Breaststroke turns - how to cheat 101

RE: Breaststroke turns - how to cheat 101

Former Member — Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:02:48 GMT

Here are the FINA Rules: SW 7 BREASTSTROKE SW 7.1 From the beginning of the first arm stroke after the start and after each turn, the body shall be kept on the ***. It is not permitted to roll onto the back at any time. SW 7.2 All movements of the arms shall be simultaneous and in the same horizontal plane without alternating movement. SW 7.3 The hands shall be pushed forward together from the *** on, under, or over the water. The elbows shall be under water except for the final stroke before the turn, during the turn and for the final stroke at the finish. The hands shall be brought back on or under the surface of the water. The hands shall not be brought back beyond the hip line, except during the first stroke after the start and each turn. SW 7.4 All movements of the legs shall be simultaneous and in the same horizontal plane without alternating movement. SW 7.5 The feet must be turned outwards during the propulsive part of the kick. A scissors, flutter or downward dolphin kick is not permitted. Breaking the surface of the water with the feet is allowed unless followed by a downward dolphin kick. SW 7.6 At each turn and at the finish of the race, the touch shall be made with both hands simultaneously at, above, or below the water level. The head may be submerged after the last arm pull prior to the touch, provided it breaks the surface of the water at some point during the last complete or incomplete cycle preceding the touch. SW 7.7 During each complete cycle of one arm stroke and one leg kick, in that order, some part of the swimmer's head shall break the surface of the water, except that after the start and after each turn the swimmer may take one arm stroke completely back to the legs and one leg kick while wholly submerged. The head must break the surface of the water before the hands turn inward at the widest part of the second stroke. Kitajima clearly broke Rule SW 7.5 "downward dolphin kick is not permitted". In the 100 meters he did 2 dolphins off the start and one huge one at the turn. CHEATER!

RE: Breaststroke turns - how to cheat 101

Former Member — Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:28:08 GMT

When I read what breaststroker wrote, some of my ?'s are answered.

RE: Breaststroke turns - how to cheat 101

Former Member — Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:18:11 GMT

Flip turn will always be faster than any open turn. How does the rule define exactly what the *** kick is? this is very confusing to me. I think the abouve statement is good but when does the stroke begin, when does the kick begin? When I was taught *** stroke & when I look at the rules, it seems that the stroke begins at the start with the arms moving outward. Does this mean that anything done before that movement of the arms is not the stroke and should be counted as part of the first stroke? I could see where that could be the interpretation. would it have been legal if he had only done one dolphin then one stroke then had his head break the surface? On the turn, the same questions??????

RE: Breaststroke turns - how to cheat 101

Former Member — Sun, 12 Sep 2004 15:44:28 GMT

So much for the judges. Sad as he could have won without cheating. Your photo is great. He is BUSTED.

RE: Breaststroke turns - how to cheat 101

Former Member — Sun, 12 Sep 2004 15:33:06 GMT

I seem to have hit a limit on number of attachments I can post so I have combined the images into one single image:

RE: Breaststroke turns - how to cheat 101

Former Member — Sun, 12 Sep 2004 15:31:55 GMT

Here are some still shots of Kitijima's start in the 100m final:

RE: Breaststroke turns - how to cheat 101

Former Member — Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:43:36 GMT

I have been looking at bossini2004a.mpeg at swimfastest.net/.../athen...2004.html Kitijima also dolphins on the start, actually dives in with his knees up, as he is entering the water. He then has a huge down kick off that, then the dolphin at the start of the pull down. Check him out at bossini2004a. He is right behind Bossini (black full body) in the white jammers and white cap. Watch from frames 43 to 60, this is the "Magic Surge" that PowerStarts talks about. At frame 43 his legs are at 90 degrees to his body, not exactly what coaches teach for streamline into the dive. Then look at frame 140 where he lifts his legs while in streamline, before the underwater pull starts. He then adds a smaller dolphin between 155 and 170. Talk about a smooth CHEATER. Note he is in clear water the next turn, so from 790 to 1070 he does not dolphin! After all the fuss about his CHEATING in the 100, he still got away with a little dolphin off the start pulldown. Now the "Magic Surge" at http://www.quickgetaway.com/ teaches what Kitajima does off the start, use your steep entry to then surge forwards as you go from nearly a 45 degree angle to the water to parallel to the waters surface. Kitijima adds this huge dolphin kick less than a tenth of a second after his feet hit the water. Because of the splash of entry no one above can see his "Magic Surge". This should be copied by all freestylers and butterfliers as it is legal and gets you ahead of competitors immediately. I am not really sure if this is legal in breaststroke as some would argue that it is a part of the start. But section 101.2.3 (Masters)clearly states a scissors, flutter, or a downward butterfly kick is not permitted. How about the prince of darkness rulling on this?

