RE: Strokes and Heredity

ande — Tue, 19 Apr 2005 04:27:48 GMT

part of it is heredity some people are just naturally better at particular strokes than than others but a huge part of breastroke is technique and timing, another part comes from hard breastroke training. I'm sure if your daughter improved her breastroke technique and trained more breastroke her times and ability would improve. Maybe remarkably. If she wants to be an good IMer I'm sure if you had a breastroke expert observe her, he could tell your daughter what she needed to correct to swim breastroke right. If she really wants to improve, she might benefit from watching videos of great breastrokers. Read Waynes articles, he's broken breastroke down to a science. http://www.breaststroke.info/ This past season I concentrated on improving my breastroke and made some great strides. I figured I could make bigger improvements in my 200 IM concentrating on my weakness (breastroke) rather than on my strengths (fly, back and free) Good luck, Ande Originally posted by SWinkleblech After the I.M. thread and watching my daughter at her meet I got to wondering if being good at certain strokes has anything to do with heredity. If you read the I.M. thread you know that I am terrible at the breaststroke. Today my daughter had to do the 100 I.M. She was second after the fly and doing the backstroke. She had at least a 1/4 of a pool length on the two swimmers behind her. All the parents around me were commenting on how good she looked. I told them to wait and see what happens on the breaststroke. What do you know the two swimmers behind her caught her and past her on the breaststroke. She dropped down to fourth place. Is she destined to be a terrible breaststroker like me? Keep in mind that she has always done lessons at the Y and not with me.

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Karen Duggan — Tue, 19 Apr 2005 03:41:47 GMT

I really hate breaststroke now. I used to have a decent 50 (31.8 good start!); 100 (1:09); and 200 (2:29) and now I can barely break 2:40. Granted, my body has changed with 3 kids in the last 5 years but COME ON! My stroke is pathetic. Coaches offer advice, I do it, then something else comes up. I had Roque (Santos) try and teach me the wave stroke and that made everything worse. During any given race you will see any one of 10 variations of the WRONG stroke. It's so frustrating!!! Lately, I've been working on snapping my kick (my kick WAS really strong-I would've contended for me more than 65% of my stroke) and doing a quick recovery into the next stroke. And on my pushoffs, video shows, I go down towards the bottom off the wall. That was a relatively easy fix today as Mike (Heaney) said to just lift my chin a little bit- that worked :) I definitely took my breaststroke for granted, and now that I don't have it I really miss it :p (sniff sniff) I now have hope that one day it will come back as I get glimmers here and there. I can't wait for that day!

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Former Member — Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:50:19 GMT

OK Wayne, this morning I really, really focused on my pushoff/pulldown. I streamlined with my arms behind my ears, hand over hand, thumb wrapped around the other hand, etc. And guess what - it worked.:) I was easily going two yards further than I was earlier this week. I still need to make the transition to the stroke smoother, but the first time I came up I couldn't believe how much further I was.:eek: I also think I can go further - I need to work on the lung capacity. I also just started some weight training a couple of times a week and I think the leg press will make my push off stronger. And if I could drop a few more pounds:rolleyes:, I would lose this gut that hangs down in a not so streamlined fashion. I was at 10+ yards today and I think with practice I can get another yard or two!:D Now for a question. When I'm in the stroke itself, and I recover/extend my arms and kick, should I be getting into the same streamline? I am guessing yes, but that's a lot tougher than doing it off the wall. I will definately need to work on that.:rolleyes:

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Former Member — Wed, 09 Feb 2005 11:49:24 GMT

....Well, that brings up another important difference between butterfly and breaststroke: In butterfly, you recover your arms over the water; in breaststroke, you have to recover them under the water. Again, part of your body is moving contrary to the flow of the water moving past you. Because of this, you can do a great pulldown and then lose all of your momentum when you recover your arms forward. And the same thing can happen with your arm stroke. That kills me too. I feel like I have a decent pull down. I come off a wall and pass freestylers in the lane next to me when we were even at the wall. Then, I recover my hands to start my first stroke and its like slamming on the brakes.:( :mad:

RE: Strokes and Heredity

susanehr — Wed, 09 Feb 2005 10:00:04 GMT

My sister and I are both backstrokers...we are quite a bit different in height, but body type is the same.

