What Is Wrong With Swimming??

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:19:03 GMT

Originally posted by Howard I understand as well. Spectators are probably covered as part of the pools insurance? Spectators (unless working as volunteers) are not covered by USMS insurance under any circumstances - meets, sanctioned or otherwise, or practices.

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:15:05 GMT

I also appreciate this discussion. I've toyed with adding some events to meets but never have thinking I couldn't. Now I don't have any excuse.

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:12:00 GMT

I understand as well. Spectators are probably covered as part of the pools insurance? I always thought we couldn't hold a meet with events that differed from the norm because of our insurance. This has cleared that up. I'm hoping we will add some other events to our meets.

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:08:12 GMT

I got it. Thanks.

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:08:38 GMT

That helps a bunch. Thanks.

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:02:28 GMT

Not exactly. If you want to run an event that will have on-deck participants (officials, timers, other volunteers etc) that are NOT USMS registered, then the only way for them to be covered under USMS insurance is to sanction the event.

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:40:02 GMT

Originally posted by Bob McAdams Keep in mind that it is not unheard of for a team to have a practice meet. The kids' swim team at the YMCA where I swim does this each fall, partly to give new swimmers a chance to get the feel of what it's like to be at a meet before going to one that counts. They divide their team into three groups, which are matched for age, sex, and swimming ability, and then have them compete in an unofficial meet. So I don't think that calling it a "meet" would disqualify it as being "practice". Seems to me that anything saying it has a meet director is a meet. I really don't care and if those running it, the pool management and the swimmers don't have any concern then there's no issue. At least until they serve hot coffee at the meet. Maybe a better question to ask is why can't we sanction meets that don't adhere to the norm? I'm pretty sure it's got to do with insurance. What makes a 500 back or *** less certifiable than the 500 free? Anyone out there on the insurance committee?

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:23:10 GMT

Then the only reason to sanction an event is to have the times accepted by USMS for records and top ten?

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Rob Copeland — Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:19:44 GMT

Howard, I can’t speak for the insurance folks, however, you are allowed to contest “nonconforming swimming events” at a sanctioned meet. So it is completely legal to have a 500 Backstroke at a sanctioned meet. As far as this being a meet or a practice – in the eyes of USMS it is not a meet unless a sanction/recognition is issued. A meet by definition is an event or series of events held under a single sanction or recognition. And finally, there are a few differences in insurance coverage between sanctioned/recognized meets and practices. In either case the swimmers are covered for liability and excess accidental medical. However only in the sanctioned/recognized meets are the meet director, officials and volunteers covered. There is no liability coverage meet director, officials and volunteers at a practice.

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:20:10 GMT

Originally posted by Rob Copeland ...There is no liability coverage meet director, officials and volunteers at a practice. I believe they are all covered if they are USMS registered.

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:09:55 GMT

Here's what Sandi Blumit at Risk Management Services, Inc. (our insurance company) said in response to a complete description of our Mock Meet operation and query about coverage: "The key to USMS being in place for an activity is that all participants are USMS members. The scenario you present would be considered an 'organized practice' which is an insured activity." From a program director's viewpoint the question isn't whether the swimmers care about the insurance coverage, its whether we're upholding our end of the contract we have with the facility that requires us to have insurance coverage in force for all activities we undertake.

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:58:26 GMT

You are correct that it is not a USMS meet. But we plainly state in the meet info that "this is a USMS 'practice' rather than a 'meet'." By requiring all participants to be USMS registered, and clearly stating that this is a scheduled practice and having a USMS registered person (me) supervising all activities we are covered under USMS insurance, just as any other practice would be.

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:51:57 GMT

Are there any insurance issues since it isn't a USMS sanctioned meet?

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Sun, 22 Aug 2004 14:30:52 GMT

Peter, great idea How about a contest to see who can come closest to their seed times? In SPMA we have had the Turkey shoot meet for over 20 years, at Pierce College in Woodland Hills Kalifornia. It is held just before Thanksgiving. The person in each event (50 meters free, *** etc.) closest to their seed time wins a certificate to the local supermarket for a Turkey or other food. People sometimes get their exact time, although a tenth of a second will win sometimes. This is a great meet, always have fun. I enter meets as soon as the forms come out, sometimes months before. That may be one of the reasons I have never won a Turkey! I was sick last year, otherwise I have never missed this meet in 20 years! Here is the link to our Turkey Shoot meet: www.spma.net/meetforms.htm We have had people from all over the world show up, you are all invited. You can even deck enter. Mark your calendars, November 21st.

