Transference and production of skilled movements

RE: Transference and production of skilled movements

swimr4life — Thu, 01 Apr 2004 10:50:54 GMT

Originally posted by Kevin in MD I am also not suprised to hear stories of young people trained in one sport good at anopther. But what that points to is a bit up in the air. Is it that they have trained in one sport or is it that they are good athletes with naturally high kinesthtic awareness and proprioreception. I don't know that answer but wouldn't be surprised to find out either way. I think the answer is that both cardiovascular fitness and high kinesthetic awareness/proprioception contribute to being a good athlete....especially in swimming! I've noticed that the kinesthetic awareness tend to be more important in swimming. When I try to correct the strokes of a child that I coach, I can immediately tell the ones that have a good "mind-body" connection. They listen to what I tell them and usually start doing it immediately. They are the ones that end up improving the fastest and having the best technique in the long run. They "get it". Of course fitness matters too but, I truly believe that EVERY swimmer, regardless of their speed, needs to concentrate on the feel of the water and technique. Even Olympic level athletes do stroke drills to maintain thie "feel" of the water.

RE: Transference and production of skilled movements

Kevin in MD — Wed, 31 Mar 2004 05:34:45 GMT

I appreciate this discussion. In triathlon we see that the corss over effects from other sports are generally limited but do exist. Confining the experience to swimming; most of us are familiar with the idea that working on one's fly or backstroke will help the freestlye. Or breastroke or whatever. I also tend to believe that the benefit of many of our pool toys are in the kinesthetic awareness and proprioreception area. In the pull we have swimming with fists, sculling, paddles and normal sculling all included as part of many folks' workouts at some time or another. I think much of the benefit of these things is the presentation of new sensations. These new experiences seem to help us make better sense of the old ones. You can say the same about the use of pull bouys, fins, drag suits, just about any piece of equipment we use. They all partially fall under a broad umbrella of what we can call motor learning. I went to a seminar recently that talked about this very issue. The idea of how much we concentrate when working out reminds me of a recent article about associators (those who are intently aware of their bodies when competing and dissociators - those whose mind goes elsewhere. Some study showed that the triathletes at the highest levels tended to be associators - keenly aware of what is going on at all times. In my own case, it changes by stroke! I'm an associator in freestyle, dissociator in backstroke and ***. Fly is kind of a different animal alltogether. I am also not suprised to hear stories of young people trained in one sport good at anopther. But what that points to is a bit up in the air. Is it that they have trained in one sport or is it that they are good athletes with naturally high kinesthtic awareness and proprioreception. I don't know that answer but wouldn't be surprised to find out either way.

RE: Transference and production of skilled movements

Former Member — Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:36:00 GMT

Yes, 4 years into this swimming thing and I still fell that if I don't think about what I am doing all the time, then I get sloppy and go nowhere. I don't think it will ever be "second nature" although lately I do feel like I am "getting it " somewhat. Of course the minute I do, someone will watch me and pick apart my stroke.... hey if you do this, and this and this, you will be that much faster!!! Every little tip helps!

RE: Transference and production of skilled movements

Former Member — Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:18:42 GMT

Scansy, that is right. By doing a drill that focuses on a certain aspect of the stroke for 25m and then following this with a 25m swim in this stroke focusing on what the drill was teaching is an excellent idea to teach your body the technique needed to swim efficiently. Repeating the drill 3-4 times is good. You can progress the drills or change the drill to focus on a different aspect. Eg body roll, relaxed recovery, catch, finish, high elbows under water as opposed to drop and slice elbows. With my lanemates we warm up on dryland doing the movements needed in our workout. Lying on a physio ball, using your legs for balance and doing the strokes is excellent. You can also do free and *** kick as well, use your hands for balance. Focus on the movement and then concentrate when doing your warmups. Progress the drills carefully so each progression is mastered before moving on. This morning I was solicited to 'teach' new adult swimmers fly. By doing a series of progressions with fins on, by 45 mins all 3 had the undulation, and timing for breathing and they looked good! We finished the progressions with the end goal of full stroke fly for 1/2 a length. They accomplished 4x 25m full stroke fly with fins in a good techniqe. And were so happy that 'it wasn't that hard to learn' I am so happy to see that keeping your focus and thinking about your body and what it takes to move efficiently through the water is improving swimming ability. Keep up the good work. You will see impressive results.

RE: Transference and production of skilled movements

Former Member — Tue, 30 Mar 2004 06:52:36 GMT

Okay, there is some very interesting stuff in this thread, and every time I wanna concentrate on it I get interrupted. UGH! I'll get to it....

