Something I have never seen

RE: Something I have never seen

Former Member — Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:27:01 GMT

I tried this again last night, I'm not so sure it's for me. My arms are only just long enough and I think it is easier at speed to not do a flip turn. It will be interesting to see if anyone starts to do flip turns for ***.

RE: Something I have never seen

Former Member — Tue, 09 Mar 2004 17:10:39 GMT

Well, the woman mention in the ***-flip is very tall at 6'1". So as Wayne mention she has a long reach out. Also, as a kid I use to swim 50 fly the same times as 50 free. I wonder if I could have done fly faster with a flip.

RE: Something I have never seen

Former Member — Tue, 09 Mar 2004 16:28:31 GMT

Hey Wayne: Back then.... and in the Corps..."WE" could still fit in our Dress Blues......Gosh, if I could do that now I'd look like a pencil...:D

RE: Something I have never seen

Former Member — Tue, 09 Mar 2004 14:41:03 GMT

Officials are great, they know the rules a whole lot better that the swimmers. They keep up to date, Masters rules usually follow USA and FINA rules. In our LMSC, we make sure each official has the latest rule book, because we give them one:D Just call us pro-active, but not DQ'd

RE: Something I have never seen

Former Member — Tue, 09 Mar 2004 14:27:58 GMT

Years ago as a 15 or 16 year old, I got DQ for having my hands not touch parellel in the *** and fly. I'm concern that officials judging masters meets may not be updated in the changes in the rules.

RE: Something I have never seen

Former Member — Tue, 09 Mar 2004 13:38:40 GMT

Actually the previous rules specifically required the hands to touch level, the new wording allows the hands to be at different levels so long as the shoulders are in line with the waters surface. So one hand can be lower than the other, so long as they arrive at the wall simultaneously.:D One hand goes lower while the other goes towards the ears. So touching one hand lower than the other is naturally helpful in the breaststroke and butterflu turns. Breaststroke has always been a stroke of rules, subtle rule changes can be huge.

RE: Something I have never seen

knelson — Tue, 09 Mar 2004 06:53:05 GMT

Originally posted by breastroker .4 Turns - At each turn, the touch shall be made with both hands simultaneously at, above, or below the water surface, and the shoulders shall be in line with the water surface. Maybe I'm dumb, but I thought you were talking about turning with the hands NOT level. How does this jibe with the above quoted rule? Doesn't the "shoulders in line" thing pretty much mean your hands needs to be in line, too?

RE: Something I have never seen

Former Member — Mon, 08 Mar 2004 16:42:16 GMT

Interesting idea. Since Lefty saw this can he give us a more complete report. First, did she flip ALL of her turns? Second, did she touch the wall with her hands slightly below the water? For those breaststrokers that have experimented with some of the training techniques popularized by Mike Barrowman can report that you get incredible push off when flipping breaststroke turns (of course in this training routine you don't touch the wall with your hands) but you also pay a pretty good price in terms of oxygen debt (actually CO2 build up). This is pure speculation but I guess that she touched with her hands just below the surface of the water and didn't flip all of her turns. You also have to be careful that when you come off the wall on your back that you return to the *** before your first pulldown or you will be DQ'd.

RE: Something I have never seen

Former Member — Mon, 08 Mar 2004 14:43:34 GMT

I can do it, though I have only tried a couple of times. For whatever reason, though I'm not flexable, I can ball up pretty well and can flip pretty close to the wall. I think I tried it after someone here said that it was allowed in the rules. I don't think it helped me, but then I only tried it a couple of times.

RE: Something I have never seen

Former Member — Mon, 08 Mar 2004 09:00:39 GMT

The brush turn is the only way this turn works. If you poke at the wall your momentum carries you into the wall, you need to brush the wall and keep the hands moving down fast and tight so that you end up on your back. Pushing off on your back, then twisting immediately "past the vertical towards the ***" makes this a fast turn when done right. Thank you for reminding me about the brush turn. I am getting old, CRS!

RE: Something I have never seen

Former Member — Mon, 08 Mar 2004 07:39:00 GMT

The turns that I've seen used by the faster swimmers is either one hand lower OR a brush turn where the swimmer rapidly brushes the wall with one hand thereby dipping the shoulder. In both cases, obviously, the lower hand or "brushed" hand is left for left rotation and right for right rotation. I think the brush touch is the fastest for fly/breaststroker and I've seen some swimmers use it when touching hands at the same time but in different planes. It helps swimmer rotate their bodies earlier in the turn but does raise the risk of a DQ since it can seem "odd" to less experienced stroke/turn judges who might think the touch is non-simultaneous.