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Former Member — Wed, 09 Feb 2005 08:47:49 GMT

Originally posted by breastroker Shameless plug, look at my articles at www.breaststroke.info. Practice same. Practice more Race Smile:D Maybe I'll practice until I can beat you!:cool:

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Former Member — Wed, 09 Feb 2005 08:35:55 GMT

Shameless plug, look at my articles at www.breaststroke.info. Practice same. Practice more Race Smile:D

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Former Member — Wed, 09 Feb 2005 08:34:40 GMT

Wings and beer, I will catch a flight now. It is the little things that make for good breaststroke. Like how you hold your streamline, how you place your hands during the streamline, where your arms are in relation to your ears. The modern streamline is worth at least one yard, for free each and every length. The arms are behind the ears, back behind the head. The hands are NOT side by side and are not one on top of the other. Something simple like locking the thump of the top hand over the other hand can be worth several feet distance:D How deep you push off can make a huge difference, if there is any ripple at the surface, you are loosing several potential feet of distance. The bigger you are the deaper you have to go.

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Former Member — Wed, 09 Feb 2005 08:21:30 GMT

Originally posted by Phil Arcuni In order to not be disruptive to my lane, I often do a butterfly kick during breaststroke -- that way I can keep up. Oddly enough, good breaststrokers don't understand how I can go faster with the butterfly kick, and I can't understand how it could be any other way. I can understand it. There are two main differences between the breaststroke kick and the butterfly kick: 1) The breaststroke kick has a recovery; the butterfly kick doesn't. In butterfly, your legs just go up and down. In breaststroke, you have to bring your feet forward, against the flow of the water moving past you. If you don't do this recovery properly, it can bring you to a grinding halt. 2) The main propulsive part of the breaststroke kick is what I like to call the "paddle kick", in which you use the sides of your ankles as paddles. If you can do this properly, it can be very powerful because your "paddles" have a lot of surface area. But to do it properly, you have to be able to point your toes literally in opposite directions (i.e., toward the side walls). Because of this, people who can easily point their toes in opposite directions have a decided advantage in breaststroke. Personally, I can't. If I stand with my heels together and spread my toes as far apart as possible, I have to really strain to get them past 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock, and can't get them anywhere near 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock. As a result, when I do the paddle kick, it's like trying to paddle a boat with the paddle turned at an angle. I think my pulldowns are pretty good. I come out well past the flags, and when swimming breaststroke in practice I am usually ahead 1/3 of the way from the first push off. It does not last. Well, that brings up another important difference between butterfly and breaststroke: In butterfly, you recover your arms over the water; in breaststroke, you have to recover them under the water. Again, part of your body is moving contrary to the flow of the water moving past you. Because of this, you can do a great pulldown and then lose all of your momentum when you recover your arms forward. And the same thing can happen with your arm stroke.

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Former Member — Wed, 09 Feb 2005 08:19:35 GMT

I said well past the flags. My head probably comes out 10 yards from the wall, usually. If I try for distance I can easily go past midway of a 25 yard pool. If I glide to a stop, and don't do the pulldown, I am past midway, also. As Wayne described the stroke, the breath occurs after the start of the first stroke, not before the start of the stroke, and not on the second. That is the usual way. Not breathing until the second stroke is non-typical even amoung olympic swimmers, but I imagine it could be effective. You have to be sure your head breaks the surface before the end of the first pull, however.

