Some breaststroke is not legal freestyle?

RE: Some breaststroke is not legal freestyle?

Former Member — Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:45:24 GMT

Hi Lindsay, Thanks for the info! I've copied your post onto the Italian forum. We're asking the same questions you all are. I think the idea to form a heat of all 800 medley and inform the judges is the best - eliminates all discussion. Here's the link: Italian Masters Swimming Forum

RE: Some breaststroke is not legal freestyle?

Former Member — Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:07:15 GMT

Hi Mary, most people here seem to agree that in freestyle you are not allowed to completely submerge once you are beyond the 15m mark on each length, whether this is a problem for your 800IM depends on the style of breaststroke your swimmers swim, if they break the surface with their heads at all times during their stroke cycle they should be fine, if they submerge they could be disqualified. Actually, I've been watching video of butterfly, and I think many swimmers could be disqualified for submerging during the fly, especially longer distance fly as in the 200fly and probably even more so in 800IM. I noticed that the terminology for fly is different "The swimmer must remain on the surface until the next turn or finish." for butterfly versus "Some part of the swimmer must break the surface of the water throughout the race, except..." for freestyle. If you are able to get enough people to fill an entire heat you might inquire with the meet organizers about making an 800IM event. This would avoid the ***/fly DQ issue and have the added advantage that the turn judges could enforce the IM turn rules, under freestyle rules you would have to go on the honour system about doing legal IM turns. It would also ensure that your swimmers got to swim together which is hard to ensure otherwise. I believe that the rule about finishing with the stroke you started with has been done away with, I have heard it several times, and seen it in older swimming books, but I couldn't find any reference to it in the current FINA rules.

RE: Some breaststroke is not legal freestyle?

Former Member — Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:14:11 GMT

Thanks for this thread! Some crazy guys here in Italy are talking about doing an 800m medley during an 800m freestyle race. They're trying to set up an entire heat of 800m medelyers (6 or 8 lanes, depending on the pool where they do it). Do you see any problem with this? They also want to do a 400m fly during a 400m freestyle race. That should be OK? Right? If anyone feels like trying that one, come on over! Regarding the rule about "if you start a freestyle race doing freestyle, you have to finish it in the same style" are you sure about that? I've heard tales of a 40-44 400m free world record holder who one time turned on his back and finished a 400m race doing backstroke, and was not dqd. Just curious.

RE: Some breaststroke is not legal freestyle?

Former Member — Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:27:35 GMT

And freestyle is always last.

RE: Some breaststroke is not legal freestyle?

Former Member — Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:20:54 GMT

hey, y'all. here's a quirky tid bit that you might find useful to bring to mind some time in the near or distant future about medleys. No matter if it is individual medley or medley relay, it has always been and always will be: NO MATTER WHAT COMES BEFORE OR AFTER, breaststroke ALWAYS is the next stroke after backstroke.

RE: Some breaststroke is not legal freestyle?

Former Member — Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:46:04 GMT

And yes Lindsay, it is definitely the case that submerging between the 15 meter marks during a freestyle event will get you disqualified. The rule is very clear. Quite right...but you can swim *** as long as your head doesn't not submerge, no problem for us old-timers, and you swim it illegally for example with a dolphin kick. So to add to Phil's rule phobia illegal breastroker, backstroke and or fly is legal fourth stroke as long as you don't break any of the free rules (submerged after 15 meter mark, pulling on lane line, pushing off the bottom, interfering with another swimmer etc). The illegal backstroke can become a challenge since you have to move onto your stomach while not executing a turn.

RE: Some breaststroke is not legal freestyle?

Former Member — Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:20:15 GMT

15 meters equals 16.41 yards or 49.215 feet. They swam a three stroke IM before 1956, ***, back and free. After 1956 it became Fly, back, *** and freestyle, or correctly some other stroke. Again backstroke still reads anything on your back, so long as you don not go underwater past 15 meters.

RE: Some breaststroke is not legal freestyle?

Former Member — Mon, 20 Sep 2004 06:01:04 GMT

1) In a 15 meters, I think equals 12.5 feet? or vice-aversa. 2) I think that the history is that the first IM was swam in Manchester. then other languages translated it into their own language. It could only come about when *** & fly were totally seperated. 3) Why would you want to submerge your head during a freestyle race. It wousl slow you down so much. 4) My mom used to swim all of her back stroke with a two legged kick. She learned to swim in the late 1920's. As far as I know she was never dq'ed. Should she have been?

RE: Some breaststroke is not legal freestyle?