RE: Transference and production of skilled movements

Former Member — Tue, 30 Mar 2004 06:15:50 GMT

Originally posted by dorothyrd Yes, 4 years into this swimming thing and I still fell that if I don't think about what I am doing all the time, then I get sloppy and go nowhere. Don't feel bad, after 20 yrs. of swimming I still (try to anyway) concentrate on every single stroke I take so I don't get sloppy :)

RE: Transference and production of skilled movements

Former Member — Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:43:44 GMT

Originally posted by 2go+h20 ..... I have to say that this Conscious Awarness has reminded me to be more focused and aware. At workouts with my lanemates, we have been focuing on this and have all seen improvements. I have reduced my 100m repeats by an easy 4 sec improvement. I should have been thinking of this all along, but as we go along each day, some things just get looked over. Thanks to the 'discussions' on other threads ;), I did some thinking about how we learn and training effects. So thank you to this board for stimulating my brain and improving my swimming, as well as others. If I am reading this right, you are trying to say that doing drills and swimming without thinking about what you are doing - paying attention to the feel of the water - will not allow a swimmer to improve as much as they could? Do I have that right? If so, I would agree. Both in the long term sense - if you really think about the feel and the proper body position, anchoring the hand, body roll etc over time it will become more natural and you will be able to feel when you are doing it right and when you are not. But also in the short term sense. For example, today I swim and don't think about my stroke enough because I am stressed about work, kids, whatever and I am slower. Then tomorrow I swim and am focused and I swim faster. By as much as 5 seconds over 100 yards. As a relative newcomer to swimming, I am amazed at how much of it is mental and technique compared to running and many other forms of exercise.

RE: Transference and production of skilled movements

Former Member — Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:51:17 GMT

I have been testing my 'theory' for the past 8 weeks with a group of 'new swimmers'. These are members of an adult competitive running group who want to do a triathalon. 3 were almost 'non swimmers' most had very little swimming experience ever. 2 were in a development masters group, and 2 come sporadically to the pool and do their 1km and get out. By incorporating the way in which a skill is acquired and learnt through procedural learning and the use of knesthetic and body awarness training I was so happy with the results. I used various dryland exercises on different pieces of equipment for 30 mins prior so the muscles and mind were focusing. I began with the ABC"s Air exchange, Body Balance and Coordination and timing. Each week I added another drill and skill level if the last one was mastered. I also worked the different energy systems and taught them how to change gears and speed up! (Which for endurance athletes is quite difficult, but by 8 weeks their ability to 'build to fast' in a 25m repeat was impressive.) An added bonus they all learnt, and were sucessfull at, kicking! One lady, who at first was not comfortable with her head in the water, swam in a very tense and stiff 45 degree angle, needing a rest at each end, made dramatic improvements. I did a test set at the beginning, a 20 minute swim in a 25 meter pool. She managed 11x 50's in 20 mins. By the end of the 8 week session (water session was 90 mins) I repeated the test set. I took their total at 20 mins , but to demonstrate how much all 12 had improved, I extended the set to 30 mins. She did 11x50 in 16 minutes and did 22x50 in 30 mins. She held an excellent body position, was getting a body roll, had a much better stroke length and technique was dramatically better. The improvements were literally seen in every swimmer, resulting in happy and motivated swimmers. I have to say that this Conscious Awarness has reminded me to be more focused and aware. At workouts with my lanemates, we have been focuing on this and have all seen improvements. I have reduced my 100m repeats by an easy 4 sec improvement. I should have been thinking of this all along, but as we go along each day, some things just get looked over. Thanks to the 'discussions' on other threads ;), I did some thinking about how we learn and training effects. So thank you to this board for stimulating my brain and improving my swimming, as well as others.

RE: Transference and production of skilled movements

Former Member — Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:57:22 GMT

Originally posted by valhallan Fitness levels are a product of just showing up to workouts every week. Technique is something that has to be acquired. I agree with this - you can improve fitness and endurance by doing drills. And in my case it keeps my mind in the workout as well. I swam for about six months without doing drills or focusing on my stroke at all - when I first started swimming. Then I started doing drills and became faster almost overnight.

RE: Transference and production of skilled movements

Former Member — Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:45:03 GMT

This is certainly an interesting thread. I wonder how many people show up to practice with a specific goal in mind like perfecting technique rather than just grinding out the yardage. A coach can be instrumental in providing better insight should something be quirky, unless you have a very keen "feel" for the water and can modify stroke patterns on your own. This ability to feel the water in my opinion is not common in most swimmers, at least not the late starters. It's better to learn how to become an energy efficient swimmer first and foremost rather than a stronger or faster one. Having better form results in less energy loss, and ultimately leads to faster times. Fitness levels are a product of just showing up to workouts every week. Technique is something that has to be acquired.