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Sun, 22 Aug 2004 14:28:06 GMT

Originally posted by Howard I'm not an attorney but it seems to me you hurt the case of calling it a practice each time you refer to it as a meet. Any familiar enough with our insurance policy care to comment. I think doing things differently is great but I'd hate to go to a meet and have something happen only to find we aren't covered. Keep in mind that it is not unheard of for a team to have a practice meet. The kids' swim team at the YMCA where I swim does this each fall, partly to give new swimmers a chance to get the feel of what it's like to be at a meet before going to one that counts. They divide their team into three groups, which are matched for age, sex, and swimming ability, and then have them compete in an unofficial meet. So I don't think that calling it a "meet" would disqualify it as being "practice".

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:58:27 GMT

And encouraging people to swim only their best events would help reduce the number of heats per event and make coaches think twice about who to put in what event. I went to an age group meet not too long ago where the team who won, won by the sheer number of swimmers they had, more swimmers getting low scores equals a high total score. They didn't necessarily have better swimmers, just more of them.

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:07:18 GMT

How about a contest to see who can come closest to their seed times? All of a sudden the chronic sandbaggers would suddenly have a much better idea of how fast they would swim in a given race...

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:50:43 GMT

Winning based on an average point per event would encourage people to swim only the events they are good at otherwise they would hurt the team.

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:48:16 GMT

what about some crazy scoring that would 'level' the field so large teams and small teams would have 'equal' opportunity of winning the meet. Here's what I mean, score as usual, but then divide the total score by the number of swimmers on a team, resulting in an AVERAGE score per swimmer. The team with the highest average score would win. (Team A with 50 swimmers scores 450 points would average 9 points per swimmer, team B with 30 swimmers scores 300 would average 10 points per swimmer--team B wins) This could be extended to individuals as well... Divide the individuals total score by the number of events and you would get the average score per swim. What about allowing heat winners to contribute 1 point to the total score or DQ's causing a 5 pt debit to his/her total score as well as to the teams total score. That could make things get really interesting.

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Sun, 22 Aug 2004 06:06:49 GMT

I'm not an attorney but it seems to me you hurt the case of calling it a practice each time you refer to it as a meet. Any familiar enough with our insurance policy care to comment. I think doing things differently is great but I'd hate to go to a meet and have something happen only to find we aren't covered. Statements calling it a meet. ================================================= H2O Girl Scout Cookie Pickup Dual Mock Meet - Sat May 8 ================================================= This is the 2nd installment of our new pickup dual Meet format. Advance entries will only be taken by email. First come, first served. Entries will be limited to a maximum of 30 to keep the Meet of short duration. "PICKUP" - This means the teams will be assigned after all entries are in with an eye toward having roughly equal teams - we'll try to equalize sex, age and ability distributions across the two teams - a bit like kids choose up teams on the playground, only the Meet Director will do the choosing. We will NOT necessarily offer all events in this Meet. Instead, we ask you to list the 5 different events you'd MOST like to see offered in the Meet. HOW MANY events we actually run in the Meet. The list of events will be announced on Meet day. BUT, at our last Meet everyone had an opportunity to swim their first-choice event Midnight Monday prior to the Meet - We need to have a minimum of 20 advance entries by then to make this event viable. If we get that, then we'll continue to accept advance entries till noon of the day before the Meet, up to the entry limit of 30. You can cancel, with no obligation, until Thurs prior to the Meet. We'll collect entry fees on the day of the meet. Please do not enter unless you actually plan to show up and participate. We'll consider your email entry as a commitment and uncancelled no-shows will be expected to pay anyway. No deck entries allowed. H2O has it's normally scheduled Sat morning practice from 7-8:30am. All Meet participants are welcome and encouraged to participate in the H2O practice prior to the Meet Here you even compare your practice with the meet ------------------------------------------ MEET DAY SCHEDULE ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ MEET FROMAT ------------------------------------------ Statement calling it a practice. this is a USMS "practice" rather than a "Meet".