RE: Breaststroke turns - how to cheat 101

Former Member — Thu, 09 Sep 2004 11:15:41 GMT

Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com That is the same with the backstroker. Does anyone know who it is or in what part of the pool it occurred. Almost no one can see something happening in the middle lanes in the middle of the pool. Women's 100m back, final; Mai Nakamura, Japan (top -- grabbing lane line!), silver medal; Diana Mocanu (second from top), Romania, gold medal, Olympic record. It appears to be at about 10 meters from the wall. Don

RE: Breaststroke turns - how to cheat 101

Former Member — Wed, 08 Sep 2004 14:44:05 GMT

Sorry for everyone who gets updated automatically. Read Swimming Fastest. He goes on and on about no real advantage to dolphin kicking underwater. From my own experience, I know that there is some power created from doing a dolphin kick off of the wall. However, the mechanics would suggest tht the downward motion would interfer with the backward push of the water. I would like to know if there is any advantage to doing more than one. I've tried one & I've tried 4. I can't tell. Sometimes if I do more than one, it will disurpt my flow into kicking for free to start the stroke. also, something I've noticed with adults who have not swam all of theior lives, as they come off of the wall, they tend to begin to stroke first. Then after one stroke, they will kick. It is hard to convince them that this is one of their biggest mistakes. I think if they watched this video, they might understand the importance of that first kick. With ***, it seems that the dolphin kick would not really disurpt the streamline for the first pull if it were kept small . In the free wouldn't that force you to kick outside of the wave ban? This is something I'm not knowledgeable about to know. What resistance would a big dolphin kick do at the beginning of a stroke after a turn? Also, I was first taught to swim by my father who learned to swim before there was a difference between *** & butterfly. I think that he first raced before there was a butterfly - 1920's. He couldn't teach me the *** because it confused him so much. I hear so many young kids say that their favorite drill is to stroke *** & kick butterfly. It has always seemed to me that this drill teaches how to cheat.

RE: Breaststroke turns - how to cheat 101

Former Member — Wed, 08 Sep 2004 14:28:17 GMT

The turn really does start how it can legally, I think. The motion of the feet are just very smooth and quick. After the turn the small butterfly kick is probably illegal. Doesn't it have something to do with getting power from the top of your foot? But it would be almost impossible to see. That is how people have always cheated in swimming. If you do something Where there is some turbulance but not enough to interfer with speed, it will be done. That is the same with the backstroker. Does anyone know who it is or in what part of the pool it occurred. Almost no one can see something happening in the middle lanes in the middle of the pool.

RE: Breaststroke turns - how to cheat 101

Former Member — Wed, 08 Sep 2004 12:28:09 GMT

Speaking of cheating, here's a clip of a backstroker clearly pulling on the lane line in an Olympic final! swimfastest.net/.../mocanu.mpg Don

RE: Breaststroke turns - how to cheat 101

Former Member — Wed, 08 Sep 2004 07:13:31 GMT

Originally posted by Guvnah Yup. Freeestyle rule would allow it. (Thus the name free-style.) Don't think you're the first person to think of it! :) I'm sure that many, many swimmers (and better swimmers than me) have thought of it. But has anyone used it successfully at a high level of compettition - say NCAA's, worlds, Olympics?

RE: Breaststroke turns - how to cheat 101

Former Member — Tue, 07 Sep 2004 14:31:18 GMT

I hope you don't mean cheating tools:D :D There is great technique in these videos. Most breaststrokers and butterflyers no longer scull out and in, it is more a pull back. The turns are so important in races. The push offs the wall on free and fly easily show that with proper streamline and some dolphin kicks you can make up as much as a meter. Phelps and Natalie do this so well. Please note I was not the original poster of this link, although many of us have been looking at the site for over a year.

RE: Breaststroke turns - how to cheat 101

Former Member — Tue, 07 Sep 2004 14:04:07 GMT

Wayne....thanks for the link!!!! These will make great training tools for the kids!!!!:D

RE: Breaststroke turns - how to cheat 101

Former Member — Tue, 07 Sep 2004 11:30:28 GMT

Originally posted by Scansy Makes me wonder if someone could be so good at a breaststroke turn/pulldown that they could use it as the turn in a freestyle race while doing the normal freestyle stroke in the middle? Freestyle rules would allow it I think?:confused: Yup. Freeestyle rule would allow it. (Thus the name free-style.) Don't think you're the first person to think of it! :)

RE: Breaststroke turns - how to cheat 101

Former Member — Tue, 07 Sep 2004 11:28:40 GMT

Yep, dolphin kick. I remember even doing that when I was an age grouper... Never got caught --but I never won either. Such was my karma... The feed was great! Thanks.

RE: Breaststroke turns - how to cheat 101

Former Member — Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:08:59 GMT

Watching these videos is great. I can see areas that I need to work on. In particular, I pull my hands back too far during the stroke. These guys almost look like they are taking short, choppy strokes ending under their chins. I still come back to far though, ending almost to my stomach....

