"not so drag" suit..

RE: "not so drag" suit..

mikeh — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 09:13:43 GMT

Mike, First of all "Rich" will suffice. I do use fins in workout, but for very specific purposes. The only times I would use fins while actually swimming a full stroke is is to work on technique at full race speed. That being the case, I wouldn't use longer more flexible fins during these swims, but short zoomer type fins. This is because quick kick tempo is critical for sprinting and you couldn't get the proper tempo with the longer fins. Personally, I have to limit these all out sprint efforts with fins because they wreck havoc with my lower back. Short bursts (10-15 seconds) of vertical kicking with your arms overhead in a streamline position is great for working on kick temp and is much easier on my back. I do have a softer pair of fins (the blue ones with the orange tips) that I like and use them to help with ankle flexibilty, smooth full length SDK and some lactate work like all out 100's dolfin kick. I have never used long fins with full stroke because I think it messes with your timing, but I would consider doing it if I was rehabing a shoulder. I'm not sure about getting any nervous system advantage sprinting with the fins vis a vis sprinting without them, but you can really work on proper stroke and body position technique at race pace at a lower physical cost if you use them correctly. Hope this helps, Rich Rich, Thank you very much! I will percolate on your answer and may get back. Have a great day.

RE: "not so drag" suit..

Former Member — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 05:10:35 GMT

Here is a simple explanation of the effect of using "drag suits" and the misperceptions about their effectiveness. In an ordinary pool, the water volume relative to the size (and power) of an individual swimmer can be considered as being infinite and propulsion forces are the result of an "Impulse & Reaction" process much like the action of the propeller on a boat in lake. In a large pool, the water is free to flow around the swimmers hands, arms, and legs regardless of the person's net movement through the pool and the effort required (and energy expended) in going through the actual movements of swimming is the same regardless of whether you're moving or not. Simply stated, adding more drag just makes you swim slower, but you are actually expending the exact same amount of effort and energy as if you were allowed to swim faster. I suppose the effect of a drag suit is just psychological because the person is more aware of the difference in speed between swimming with -and without- the drag.

RE: "not so drag" suit..

Muppet — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 04:03:56 GMT

I am a drag-suit wearer and I swim fast in practice. I think some folks do it out of habit and don't really know why, but in my case, I think most everything I do (wearing a drag suit, growing my hair, doing threshold sets, challenge sets, descending distance free...) has some method to the madness. The way I like to look at it, I am trying to perfect my stroke in practice while beating myself up, wearing myself down and slowing myself down (with the drag suit), so that during the last few yards of a sprint or the last 50 of a 500/800/1000/1500/1650/OW swim, I can really turn it on and swim with the same efficiency with which I started the race. My logic is that at that point in the race, i'll be beaten and worn down, but will be so used to swimming in that state, i'll be ok. it seems to work for me. When's the last time you saw someone swimming butterfly - and passing people - at the finish of an exhausting 4.4 mile OW swim?

RE: "not so drag" suit..

orca1946 — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 07:53:07 GMT

I like small paddles over a drag suit.

RE: "not so drag" suit..

Rich Abrahams — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 05:24:55 GMT

Mr. Abrahams, Do you agree with using fins? One theory is that the fins, by forcing your body to go faster than it actually can, "trains" your nervous system to actually go faster without fins. Do you agree with this? Thanks! Mike, First of all "Rich" will suffice. I do use fins in workout, but for very specific purposes. The only times I would use fins while actually swimming a full stroke is is to work on technique at full race speed. That being the case, I wouldn't use longer more flexible fins during these swims, but short zoomer type fins. This is because quick kick tempo is critical for sprinting and you couldn't get the proper tempo with the longer fins. Personally, I have to limit these all out sprint efforts with fins because they wreck havoc with my lower back. Short bursts (10-15 seconds) of vertical kicking with your arms overhead in a streamline position is great for working on kick temp and is much easier on my back. I do have a softer pair of fins (the blue ones with the orange tips) that I like and use them to help with ankle flexibilty, smooth full length SDK and some lactate work like all out 100's dolfin kick. I have never used long fins with full stroke because I think it messes with your timing, but I would consider doing it if I was rehabing a shoulder. I'm not sure about getting any nervous system advantage sprinting with the fins vis a vis sprinting without them, but you can really work on proper stroke and body position technique at race pace at a lower physical cost if you use them correctly. Hope this helps, Rich

RE: "not so drag" suit..

mikeh — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:15:21 GMT

Rick, I didn't say I thought adding resistance was a bad idea. I gave a couple of examples. Another one I like is vertical kicking with a dive brick or other weight. However, wearing a drag suit 100% of all workouts still doesn't make sense to me. Actually, I think that being shaved throughout a training season makes some sense (although way to big a pain to actually do). In college I always had my best/most productive workouts between conference championships and NCAA's when already shaved. I'm thankful I swam before someone thought of panty hose. If you want to add resistance swim harder/faster and learn to be more efficient at higher speeds when the resistance is proportionally greater and proper technique more critical. Bottom line, adding artificial resistance to what you would normally do in a race is a tool to be used appropriately. I like an earlier poster's suggestion to take off the drag suit for a faster challenge sets. That makes much more sense to me. I also think there is a "style" component to wearing these suits which speaks more to swimming culture than to well thought out training protocol. Rich Mr. Abrahams, Do you agree with using fins? One theory is that the fins, by forcing your body to go faster than it actually can, "trains" your nervous system to actually go faster without fins. Do you agree with this? Thanks!