RE: Transference and production of skilled movements

Former Member — Sat, 27 Mar 2004 13:29:31 GMT

When you talk about a sport with great body awareness, I think of gymnasts. I think those athletes deal with a lot of agility and body awareness and conditioning. I have observed several young ladies switch from gymnastics to swimming from ages 10-12. These young ladies all turned into excellent swimmers. They have a good feel for the water, their strokes are beautiful, and they mentally are tough and they are strong. The only thing that truly holds them back with the other girls, is they are small and many good swimmers are very large. One young lady is 12 and much much smaller than my almost 11 year old and my daughter is only average. This petite swimmer is holding her own right now, but when she turns 13, I think it will be difficult. She has beautiful strokes, especially fly and I keep encouraging her to do the 200 fly, but she won't. I think her light body weight and almost perfect stroke would be an advantage in the longer events.

RE: Transference and production of skilled movements

Former Member — Sat, 27 Mar 2004 07:13:01 GMT

Yes, that is what I was getting at. That those who have learnt the skills have the ability to retrieve those skills. Don't forget, bad habits and poor technique is also retrievable. Most noticable when fatigued, or when conscious awareness or focus is missing. Which is why it takes so long to correct a poorly learnt technique. And that the training effect can have some transfer effect as well. Hence the variance in ability of 'late bloomers'.(which is an interesting term. How well did each achieve, for how long are huge variables ) Those who have excellent ability to feel a movement, where their body is in space and have trained in another area previous to swimming training can and do do well. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. My idea is to look at how a person achieves in a sport through a complex process of learning. I am trying to get some input as to technique incorporated into each workout versus high mileage and not so many drills to see how this theory sits. Children who come to swimming at say 12, but have done a variety of other sports compared to those who join and haven't participated in other sports. And the same for masters. How is the general learning curve? That is interesting about your track times improving. I would have predicted that, so great to read it did happen. I have seen it happen to athletes I train with as well, and certainly noticed an improvement when I added cross training and dryland as well. I am attempting to stimulate a discussion of the effects of training of all ages stages and abilities. Of looking at training, and what contributes to productive training. Is the ability to grasp a concept easier in a person who has participated in other activites?

RE: Transference and production of skilled movements

Former Member — Sat, 27 Mar 2004 07:12:46 GMT

Dorothyrd, I too have observed how children who have done gymnastics are able to learn a new skill quickly. I encourage younger swimmers to participate in another sport and highly recommend gymnastics because of this. They are trained to be very aware of where they are in space, how timing is critical, how much force is needed to perform a skill, about sequence of joints, and most importantly about focus or conscious awareness. They also do a lot of visualization which is another aspect of training that pays huge dividends. I wonder about body proportion as opposed to height, and as well body type. I have seen what would have been considered 'the least likely body type to achieve' glide gracefully, effortlessly and so efficiently through the water, setting new records as a young person. And how powerful that was for the person. The competition would look over to the blocks, see this body and think "well I've got that one". I loved the reaction at the end. This larger body waiting for the others to finish. I have also seen this with the very small body types. On another note, how many swimmers today made an effort to be "consciously aware" during practise? How did it feel? If you were given feedback from the coach, or you gave intrinsic feedback and the coach gave extrinsic feedback what was the result?

RE: Transference and production of skilled movements

Former Member — Fri, 26 Mar 2004 16:45:41 GMT

And does this ability to retrieve (as in feed forward) play a part in the subsequent ability of the swimmer after a signigicant time away from the sport? I hope I getting at what your trying to ask, but isn't this like riding a bike? Once you learn you it you don't forget it. I'm sure after some time off you may lose some of the skills and techniques you need for swimming, but I never knew anyone who had to relearn the basics. After several yearsoff I was able to get back into the pool and swim a few laps without being taught how to swim again. And what about a person who developed an excellent trainging regime in another sport during their developing years (as in youth), that challenged all energy systems and took up swimming later in life. I think any training in any sport will carry over in some way. I am a great beleiver in cross training. I did track all four years in high school. I did not join swimming until my junior year. After swimming my junior year my track times improved dramatically. I was able to take two whole minutes off of my 2 mile the first meet of the season. If swimming carries over into running I would think that other sports in some way or another would carry over into swimming. I could be way off base but this is just what I thought about it.:confused:

RE: Transference and production of skilled movements

Former Member — Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:55:14 GMT

I think there is a a strong argument about what a body has the ability to do. Finding a person with the natural apptitude for the sport and developing them is important. Keeping them with a fire and passion for training is another intergral part. (Plus a strong work ethic and the ability to focus and train well.) Different sports require an ability to perform the movements with a different use of each muscle. These muscles need to have either a greater percentage of fast twitch fibres, eg sprinters, basketball players, slow twitch fibres eg endurance athletes, or a mix. Given the different body make up of each individual could explain why some bodies can be best suited to a particular sport or multisports. With regard to Kinesthesia and proprioception and body awareness: Kinesthesia and proprioception used to be used synonymously. However thanks to recent technologies and research this is not an accurate description of what is happening in the brain. Kinesthesia is the concious awareness of the body movement in space, including rate, timing and force of a movement. Kinesthetic awareness includes information from the vestibular, cutaneous, muscle and joint receptors. Proprioception is connected with how we process what our body can do kinesthetically ie proprioceptive feedback and perception of joint and body movement. Body awareness requires concious connection to the sensory feedback in order to create a map of the body in space. Much of our body awareness or kinesthesia is actually derived from part of the feed forward mechanism also known as internal feed back. How we feel the water is a measure of how these three mechanisms work in each individual. The key difference is Concious awareness. NOt all proprioception is conciously processed. So when learning and refining a skill, a person needs to be able to develop their ability to feel a movement and understand what they are feeling when performing this movement. Once this has been established then a person will be able to either transfer or learn a new skill with more ease than a person who has not developed this. Don't forget that producing a movement also depends on the range of movement and strength to perform the action. Balance in all muscle groups, and muscles having a good length, anad appropriate training effects contribute to a more efficient movement. I would think if a person has a well developed ability to learn and process a skill, that given the make up of their body will be able to learn and achieve in a different sport. Perhaps that is why there is a difference in ability.

RE: Transference and production of skilled movements

Former Member — Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:24:32 GMT

People were not swimming 90,000 to 100,000 yards or meters in the early 1970's because goggles didn't come available unitl late 1971 for most swimmers. Many of the top teams by 1972, had few swimmers swim over 10,000 yards a day. How do I know because I was on a team with Shirley Babashoff. Who still didn't train 90,000 to 100,000. until 1974. It was Mission Viejo's Mark S that introduced the 90,000 to 100,000 yard workouts and she was on Mission by late 1973.

RE: Transference and production of skilled movements

Former Member — Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:16:45 GMT

Hola Kiwi (hope not too offensive) I think motor learning and motor control play a good role in developing a swimmer. A term that I am aware of is Kinesthic awareness, this being aware of what your body is doing (I have a poor kinesthic awareness when it comes to golf, I don't think I lift my head when I swing, yet everything wrong in my swing coordinates with this flaw). In line with your thought, since my belief of technique is important are individuals better suited to be swimmers or whatevers, not just body type muscle build but some ingrain feel for the water or whatever the task is. Much as Nolan Ryan was destined to be a fast ball pitcher, his awareness to throw a 100mph pitch is still to this day almost unmatched. So in regards to relearning the skill after a lay off, I think those people have a predisposition to learn or relearn those skill. When I started back swimming was when things were changing in strokes,TI-balance, wave breastroke, new backstroke flip turns were all being introduced, and I was able to pick these new swim skills up rather rapidly - though they were a certain departure of the skills I learned when I swam age group - so maybe I had a predisposition to aquiring these skills (not sure, but just a thought) I have seen both sides of the spectrum in regards to new swimmers - those that egt in the water and fight with it for several months regardless of how we work on their skills and others who after a few weeks have pretty much mastered basic swim technique and ready to move on. Would definitely be interested in hearing other opinions/explanations.

RE: Transference and production of skilled movements

Former Member — Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:08:55 GMT

Well, maybe Ion should compare himself to Shane Gould who is about two years older than him. She swam a 2:20 last summer in 200 meter free. Also, she can swim Im something that Ion can't do. Ion will say the comparsion is unfair because she won three events at the 1972 olympics.

RE: Transference and production of skilled movements

Former Member — Fri, 26 Mar 2004 12:36:52 GMT

I reposted the information above incase there is some interest in this topic. The other thread is so active, that my post which I placed earlier today, is already a page and growing behind. Just curious, but does anyone out there think the motor learning and motor control aspect plays a part in the development of a swimmer? And does this ability to retrieve (as in feed forward) play a part in the subsequent ability of the swimmer after a significant time away from the sport? And what about a person who developed an excellent training regime in another sport during their developing years (as in youth), that challenged all energy systems and took up swimming later in life. Do you think the training effect --- dare I say V02Max, --- can aid the person to adapt and train well in a new sport? Any thoughts?

RE: Transference and production of skilled movements

Jim Clemmons — Fri, 26 Mar 2004 08:05:33 GMT

Specificity and generality in sport says (something to the effect) that if you want to learn to do something well, you have to train (train well) at the specific item you want to do well in. You won't become a good, say, baseball player by playing basketball. I'm sure you won't become a good swimmer by training on a track running although there may be some minor benefit (cardio or whatever). You also won't become a good swimmer by spending too much time in the forums, typing away, instead of training:D (reference to the "other" thread). Jim