RE: Breaststroke turns - how to cheat 101

Former Member — Tue, 07 Sep 2004 07:51:13 GMT

Originally posted by breastroker It is a great way to get respect from freestylers when you can beat their flip turn and come up a body length or more ahead after the pulldown:D I have only been in the pool for about 18 months. The thing that made the biggest improvement in any one stroke was to learn to do a proper turn/pulldown on the breaststroke. (Although I'm sure I can still improve a lot more:( .) I can get keep an eye on someone doing freestyle in the lane next to me. They will pass me at the middle of the pool and be a body length in front of me at the end, then after the turn I can be a body length ahead of them. Then they pass me in the middle again..... Makes me wonder if someone could be so good at a breaststroke turn/pulldown that they could use it as the turn in a freestyle race while doing the normal freestyle stroke in the middle? Freestyle rules would allow it I think?:confused:

RE: Breaststroke turns - how to cheat 101

Former Member — Tue, 07 Sep 2004 07:34:31 GMT

I have had coaches from other countries tell me that it wasn't a dolphin kick, and that Bossinni was repositioning his legs for the turn. Let me tell you as a life long breaststroker, where Kitajima took his dolphin kick was calculated and deliberate. In no way was it due to the pulldown. It is much easier to remain streamlined than to carefully sneak the feet up in order to do dolpin at exactly the correct point to get maximum thrust. And Bossinni was way too far away from the wall for his dolphin to be part of the turn. For coaches, the actual turns of Kitajima and Hanson are textbook, just don't show the dolphin kick on the 100 ***. For years Ed Moses had the fastest times for breaststroke turns, that is 5 meters into and out of the turns. He was between 0.3 and 1.0 seconds faster! But Kitajima caught him in turn speed in 2001 and became faster than ed from 2002-present. This is something all masters swimmers can inprove on. I have a video of myself touching at the 25 yd of the 50 yd *** at nationals at DeAnza. I touched in front of everyone, but came up almost a yard behind after the pullout. I got third but swore I would never loose another turn! Every turn in practice is a race turn, always looking for perfection. It is a great way to get respect from freestylers when you can beat their flip turn and come up a body length or more ahead after the pulldown:D

RE: Breaststroke turns - how to cheat 101

Former Member — Tue, 07 Sep 2004 05:32:14 GMT

Okay, from this objective point of view (I'm a backstroker, and while I like Brendan Hansen, I really have no side, either way)....whoo, sidetrack, anyway! I watched the video, I saw the race. To point out one thing, Brendan, in a possible way, performed way better at the Trials than he did at the Games. Blame it on tapering, mental pressure, whatever. He swam better before the Games. In that light, Katajima probably would have won the gold anyway if he hadn't cheated, because you're right, Brendan didn't seem to have a good pullout, at least, not as good as Katajima's, minus the cheat. Which brings me to the real point. Faster or not in the race, Katajima clearly cheated. The issue isn't whether Brendan would have won gold, or anything else, it's the simple fact that a swimmer cheated, in a level of competition like the Olympics, and almost nobody called him on it. Bravo to Aaron Peirsol and Jason Lezak for sticking true to their morals, even if it did look like they were just sticking up for a teammate. Maybe this isn't such a great training video for kids, because while it teaches them what cheating is, it might also teach them how to get away with it. :( Sorry for anybody that gets angry over this, but it's objective. At least, as objective as a 20 year old backstroker can be. :cool:

RE: Breaststroke turns - how to cheat 101

Former Member — Mon, 06 Sep 2004 14:47:14 GMT

Look at the turn on kitajima2004a.mpg. Interesting that Kitajima and Brendan Hanson hit the wall together just above the cross in the touch pad. But Kitajima has a slightly faster turn, he gets into a tighter ball and his feet leave the wall just before Brendans. What is amazing is Hansen has what I consider a poor streamline. If you clasp your thumb over the side of the top of the other hand, you can get into a tighter streamline as your shoulders are pulled in tighter. This allows Kitajima to get to the 5 meter line first at frames 380. Brendan breaks streamline to begin his pulldown, while Kitajima continues until frame 388 to start his backwards pulldown. Note: do not just put one hand on to of the other, use your thumb to lock over the other hand, and stretch into a tighter streamline. But look at the other end, Kitajima sneaks his feet up from frames 380 to 392. Here he begins the BIG CHEAT. Watch carefully boys and girls, this is advanced cheating 201. Frames 392 to 402 clearly show a downwards dolphin kick, note the huge eddy currect shown in frames 402 to 412. Note his hands are still in front of his face at frame 402 when the dolphin kick is completed. Generally if the body pikes during the pulldown from pulling so hard, it happens when the arms get to the chest and past. When your hands are out in front, you do not have the mechanical advantage that you create when you are in your power zone from the chest to the waist. This is the only area that you can over pull and create a dolphin kick from pulling too hard. And it actually breaks streamline if it occurs in this area. Kitajima clearly uses the dolphin to gain a HUGE advantage. He gains over 18 inches on this one CHEAT alone. He did the same off the start of the 100. When Kitajima hits the 15 meter mark, (the red lane lines) at frames 754 his neck is passing the 15 meter mark as Brendans hands get to the mark at frame 775. Clearly over 2 feet. Without cheating he would have had six inches to as much as a foot lead. With cheating a GOLD medal!!!! Priceless.