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Former Member — Wed, 09 Feb 2005 07:49:21 GMT

Hmmmmmm... let me think about it. I definately breathe on the first stroke. I need to work on that. I guess I do it because I always feel like I am desparate for air at that point. I probably just need to force myself to hold it for another stroke. In time, it should become easier. I paced it off one time, and it was about 8-9 yards where I came up for the first breath. Maybe I'm not getting everything I can out of my pushoff. Maybe I pull down too soon and then start to stroke too soon. One problem I have is that after the start and then the first turn, I can no longer pull down and get an effective kick before breaking the surface - I am just gassed and need a breath. And of course "effective kick" is relative for me. I don't have an explosive kick at all. More like a fire cracker as opposed to a stick of dynamite. Unfortunately, I am self coached - which is an oxymoron. Wayne, if you are ever in the Philly area, I'd love to have just one workout worth of tips. I'll buy the wings and beer afterwards!:)

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Former Member — Wed, 09 Feb 2005 06:43:46 GMT

Good or not, all my coaches have tried. My other three strokes are pretty solid (top ten times in all three, though the freestyle ones are marginal) so the desire to add IM to my event list has always been attractive. But I remember one 200 LC IM I swam, ahead by ten meters after the backstroke, and watched the whole field pass me before the next wall . . . I don't think I take breaststroke coaching very well, however. In order to not be disruptive to my lane, I often do a butterfly kick during breaststroke -- that way I can keep up. Oddly enough, good breaststrokers don't understand how I can go faster with the butterfly kick, and I can't understand how it could be any other way. I tried to follow Wayne's kick advice that he has given in other threads, but my coach saw me and told me to get my feet out more: "it looks like you are doing a bent-knee butterfly kick with your toes pointed out." I think my pulldowns are pretty good. I come out well past the flags, and when swimming breaststroke in practice I am usually ahead 1/3 of the way from the first push off. It does not last. A couple of days ago I did a set where, if I could break 40 seconds for a 50 ***, I could stop swimming *** (that is great motivation!) I couldn't get close, and swam all ten fifties ***. *not* a good way to start the day :rolleyes:

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Former Member — Wed, 09 Feb 2005 06:26:14 GMT

Something tells me you guys need help. When you say you get to the flags, that is not very far:rolleyes: The lane lines are 5 meters out from the wall, usually the lane lines are the same distance. The latest rules 107.13.2 specify 5 meters! Most male breaststrokers in the Olympics cover 10-12 meters off each wall. Remember the first 2 to 3 seconds you will never swim as fast as you push off the wall. You should be near 6-7 meters before the pulldown even starts. In our old pool, there is a line down the center distance at 12.5 yards. When I am having an especially good day I can reach that line at about 3.5 seconds and then beging the pulldown and kick to the surface. Scansy and others, do you breathe the first stroke up? MOst non breaststrokers kick to the surface, take a BIG breath, and then begin the stroke with the pull, kick and glide. Breaststrokers will begin the pull outwards scull before the head breaks the waters surface. We then pull very hard to lift our head to get that first breath and start the stroke. Breathing before the start of the pull will slow you down between one and two seconds per length. Now if you read my articles on my web site, I want my swimmers to not breathe at all on the first stroke up. You can gain a half second by not breathing, there is plenty of time to breath on the second stroke up:D

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Former Member — Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:59:41 GMT

I am just as bad as other writers, I have said " 90% of the power from the kick comes from the last 6-8 inches!" How's that for generalization. I deal in theoretical ideals, what would be the perfect stroke etc. Ideally 90% of the power would come from the ankle snap! Matthias, kick breaststroke on your back, if your knees are coming out of the water at all, then concentrate on pulling the heels to your butt. Also spread the knees apart some.

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Former Member — Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:39:20 GMT

Originally posted by breastroker Do your knees extend down and stop you dead in the water? Yes, they do! What could I do to keep them from slowing my down? ;) Brgds Matthias

RE: Strokes and Heredity

Former Member — Tue, 08 Feb 2005 16:59:22 GMT

Originally posted by LindsayNB i.e. at most 65% of the power comes from the kick or between 0% and 65% of the power comes from the kick. Sorry, I couldn't help myself, "up to X%" is a pet peeve of mine. I did not mean what I think you believe me to mean. When I have read articles and books on *** stroke or listened to coaches, they generally state that they believe most power comes from the kick. Individual, different coahes have stated that the power can be up to 65%. Some coahes say less than 65%, some say 65%. I didn't mean anywhere from 0% to 65%. Sorry if I was not clear enough.