RE: "not so drag" suit..

Former Member — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 14:12:24 GMT

I also think there is a "style" component to wearing these suits which speaks more to swimming culture than to well thought out training protocol. Rich Hellz yeah! The mesh training suit makes my hairy gut look a lot smaller! No more size 28 arena racers with 1" sides and a seam down the back. I wear a suit that screams, "I'm older than your Dad, and slow, but my best from back in the day would still kick your butt today!" I don't miss putting on the near frozen tank tops and gym shorts (and tennies, yes) we wore in the '70s, at 0445 in January. Still, the pocket drag suits could carry 8 cans of beer IIIRC.

RE: "not so drag" suit..

isobel — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 06:57:10 GMT

Jeff, you must have really really really loved swimming to do all that drag training in high school. Wow. Fast swimming! A lotta work! :applaud:

RE: "not so drag" suit..

Former Member — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 06:40:49 GMT

Zounds! So you should perhaps be very knowledgeable, at least for yourself. Did using all this drag make you a stronger swimmer? And now that you don't use all this drag, are you significantly slower, allowing ever-so-slightly for the passing of time? Partly. Its all worked in as "part" of a total program. Coming out of HS I was a 15:44 1500 Freestyler, so a big YES to the part about being significantly slower now. I don't train like a world class distance swimmer and couldn't if I wanted to anyways these days. To me Masters swimming is all about doing what YOU can do in the time that YOU have to train. We are all older now and have lots of responsibilities, families, etc. Even if I won the lottery and hard the time to train HARD all the time, I don't think I'd really want to train like that again. :)

RE: "not so drag" suit..

Former Member — Sun, 31 May 2009 07:16:17 GMT

I think for some of the swimmers a "drag suit" may primarily be a financial/decency issue to get more use from suits that are going see-thru and have rips. The loose nylon "drag" suits live forever but need a better-fitting suit underneath.

RE: "not so drag" suit..

gigi — Sun, 31 May 2009 03:29:38 GMT

An earlier post asked (rhetorically, I think) if cyclists trained on knobby tires or runners trained in combat boots for "drag." I can't speak to what cyclists do, but having lived with runners almost all my life, I can tell you that they all reserved their ultra light race day "flats" strictly for racing and ran in heavier more durable trainers almost all the time during training. Maybe that's no longer true though.....

RE: "not so drag" suit..

isobel — Fri, 29 May 2009 05:34:21 GMT

Some of the resistance training I've done in the past (late 80's, early 90's) include: Panty hose (Drag) Tights (Drag) Umbro Soccer Shorts (Drag suit) Pocket Suits (Drag Suit) Little innertubes on ankles (Pulling sets) Straps on ankles (Pulling sets) T-shirts (swimming/kicking) Running shoes (kicking sets) Weights/Bricks (vertical kicking) Stretch cords (swimming in place & 25's) Milk Buckets with weight on pulleys you pull to the ceiling while swimming Zounds! So you should perhaps be very knowledgeable, at least for yourself. Did using all this drag make you a stronger swimmer? And now that you don't use all this drag, are you significantly slower, allowing ever-so-slightly for the passing of time?

RE: "not so drag" suit..

Former Member — Thu, 28 May 2009 13:15:00 GMT

To me there is a fine line between enough and too much drag. Its an individual sport and not everyone can train the same. That being said, I just wear a speedo endurance brief with one of the Speedo perforated square drag suits on top. I can agree with the logic of wearing a race suit/single suit, etc for maybe test sets, but for training its always two suits for me. Some of the resistance training I've done in the past (late 80's, early 90's) include: Panty hose (Drag) Tights (Drag) Umbro Soccer Shorts (Drag suit) Pocket Suits (Drag Suit) Little innertubes on ankles (Pulling sets) Straps on ankles (Pulling sets) T-shirts (swimming/kicking) Running shoes (kicking sets) Weights/Bricks (vertical kicking) Stretch cords (swimming in place & 25's) Milk Buckets with weight on pulleys you pull to the ceiling while swimming

RE: "not so drag" suit..

osterber — Thu, 28 May 2009 12:43:04 GMT

I've never understood the logic behind wearing a drag suit if your objective is to swim fast. If you want to swim fast in a meet you should swim as fast as possible in practice. Do you shave for each workout? If not, why shave for a meet? Do you taper for each workout? If not, why taper for a meet? When you race a 100 free in a meet, do you do 9 100's on a fast interval right beforehand in the warmup pool? If not, why do 10 x 100 on a fast interval in workout? Practices and training and workouts are about building strength, speed, and technique so that you can perform well in competition. You wear a drag suit for the same reason that baseball players put the 'donut' on their bats when in the warmup circle. The bat feels a lot lighter in the box after that. It's the same reason water polo players often practice with artificially heavy polo balls. Makes the regulation balls feel light. -Rick

RE: "not so drag" suit..