RE: Something I have never seen

Former Member — Mon, 08 Mar 2004 07:25:41 GMT

Since the turns are exactly alike, butterflyers will gain as much as breaststrokers. Most butterflyers are taller, so they may have longer arms and able to flip their turns. Also butterfly can take advantage of the deeper underwater dolphins after the turns. I am surprised this is just now starting to develope, I predicted this back in 1998:p USMS 101.2 BREASTSROKE .2 Stroke - From the beginning of the first arm stroke after the start and after each turn, the body shall be kept on the *** and both shoulders shall be in line with the water surface. The arms shall move simultaneously and in the same horizontal plane without any alternating movement. … .4 Turns - At each turn, the touch shall be made with both hands simultaneously at, above, or below the water surface, and the shoulders shall be in line with the water surface. The head may be submerged after the last arm pull prior to the touch, provided it breaks the surface of the water at some point during any part of the last complete or incomplete stroke cycle preceding the touch. Once a touch has been made, the swimmer may turn in any manner desired. The shoulders must be at or past the vertical toward the *** when the swimmer leaves the wall and the form prescribed in .2 must be attained from the beginning of the first arm stroke. How does this affect the breaststroke turn? Well I have been telling everyone for the last couple of years that they could shave a tenth off each turn by allowing one hand to touch lower than the other. Well, make that .2 to .3 seconds on EACH turn. Masters experimented with dipping the shoulder at the turn, it is MUCH faster. I recommend twisting the shoulders at the turn, and having the hands about 10 inches apart, one over the other. The way you turn to best, should be the lower hand. I still recommend the Moffat turn, *** to back, twisting over to *** again. This rule remains: The shoulders must be at or past the VERTICAL toward the *** when the swimmer leaves the wall and the form prescribed in .2 must be attained from the beginning of the first arm stroke. I call this the Kristine Quance rule because she so blantly disregarded this rule in the 1996 Olympic Trials. She did not turn past the vertical until her feet were past the "T" on the underwater line. There is no excuse for not practicing correctly EVERY workout! The amazing thing is this greatly increases the chance someone will do a FLIP turn in a breaststroke race. Up until the early 60's we had to touch the wall on the freestyle turn. As a young breaststroker I practiced breaststroke flip turns, but then our head could not go underwater, and we had to touch evenly. Come on coaches, lets see who will do the first legal breaststroke flip turn in competition. Boy, I love to tweek the rule makers. Reminds me of the days when they let me tweek them in the 200 fly, kicking the middle 100 all breaststroke kick with NO arm pull. I was so refreshed, I was able to sprint home doing the butterfly correctly.

RE: Something I have never seen

Former Member — Mon, 08 Mar 2004 06:56:12 GMT

Originally posted by osterber I watched that race last night on my TiVo. What intrigued me... I went back and watched the turn frame-by-frame... I'm not convinced that her right hand actually touched the wall. But it was a long camera angle. -Rick Rick, I believe that there was a ref standing right over her. (and) I don't see how she would have any advantage of having her body tilted one way or the other. Anyhow, I plan on doing this turn at a meet later this month, in the 50 fly. I'll bring a copy of the rule book just to be safe.

RE: Something I have never seen

Former Member — Mon, 08 Mar 2004 06:39:58 GMT

seltzer is correct that you can get great pushoffs from flipping the turns. The only reason Mike Barrowman did not flip his turns is the rules did not allow for this. Since 1998 small nuances in the rules allow for this flip. I did it in high school in the 60's, of course I was quite skinney then. It would be nice to have long arms, not my case. I always predicted women could do this as they are more flexible. College meets, even championship meets are poorly officiated, they are allowed to get away with subtle rule violations, that Masters and USA swimming would not let you get away with. I believe the lady probably did touch with both hands, just she should have had one hand lower than the other to facillatate the flip. Also it is helpfull to touch way below the waters surface, to help the flip. Nothing I like better is a great thread, esp. if it is about breaststroke :D

RE: Something I have never seen

osterber — Mon, 08 Mar 2004 01:21:05 GMT

I watched that race last night on my TiVo. What intrigued me... I went back and watched the turn frame-by-frame... I'm not convinced that her right hand actually touched the wall. But it was a long camera angle. -Rick

RE: Something I have never seen

Former Member — Fri, 05 Mar 2004 10:25:24 GMT

Originally posted by laineybug I must be visualizing this wrong... if you touch with both hands aren't you way to close to the wall to do a freestyle flip turn? Not if you have nine foot gorilla arms.

RE: Something I have never seen

Former Member — Thu, 04 Mar 2004 10:57:42 GMT

yes flip turns after both hands touching seem like a good head smack in the wall followed by some deep plunging whilst watching as you droop to last position...is it really not legal to flip turn without touching both hands..if so then free style should incorporate a one hand touch before their flip turn to even up stroke speed variation...!!!what ...this is too intillectual for me this time o night!!!!!

RE: Something I have never seen

Former Member — Thu, 04 Mar 2004 10:44:19 GMT

Larry Day flipped all three turns back in 1969 at the Michigan High School State Meet while winning the 100 fly. I assumed he did this also while swimming at the University of Michigan. Larry has long arms to help him achieve this... But breaststroke is another story. Like Wayne, I'd love to see that too.

RE: Something I have never seen

Former Member — Thu, 04 Mar 2004 09:04:21 GMT

I must be visualizing this wrong... if you touch with both hands aren't you way to close to the wall to do a freestyle flip turn?

RE: Something I have never seen

Former Member — Thu, 04 Mar 2004 08:40:02 GMT

Yes. I used to do this in high school, xxx years ago. In fact the new rules help greatly. Look at www.breaststroke.info/BRST9.htm From 1998, "The amazing thing is this greatly increases the chance someone will do a FLIP turn in a breaststroke race. Up until the early 60's we had to touch the wall on the freestyle turn. As a young breaststroker I practiced breaststroke flip turns, but then our head could not go underwater, and we had to touch evenly. Come on coaches, lets see who will do the first legal breaststroke flip turn in competition. Boy, I love to tweek the rule makers. Reminds me of the days when they let me tweek them in the 200 fly, kicking the middle 100 all breaststroke kick with NO arm pull. I was so refreshed, I was able to sprint home doing the butterfly correctly. " I would love to see a video of her turn. I applaud the stroke and turn judges, they know the rules.