Beard DQ at WC

RE: Beard DQ at WC

Former Member — Sat, 16 Oct 2004 16:51:13 GMT

Something just hit me! There are great differences between FINA/USMS & high school & NCAA. Why? No wonder peole get DQ'ed for what seems like minor faults. the guy who looks at my strokes is a judge for high schools. He is very strict about form. Does he have to be?

RE: Beard DQ at WC

Former Member — Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:51:32 GMT

Originally posted by Bob McAdams As for why the NCAA rules are different - well, you'd have to ask NCAA! When USS, USMS, and FINA are all in agreement about the rules, it's hard to see why anyone running swim meets would want to adopt a different set of rules! Speaking from the viewpoint of someone who spent a decade working in the rarified air of NCAA athletics, the answer to your question is quite obvious. As everyone readily acknowledges, the NCAA is the center of the universe. End of explanation. What is the TRUE mystery (at least to those breathing that rarified air) is why anyone running swim meets would want to adopt a set of rules different than those concocted by the NCAA.

RE: Beard DQ at WC

Former Member — Sat, 16 Oct 2004 09:11:48 GMT

Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com Something just hit me! There are great differences between FINA/USMS & high school & NCAA. Why? No wonder peole get DQ'ed for what seems like minor faults. the guy who looks at my strokes is a judge for high schools. He is very strict about form. Does he have to be? The rules for USS and USMS are almost verbatim the same. The only real difference is that USMS allows the breaststroke kick to be used in butterfly, while USS does not. The rules for FINA are nearly the same as the USS rules, except that they occasionally use a different word to express the same concept. The rules for NCAA are worded in a significantly different way from the USS, USMS, and FINA rules. Because of the significant differences in how the NCAA rules are worded, it is difficult to define exactly what the differences in meaning are, though it is clear that there are some things that are forbidden by the NCAA rules that would not be forbidden by the USS, USMS, or FINA rules. If someone has only been trained in refereeing according to NCAA rules, what he says will not be reliable for swimmers who compete in USS, USMS, or FINA competitions. As for why the NCAA rules are different - well, you'd have to ask NCAA! When USS, USMS, and FINA are all in agreement about the rules, it's hard to see why anyone running swim meets would want to adopt a different set of rules!

RE: Beard DQ at WC

Former Member — Sat, 16 Oct 2004 08:48:59 GMT

Originally posted by breastroker For FINA and Masters in fly and breaststroke you do not have to touch on the same plane. You have to touch both hands simultaneously at above or below the waters surface. Nothing is said about touching at the same level. The same thing is true for USS and NCAA.

RE: Beard DQ at WC

Former Member — Wed, 13 Oct 2004 16:22:01 GMT

I don't know what you saw, gull80. The turn was fine and continuous. By the time his hand stopped moving he was flipping. I certainly hope he kicked through the turn, it would be silly not to.

RE: Beard DQ at WC

Former Member — Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:07:01 GMT

You're right of course, Phil. Thanks for clearing that up. I'm so stupid. Aaaaargh!!!

RE: Beard DQ at WC

Former Member — Wed, 13 Oct 2004 08:49:18 GMT

For FINA and Masters in fly and breaststroke you do not have to touch on the same plane. You have to touch both hands simultaneously at above or below the waters surface. Nothing is said about touching at the same level. Then when you push off your shoulders at at or past the verticle towards the breastwhen the swimmer leaves the wall. The way I teach fly and *** turns is to touch simultaneously, but one hand lower than the other. This allows a quicker turn:D

RE: Beard DQ at WC

Former Member — Wed, 13 Oct 2004 06:51:45 GMT

I was talking with a high school judge. He said tha tnot touching the wall with both hands at the same time on the same plain is the most common mistake in competitive swimming. I think that is interesting. He said that is how most DQ's come about at meets. I think that he is probably right. I've noticed it when watching high school meeets and am always surprised how often it doesn't get called. It is very easy to see of all of the generally well known mistakes. Also, about Aaron. It is after the stroke is complete. Both of his hands are at his side frequently and his body is still. It seems then that he hesitates before he tucks his head and flips. I was once told to never have my hands both at my hips when i begin to flip because a judge will always call it. I've always thought that this was a DQ.

RE: Beard DQ at WC

michaelmoore — Wed, 13 Oct 2004 03:27:56 GMT

not touching the wall with both hands at the same time on the same plain is the most common mistake in competitive swimming. One no longer has to touch the wall with hands in the same plane; or even having the shoulders level. One just has to touch the wall with both hands at the same time. (This is applys to Masters and USA Swimming - High school has its own set of rules). michael

RE: Beard DQ at WC

Former Member — Tue, 12 Oct 2004 15:55:29 GMT

this is along the swme thought. I really do think that A. Peirsol does seem to stop before he flips. I recorded him at scm, it looks like after he flips onto his stomach, he stops for a very brief time. All of the other guys do sort of a "body whip." He doesn't. does anyone have any thoughts? It is so hard to detect.

RE: Beard DQ at WC

Former Member — Tue, 12 Oct 2004 15:49:27 GMT

Well I was curious. It seems so unlikely for the pros to make amateur mistakes. She may have been affected by her sprained ankle. In a way it's reassuring that even they can make such mistakes! :p

RE: Beard DQ at WC

Former Member — Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:46:56 GMT

His hand did not appear to be continuously moving during the replay from the underwater camera at the Olympics.

RE: Beard DQ at WC

Former Member — Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:24:07 GMT

Arrons hand continues to move UNDERNEATH his body, which makes it diffucult to see by the judges. If his hand were outside of the body the judges could see it and would have no problem. Never think all these great swimmers do all things to perfection. Once upon a time there was a USC swimmer how would have won a gold medal in the 400 IM by 6-8 seconds, but she never got out of trials. She did not turn torwards the *** until after the "T" on the back to *** turn. It was so obvious they had to DQ her. I can totally relate to Amanda and her strained ankle, I had that for one meet and it hurt so bad, as she said hers hurt. Yet she still swam world class times. True grit in my opinion.

RE: Beard DQ at WC

Former Member — Tue, 12 Oct 2004 05:29:46 GMT

I agree. At the Olympics, it did not look like his turn was one continuous motion, since he did seem to glide (and kick?) after turning on to his stomach. Maybe that was the source of his temporary DQ. However, I'm not a turn judge and probably don't know what I'm talking about (not that that has ever stopped me before).

RE: Beard DQ at WC

michaelmoore — Tue, 12 Oct 2004 02:03:17 GMT

I heard from one of the admin refs at the championships, that the DQ was for a non-simultanious touch. The DQ was not announced at the venue, nor were "final" times posted. michael

RE: Beard DQ at WC

Former Member — Mon, 11 Oct 2004 07:29:45 GMT

I was wondering the same thing. She did not go past 15 meters on any of the strokes. I would suspect it was the dreaded not "past the vertical towards the ***" on back to breaststroke. The officials have been getting the men for 15 meter violations, you can really see where great underwater dolphin kicks are huge for some swimmers. In the mens 100 and 200 IM it seems the better you can dolphin on fly and back the bigger lead you have. One guy even dolphined about 10-12 meters on the free leg! I wish the underwater photos were better, they seem cloudy.