Rich Abrahams — Thu, 28 May 2009 08:28:30 GMT

RE: "not so drag" suit..

orca1946 — Thu, 28 May 2009 03:57:38 GMT

More drag means more work. If that is what makes the workout harder for you , then go for it.

RE: "not so drag" suit..

Former Member — Wed, 27 May 2009 14:24:46 GMT

Wearing Ladies stockings??? That is really a drag thing to do. I used to dress up in drag on Oct 31st Halloween when I was a young boy, I even wore a wig. We always wore the ladies stockings during warm ups for whatever meet we shaved down for, and sometimes the last week of taper...Extra drag and so we wouldn't get used to the feeling of being shaved until we raced.

RE: "not so drag" suit..

Former Member — Wed, 27 May 2009 14:11:44 GMT

I always wear two suits at practice. It is mainly because I have been doing it for many many years. I remember back in the day at my age group club some guys would wear like 5 suits for drag. They would wear suits with the fabric falling apart in some places. The best is that some guys would wear ladies stockings for drag. We always wore the ladies stockings during warm ups for whatever meet we shaved down for, and sometimes the last week of taper...Extra drag and so we wouldn't get used to the feeling of being shaved until we raced.

RE: "not so drag" suit..

mctrusty — Wed, 27 May 2009 11:15:08 GMT

I've got to weigh in with Clyde on this topic. I've never understood the logic behind wearing a drag suit if your objective is to swim fast. If you want to swim fast in a meet you should swim as fast as possible in practice. A drag suit may make you feel you are working harder but I don't feel it's going to make you faster in a race. I just chalk it up as another idiosyncratic wrinkle in our swimming culture. Do road cyclists put on knobby tires or big blousey shirts to add resistance? Do runners wear big heavy boots to run? Sure they would work harder if they did these things but it wouldn't make them better at their sport. In fact, it would alter proper technique and have the opposite effect. I do know there is a growing number of coaches out there that want their swimmers training in high tech body suits as often as possible. I do think there is a time and place to add resistance to training, e.g. a power rack or stretch cords, but this is the exception, not the rule for everyday training. Just my 2 cents worth, Rich Road riders might not do those things but they will ride heavier bikes, do training rides on Trail Ridge road in Rocky Mountain NP, add a lot of resistance to the trainer, etc. Don't you lift a lot? I lift, but it definitely slows me down during the portion of my season that I'm lifting, and it affects my stroke for a while, more than a drag suit does. I see greater effects at the end of the year, though, if I stick with some kind of lifting regime. For me, wearing drag is just like doing swim-specific lifting. As a middle distance swimmer, I like to use them early in the year on A/T swims to build endurance and more strength for the ends of races. For fast swims and test sets, I'll take off the drag and throw a cap on. I don't use drag during the race pace portion of my training cycles in order to let my muscles unload a bit. It's a strategy that works well for me.

RE: "not so drag" suit..

Karen Duggan — Wed, 27 May 2009 11:01:16 GMT

I was always under the impression that if I swim fast in practice with two suits, that I'll swim even faster with a racing suit. Just because you wear two suits doesn't mean you won't swim fast. Of course not as fast as with a racing suit... When we used to shave and taper for the Pac Champs we would wear tights up until Nationals.

RE: "not so drag" suit..

lungbuster — Wed, 27 May 2009 03:04:50 GMT

Road riders might not do those things but they will ride heavier bikes, do training rides on Trail Ridge road in Rocky Mountain NP, add a lot of resistance to the trainer, etc. Don't you lift a lot? I lift, but it definitely slows me down during the portion of my season that I'm lifting, and it affects my stroke for a while, more than a drag suit does. I see greater effects at the end of the year, though, if I stick with some kind of lifting regime. For me, wearing drag is just like doing swim-specific lifting. As a middle distance swimmer, I like to use them early in the year on A/T swims to build endurance and more strength for the ends of races. For fast swims and test sets, I'll take off the drag and throw a cap on. I don't use drag during the race pace portion of my training cycles in order to let my muscles unload a bit. It's a strategy that works well for me. Thank you Mctrusty!! That's what I was looking for! A strategy of when to use a drag suit and when to shed it.

RE: "not so drag" suit..

knelson — Tue, 26 May 2009 06:01:43 GMT

I agree with Rich. Why train to swim differently than you would swim in a race?

RE: "not so drag" suit..

Rich Abrahams — Tue, 26 May 2009 05:20:56 GMT

RE: "not so drag" suit..

Former Member — Mon, 25 May 2009 15:23:46 GMT

Does training with a drag suit benefit all strokes?

RE: "not so drag" suit..

tjrpatt — Mon, 25 May 2009 04:10:02 GMT