to all you buterflyers out there....

RE: to all you buterflyers out there....

Former Member — Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:18:50 GMT

Maybe it wasn't a rule but I don't remember 3 or more kicks in those days. I started out in novice swimming which even allowed for *** kick on the fly. I swam novice starting in 1969 and quitting AAU in 1975.

RE: to all you buterflyers out there....

swimr4life — Thu, 26 Feb 2004 12:01:19 GMT

When I swam fly in the mid to late 70's you were not limited to 2 kicks off the wall. I was never told that rule nor was I DQ'ed. The rule must have changed before then?:confused:

RE: to all you buterflyers out there....

Former Member — Wed, 25 Feb 2004 15:52:33 GMT

I read an article with Misty Hyman's trainer about that sideways kick. It's based on the way fish swim. The sideways motion creates eddies that result in low pressure areas, which in turn reduce drag. It doesn't work the same in an up and down kick because gravity causes the eddies to fall away so that they aren't symmetrical and are in the wrong place in relation to the body to reduce drag. To develop it, the coach went along beside her in a boat dropping dye in the water and watching the eddy patterns. They adjusted the stroke until they got the drag down. There was a great quote that went something like, "She's going to go into oxygen debt, but we'll train her to deal with the pain." At the time the technique debuted in competition, the only applicable rule was that the swimmer had to take one stroke above the water. She swam the length of the pool on her side, surfaced half a length ahead of everyone else, did one stroke into the wall and turned. I believe some of the other coaches protested, but there was nothing they could do. Hyman was then accused of unsportsmanlike conduct: there was talk that even though such a technique wasn't technically illegal, it still went against the spirit of the event. I like people who buck the rules, and I like people who find interesting ways around the established norms also. I had to laugh when I read that. :D

RE: to all you buterflyers out there....

Former Member — Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:44:50 GMT

Well, Hyman and other swimmers are able to get vertical and be effective with it. Those of us developed our ablities in the 70's its easier to do the kick on the stomach. Back in the 1970's when I swam only 2 kicks underwater were allowed,so they change the rules in the 1980's.

RE: to all you buterflyers out there....

Former Member — Wed, 25 Feb 2004 06:13:33 GMT

I might add that a solid body-dolphin (admittedly a horizontal one, not a vertical) is at the core of an effective butterfly. At the risk of becoming a broken record, to read more about it, go to www.h2oustonswims.org and in the "Articles" section there are two excellent pieces by Emmett Hines "Slip Slid'n' Away" and "Vive le Papillon." Shakey, I hear you on people who push the rules. The real irony is that the butterfly itself was created in reaction to a breaststroker who noticed that the rules as they then existed permitted arm recovery over the water. The traditionalists howled in protest, and much to the surprise of everyone, the committee/compromise solution ended up being a creative win/win proposition. We got a new stroke--the fly-- and a rewrite the rules to maintain breaststroke in the form we all know and love. BTW, I was also astounded to hear a breaststroke kick is permitted off of a turn in fly. I would have bet any amount of money that was not the case. Matt

RE: to all you buterflyers out there....

Former Member — Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:06:21 GMT

Look to the 2004 United States Masters Swimming Code Of Regulations And Rules Of Competition, rule no. 101.3.3 regarding the butterfly kick: "All up and down movements of the legs and feet must be simultaneous. The position of the legs or the feet need not be on the same level, but they shall not alternate in relation to one another. The breaststroke or whip kick may be used exclusively or interchangeably with the dolphin kick while doing the butterfly stroke at any time during the race. However, when the breaststroke or whip kick is used, the arms must be recovered over the top of the water with each breaststroke or whip kick, except after the last such kick before the turn or finish. A scissors kicking movement is not permittted." carl

RE: to all you buterflyers out there....

Former Member — Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:09:52 GMT

For Butterfly, you can use either dolphin or breaststroke kicks off the wall. Can you really use breaststroke kick off the wall in Butterfly? I know there was some debate on this a while back. Michael

RE: to all you buterflyers out there....

knelson — Tue, 24 Feb 2004 06:14:01 GMT

Originally posted by Scansy Is the dolphin kick on the side faster than on the stomach? What about on the back? I think the theory is the standard up-and-down kick sends more wave action against the bottom of the pool, so kicking on your side is slightly faster.

RE: to all you buterflyers out there....

Rob Copeland — Tue, 24 Feb 2004 04:17:36 GMT

After the start and after each turn, only one breaststroke kick is allowed prior to the arm pull that brings the swimmer to the surface. You can do as many dolphin kicks as you want, provided you come up before the 15 meter mark. I have found that dolphin kicking on my side or back is faster. When I kick on my stomach, the natural lifting action of the dolphin kick combined with normal buoyancy brings me to the surface unless I’m in a down angle position. However, for butterfly, your shoulders must be at or past the vertical toward the *** off after the start and turn, so no kicking on your back and kick on your side at your own risk.

RE: to all you buterflyers out there....

Former Member — Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:53:47 GMT

Thanks for your reply Janis. I wanted to know for butterfly. i thought i put it in my first post. Thanks again:D

RE: to all you buterflyers out there....

Former Member — Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:46:59 GMT

What type of kick you can use at the start and turns depends on what stroke you are doing. If you are doing breaststroke you must use the breaststroke kick in a particular order to the arm stroke. If you are doing butterfly you must use the butterfly kick- as many as you want before, during, or after the stroke. Backstroke has no particular kick nor does freestyle and you may do what ever you wish.

RE: to all you buterflyers out there....

Former Member — Mon, 23 Feb 2004 14:29:47 GMT

Is the dolphin kick on the side faster than on the stomach? What about on the back?

RE: to all you buterflyers out there....

Former Member — Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:34:18 GMT

When I went to a swim camp a lotta years ago. Misty Hyman was just starting out that dolphin kick on her side (what pretty much made her famous). We were watching her do it I told myself I would try that in my next meet. It's totally awesome. Till they put that ban on it (the same in backstroke) where you could only go so far down the pool before you had to come up. That is the fastest kick I've ever had. Even faster than my flutter kick. Might play around with that one. Just takes a lot of lung capacity. It's fun too cause you can see all these people behind you doing the whole stroke and it's just funny. Kelli,

RE: to all you buterflyers out there....

Rob Copeland — Mon, 23 Feb 2004 02:09:38 GMT

For Butterfly, you can use either dolphin or breaststroke kicks off the wall. Flutter kick is a no-no.