Former Member — Sun, 19 Sep 2004 08:02:56 GMT

Originally posted by londoner62 Is it still 15 meters in a 25 yard pool? If yes, does it follow that 15 meters is the case regardless of the pool size? Yes. And yes.

RE: Some breaststroke is not legal freestyle?

Former Member — Sun, 19 Sep 2004 07:57:48 GMT

Is it still 15 meters in a 25 yard pool? If yes, does it follow that 15 meters is the case regardless of the pool size?

RE: Some breaststroke is not legal freestyle?

Former Member — Sat, 18 Sep 2004 16:22:53 GMT

Originally posted by Phil Arcuni And yes Lindsay, it is definitely the case that submerging between the 15 meter marks during a freestyle event will get you disqualified. The rule is very clear. Just out of interest: How do referees (or swimmers, for that matter) know where the 15 meter mark is? I have yet to be at a Masters meet where I saw any kind of 15 meter markers.

RE: Some breaststroke is not legal freestyle?

Former Member — Sat, 18 Sep 2004 05:23:25 GMT

I'm on top of the rules also, and double-arm elementary backstroke with a breastroke kick is backstroke - you would not get disqualified swimming it in a backstroke event. Lousy rule. How much of the last fourth of an IM event, swum in a legal ***, back, or fly stroke, is too much and results in a dq'd? And yes Lindsay, it is definitely the case that submerging between the 15 meter marks during a freestyle event will get you disqualified. The rule is very clear.

RE: Some breaststroke is not legal freestyle?

Former Member — Sat, 18 Sep 2004 05:11:19 GMT

The lane lines should have a colored mark at the the 15 meter point from both walls.

RE: Some breaststroke is not legal freestyle?

Former Member — Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:44:51 GMT

It is in fact possible to be DQ'd in freestyle while swimming what would be a legal breaststroke in a breaststroke race. By violating a fundamental premise of swimming (that freestyle is any stroke you want) it is my number one least favorite stroke and turn rule. Last year I swam a 200 free, while the fellow next to me swam a 200 IM. He was DQ'd because of submerging during breaststroke. Second least favorite - the no glide during a backstoke turn. Third least favorite - In the IM, the freestyle is any stroke other than the first three. Why should that be? Why not swim your fastest stroke? Or, if I swim breastroke illegally (say, dolphin off my turn) does that mean I can swim it during the freestyle leg?

RE: Some breaststroke is not legal freestyle?

Former Member — Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:07:43 GMT

Regarding the 15 meter rule, in free, back and fly you must surface before 15 meters. Not one breaststroker in the 2004 Olympics exceeded even 13 meters off the turns, and I could not find one example of any exceeding 14.5 meters off the start. These are the best trained and best technique in the world. The IM rule basically states fly, back, ***, and something other than the previous three strokes. So you can't do *** or fly again. Being the typical "crazy" breaststroker, I have successfully done 25 yards dolphin kick, coming up to the surface just before the 15 meters mark. Then I did double armed elementary backstroke with breaststroke kick, followed by 16 meters underwater breaststroke, and then sidestroke. And I did not get disqualified. The meet officials all did comment " was this a test" and "I bet you thought we would err and Dq you". We are fortunate to have great officials, and I make sure they have copies of the USMS rules each year! Now in 2006 when the Worlds will be in the USA, I will do 200 meters butterfly, all with breaststroke kick, just because I can and not get disqualified! I just hpe I can make the qualifyng time by kick alone. I should be able to kick a 3:20 or better if in shape. Getting old, I used to kick 2:50 for short course meters. The USMS rules are different from FINA and require a arm pull with every breaststroke kick:p

RE: Some breaststroke is not legal freestyle?

Former Member — Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:22:08 GMT

Originally posted by Phil Arcuni Third least favorite - In the IM, the freestyle is any stroke other than the first three. Why should that be? Why not swim your fastest stroke? Or, if I swim breastroke illegally (say, dolphin off my turn) does that mean I can swim it during the freestyle leg? Pure conjecture but the French phrase for Individual Medley translates to English as roughly four strokes, so the original intent may have been the four stroke event, so repeating one of the three required strokes would make it three strokes instead of four. Like I said, pure conjecture. It's interesting to hear that people have actually been disqualified for swimming legal breaststroke as freestyle. Someone should propose a rule change. I bet it was an oversight that they didn't change the freestyle rules when they changed the breaststroke rules.

RE: Some breaststroke is not legal freestyle?

Former Member — Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:49:47 GMT

Wayne, since you are clearly up on your rules, do you concur that submerging while breaststroking in a freestyle heat is illegal? I remember you talking about swimming breaststroke in freestyle heats in another thread which makes me wonder.