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:48:15 GMT

OK, now that we are all done with our once every four years feast of media attention and glory, I'd like to pick at this bone some more. I think there are many encouraging trends in swimming, and we'd probably profit by mulling them over. Unfortunately, I am not ready to focus on the big picture yet. In the meantime, I'd like to toss out an idea. One of my major beefs with swimming as a spectator sport is that it would make a Coronation March look unscripted by comparison. Don't let the tight races in the last Olympics fool you; predicting the final results from the heat sheets, with a little wiggle room for "surprises," is not that difficult. (And indeed, is the fact the U.S. has won more swimming medals that any other country a surprise to anyone who can correctly tell you what "IM" stands for?) Yes, yes, we all want to see the better team win. But let me ask you, which basketball tournament is more watchable? The NCAA Championships or the NBA Playoffs? Clearly, there is far more drama, interest, and just plain fun in the college game, and the reason for that is precisely BEACAUSE it is not so predictable. The better team frequently loses. We need to shake things up. Let me propose that for dual or tri-meets we ought to consider picking some extra events at random. For example, in college dual meets you usually swim 50 - 1000 freestyle, 200 stroke races, a 200 IM, and 4x100 relays. How about tossing the 50 and 100 stroke races, the 400 IM, and a 200 or 800 relay into a hat, and draw out two at random at the start of the meet? You could really push the idea to its semi-logical conclusion. I've always thought the medley relay was the most interesting event because you had to combine swimmers with disparate skills. How about putting 12-16 slips of paper with different stroke/distances into a hat, and drawing out 4 at random? That then becomes a grab bag relay. Score these random events just the same as the regular ones so that way the curmudgeons can't simply ignore them as a "side-show." All of a sudden the swim coach has got to start thinking a bit like a baseball manager and decide how to juggle his better swimmers because he may have to plug one of them in to one of the random events, or not, and take his chances he'll simply drown the other team regardless of their winning the random events. Or gamble that they will be caught just a flat footed as he is. Or maybe as a college coach think about training some second shelf swimmers to go competent stroke 50s or 100s because he may need them to do that more than at one or two championship meets in a season. Or...you get the picture. Suddenly he has to think like a manager and not a spread sheet. And the chances for second guessing, oh goodness what a fabulous chance to get people amped over a swim meet! Just my crazy idea. Matt

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Sat, 21 Aug 2004 13:11:38 GMT

Originally posted by Matt S Question about your touch-pad "workout" meet. Why couldn't you sanction it as an official (if screwey)meet? Cost. We wanted minimum overhead and a sanction fee affects the bottom line. After paying rent for the pool spacetime there wasn't much of a bottom line to work with. Officials. That is always a limiting factor around here as the kid's calendar is full enough that officials are often not available. You have to lock them in well in advance. Hassle. Sanctioning increases lead-time requirements, requires that official results are produced etc. We wanted this to be a format that we could launch with minimum possible lead time and effort - ie a one-person show that would not burn up lots of administrative or volunteer resources. Fun events. We wanted to be able to add unsanctionable events. Focus. This meet isn't about the official times, its about the fun of close team competition. We did not perceive officials were a necessary ingredient to that - think "pick-up basketball game".

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:15:08 GMT

Matt - great ideas! Masters meets need to be kicked up a notch as well. Here's something we tried successfully last year and we'll be doing it again this year. I've simply included the meet info below. It's a fast, fun way to get some close team competition.... ================================================= H2O Girl Scout Cookie Pickup Dual Mock Meet - Sat May 8 ================================================= This is the 2nd installment of our new pickup dual meet format. There are SOME CHANGES from the first installment, so read on. You need only commit part of a morning, rather than a whole day, to participate. It's different! Get over it! Sign up today! Details follow (PLEASE read the whole announcement carefully before you enter as this REALLY IS different and we don't want you to enter if you can't HANDLE different!): --------------------------------------- ENTRIES --------------------------------------- Advance entries will only be taken by email. First come, first served. Entries will be limited to a maximum of 30 to keep the meet of short duration. Simply fill in the following and hit Reply (all entries will be acknowledged, upon receipt, by email). Be sure to read the EVENTS and RANKINGS topics below BEFORE you fill this out. Name: Date of Birth: Age: Sex: Ranking: (hint - the rankings are different than last time - see below) Favorite Events (see EVENTS below) 1: 2: 3: 4: 5: You DO need to list 5 events above - blank spaces may be assumed to be 200 Fly :) ------------------------------------------------------------------- What the heck does "Girl Scout Cookie Pick-up Dual Mock Meet" mean? ------------------------------------------------------------------- "DUAL" - This means there will be only TWO teams, "Team 1" and "Team A". We will NOT go by USMS team affiliations. Rather, we'll assign each entrant to one of the aforementioned teams. "PICKUP" - This means the teams will be assigned after all entries are in with an eye toward having roughly equal teams - we'll try to equalize sex, age and ability distributions across the two teams - a bit like kids choose up teams on the playground, only the Meet Director will do the choosing. Each team, once chosen, will decide which swimmers will swim each of the events offered. "MOCK MEET" - This means it's an unsanctioned, unofficial, informal, bare-bones, low overhead, no-frills, no-t-shirts, no-officials-anywhere-to-be-seen opportunity to get up on the blocks with some other like-minded people and go fast against the clock! We'll swim real races using the Colorado Timing System with horn start and touchpads but, technically, this is a USMS "practice" rather than a "meet". "GIRL SCOUT COOKIE" - The winning team will get an assortment of traditional Girl Scout Cookie favorites to share among themselves. The losers get nada. -------------------------------------- EVENTS --------------------------------------- We will NOT necessarily offer all events in this meet. Instead, we ask you to list the 5 different events you'd MOST like to see offered in the meet (in order of preference, favorite event first). All standard SCY events EXCEPT 1000 and 1650 will be considered. HOW MANY events we actually run in the meet will depend upon the number of entries. WHICH events we run will depend on popularity according to the entries. There will be only one heat of each event. However, very popular events may occur more than once in the event lineup, and each occurrence will be scored separately. For instance, if the 50 free has loads of people who want to swim it then it might show up as the 3rd event, then again as the 7th event and maybe again as the 14th event. This would allow more people to be able to swim it. There is no guarantee you'll get to swim the events you want - your list on your entry simply gives us a guideline by which to select the events that will be offered. BUT, at our last meet everyone had an opportunity to swim their first-choice event and NEARLY everyone had opportunities to swim their 2nd and 3rd choice events as well. While we offer no guarantees, between the lineup we offer and the way we'll encourage teams to assign events, the likelihood of you being able to swim two or more of your favorites is quite high. The list of events will be announced on meet day. --------------------------------------- RANKINGS --------------------------------------- So that we might distribute ability levels evenly, we ask you to rank yourself on the broad spectrum of Masters swimmers (NOT within just your sex or age group). In an 8-lane pool where the fastest people swim in the higher number lanes and the slower people swim in the lower number lanes, where would YOU be swimming? SAILFISH - definitely Lane 8, I head straight for the fast lane BLUEFIN - Lane 6 or 7 (maybe even 8 if the others are too crowded) Pretty Fast SALMON - Lane 4 or 5 - Middling Fast DOLPHIN - Lane 2 or 3 - Not so fast PIKE - definitely Lane 1 - Slow but steady --------------------------------------- COST --------------------------------------- $15 paid at check-in - checks made out to H2Ouston Swims. If you enter, then no-show, you'll be expected to pay anyway. --------------------------------------- ENTRY/CANCELLATION DEADLINE --------------------------------------- Midnight Monday prior to the meet - We need to have a minimum of 20 advance entries by then to make this event viable. If we get that, then we'll continue to accept advance entries till noon of the day before the meet, up to the entry limit of 30. You can cancel, with no obligation, until Thurs prior to the meet. We'll collect entry fees on the day of the meet. Please do not enter unless you actually plan to show up and participate. We'll consider your email entry as a commitment and uncancelled no-shows will be expected to pay anyway. No deck entries allowed. --------------------------------------- ELIGIBILITY --------------------------------------- Only 2004 USMS Members (if you are not registered in Gulf, you must bring your USMS card for proof of current registration). --------------------------------------- TOP TEN AND NQTs --------------------------------------- Because this is not a sanctioned meet, times swum will not count toward Top Ten or National Records - but they WILL count toward USMS Nationals Qualifying Times! --------------------------------------- WARMUP/PRACTICE --------------------------------------- H2O has it's normally scheduled Sat morning practice from 7-8:30am. All meet participants are welcome and encouraged to participate in the H2O practice prior to the meet. We'll have several lanes available for free-form warm-up throughout the 7-8:30am period. ------------------------------------------ MEET DAY SCHEDULE ------------------------------------------ Check-in & Warm-up begins: 7:00am Teams and Events announced: 7:00am Check-in closes: 8:30am Team Meeting Period: 8:30 - 9:00 (or earlier if teams are finished picking events) Turn in event assignments: 9:00am First event starts: 9:05am ------------------------------------------ MEET FROMAT ------------------------------------------ On meet day we'll announce 2 teams, chosen with an eye toward even ability, sex and age distribution. Each team elects a pair of team co-captains and chooses an original team name. Team then has a limited time to sign up for the events they wish to swim according to the following rules: 1) No person may swim more than 4 events 2) No event may have more than 4 swimmers from one team 3) No person may swim the same event twice (even though the same event may appear in the lineup more than once) 4) Co-Captains have final say on event assignments (with strong focus on making sure each swimmer gets to swim at least a couple of the events they really want to swim). ---------------------------- TIMING/COUNTING ---------------------------- CTS5 Electronic timing will be used. Swimmers wishing for backup should ask a teammate to man the back-up button and stopwatch supplied during their swim (this is STRONGLY suggested as there are MANY times in meets where the back-up times are used, and without a back-up time you have NO time). For the 500, lap counter paddles will be supplied - each team must furnish people to wield said paddles to their teammates' advantage. ------------------------ SCORING ------------------------ The meet will be scored such that every swim earns points. Scoring will be by place only, NOT by sex or age group. (Seems unfair, I know, BUT when we assign the teams we'll shoot for similar age and sex distributions on each team so it should work out pretty fairly.) ------------------------ RULES ------------------------ Applicable 2004 USMS Rules will be in effect. However, there will be no officials so this is strictly on the honor system. You will be honor-bound to DQ yourself if you break the rules (what a novel idea in 21st Century America) - think "Boy Scout". ------------------------ RESULTS ------------------------ Times/Splits for every heat will be posted immediately after each event, barring timing system malfunctions. They'll be posted by swimmer name, event and lane. ------------------------ PRIZES ------------------------ Winning team gets an assortment of traditional Girl Scout Cookie favorites to share among themselves. Hey - I said this was a no-frills meet. ------------------------ FINAL NOTES ------------------------ Our goal is to have the meet portion of the morning completed in under 2 hours total. With each installment of this meet we'll tweak it to make it better! Your comments are welcome and encouraged!

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Sat, 21 Aug 2004 06:16:53 GMT

Emmett, What a truly nutty, brilliant idea! I am organizing the alumni swim meet for my old college. I figured I'd do a simple sprint pentathalon format, but this seems so much more interesting. I'll check with the coach and see if he has any problems with doing something like this. We did a couple of other things in St. Louis Masters (aka SLAM, great abbreviation) to spice up our meet schedule. Like a lot of USMS "teams," we are an umbrella organization for several different clubs and workout groups in our area. It gives us the ghost of a chance of being able to form a relay. (In the 2002 LCNs SLAM fielded 200 mixed relays because I recruited my father and my sister, both living in Pittsburgh, and we filled out the relays with a couple other SLAM swimmers.) What we wanted to do was revive a little of the rivalry among the SLAM workout groups, and our friends across the river from Illinois Masters, to make our meets more interesting. We simply asked everyone to ID their workout group, and we had a menu with write-ins accepted. We then scored each event by age group similar to a college dual meet (individual events 5-3-1, relays 10-6-2). As it turned out, the key to "winning" was to recruit as many swimmers as possible, since most age group-events rarely went 3 swimmers deep. However, that was partially the point. We wanted to create incentives for more SLAMers to come to local meets. The other idea we used to add a little fun to the winter Mile Meet (a 1000/1650 meet clearly needs something) was to give it a theme. We called it "Open Water Swim in February." I put out the meet fliers using this faux-Jamaican accent. Prior to the start of the meet, we had an ugly Hawaiian shirt/tropical costume contest, with a local swim shop donating some been-on-the-shelf-for-months, white elephant items to give as prizes for the costume contest. Some swimmers brought their children just to compete in the costume contest. We also served gatoraide mixed with pinapple juice, and pineapple chunks on toothpicks. I think some of our stuff is still up on the web site www.swimslam.org Question about your touch-pad "workout" meet. Why couldn't you sanction it as an official (if screwey)meet? Matt

RE: What Is Wrong With Swimming??

Former Member — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 05:09:49 GMT

Well, I agree that there are too many sports that kids do now. In the 1970's, the only other sport most swimmers did was water polo in some parts of the US. I didn't really get a chance to play that because it was all boys in high school and AAU water polo had a handful of teams for women. Also, back in the 1970's women's high school and college programs usually workout less yardage than the male programs. So, girls and women in order to be half decent had to a AAU age group background or at least a novice summer league background. Now the programs are equal or in some cases favor the women, so swimming on a club team is less important. Girls or women still develop earlier than guys in the sport, so going more to high school and college programs doesn't always help female swimmers since they can go to the olympics at 15 or 16 more so than male swimmers and need to swim prior to high school in order to reach the elite level. There are exceptions like Rachel K but more girls are like Miss Hoff.