improving butterfly

RE: improving butterfly

Former Member — Sun, 17 May 2009 16:29:36 GMT

Butterfly in clean, out clean, no hitting the water during the recovery. During a race of 50M or 100m breathe when necessary.

RE: improving butterfly

isobel — Sun, 17 May 2009 11:44:02 GMT

Hmm, every coach I've had has wanted me to breathe every stroke in fly and BR, even in practice. But I'll try this drill. I got this drill I think from GoSwimWeekly. I breathe every stroke when I do fly, but I like this no-breath drill because it lets me undulate longer without interrupting, and lets me feel the breaststroke undulation too. Plus, for some reason I just like how it feels. I don't know if not breathing for a drill like this is a good or bad thing. I slept through our first long course practice this morning (but I'm going over to the pool later to swim on my own, really!). This is because I keep staying up late listening to YouTube videos or reading this forum (excuses excuses). However, in a sick way, I really like this Richie Havens song, for anyone who decides to break up with the fly: YouTube - Richie Havens - I Can't Make it Any More I obviously listen to the wrong music, but the footage of the kids in the audience is very touching to me, and I'm thinking, did they do age-group swimming? And the baby on the mama's back, is that Pipes-Nielson (sp)? Or would that make her too old/young? Which amazing swimmer is it? Or ex-AIG excecutive? As far as Richie's lines about "where do I belong," I'm thinking, OK, maybe the 500 free, the 1000 free (these are my best events). Or perhaps I should listen to this song and then get angry and say no way and fight all the more to break 6:30 in the 400 IM (SCY). That's my goal. I need to make it clear I am not an elite swimmer, but I'm all for improving, and for some reason, I love the 400 IM. :)

RE: improving butterfly

ViveBene — Sun, 17 May 2009 02:48:49 GMT

Yay! I found the glide in fly. That gave me time to think about "kick the arms in and kick the arms out." :)

RE: improving butterfly

Former Member — Sat, 16 May 2009 12:31:18 GMT

Has anybody had any great moments of enlightenment. No amount of drill work seems to make a huge difference. Any ideas ? YouTube - How to Swim Butterfly Stroke by JimmyDShea

RE: improving butterfly

ViveBene — Sat, 16 May 2009 08:01:14 GMT

Ahelee - Thank you! "Kick the arms in and kick the arms out" - probably difficult to translate mental imagery. I'll think about kicking the arms next time I'm practicing fly.

RE: improving butterfly

Ahelee Sue Osborn — Sat, 16 May 2009 07:44:30 GMT

Hmm, every coach I've had has wanted me to breathe every stroke in fly and BR, even in practice. But I'll try this drill. Ahelee (or anyone), can you speak to the glide in fly? Where/when does it occur? Thanks. I think the "butterfly glide" comes when you're pressing your chest as the arms have dropped into the entry. I work with a many novice swimmers who start off afraid of butterfly - like I still find myself at times. But I have a little talk for them explaining that it is perfectly legal butterfly to dolphin kick all the way across the pool and only take a full stroke of butterfly when you need to breathe. So think about it. Push off the wall - SDK. Arms out in front until you need a breath. Then spread the hands to begin the press of hands & arms to pull a single butterfly stroke. Let the power of the press lift your body without moving your head, just enough to to clear your chin to breathe. Keep your eyes low looking at the water right in front of you. Finish the pull and leave the hands out in front slightly apart - dolphin kick until you need another breath and repeat. When practicing this long gliding fly stroke and dolphin kick try to feel the chest pressing while the (straight wrist & elbow/thumbs down) arms are "floating" slightly above on the water surface. Also, when practicing a single arm butterfly drill - breathing to the side: Be sure that after you breath to the side, return your body to a flat, fully face down position, arm extended and press your chest to complete the dolphin body motion and arm pull. Maybe someone else can describe this better than I have here. I have done a lot of this glide fly to practice pressing my chest down and forward with my arms riding higher to smooth out my choppy fly. Breathing seems to be individual, but I teach novices and use myself - 2 Up, 1 Down. Or 2 strokes with a breath / 1 stroke without. I need alot of air on fly except for a sprint 50 or the 1st lap in the 100 IM. Also love the old Misty Hyman dolphin kick instruction of "kick the arms in and kick the arms out". My problem is remembering to kick my arms out... and so my way too long legs start dragging on the bottom of the pool. I feel funny writing about butterfly since I am sure not an expert. Anyone can chime in here!

RE: improving butterfly

ViveBene — Sat, 16 May 2009 07:10:11 GMT

I like this drill a lot, but in reverse order, two strokes of fly, two pulls of breaststroke, all with only one breath, come up to breathe as your arms get ready to pull the fly again. I do 25s of this drill and it seems to (a) get me completely out of breath, but (b) get me to move continuously with the dolphin kick/body undulation. . . . Hmm, every coach I've had has wanted me to breathe every stroke in fly and BR, even in practice. But I'll try this drill. Ahelee (or anyone), can you speak to the glide in fly? Where/when does it occur? Thanks.

RE: improving butterfly

isobel — Sat, 16 May 2009 06:03:04 GMT

Alastair, When you are ready to try a little whole body swimming, try this drill. Swim two strokes of breaststroke, then two strokes of fly, and keep alternating by 2's. I use this to make my breaststroke somewhat...less offensive than it would be otherwise. This drill helps but a body wave/udulation in your breaststroke, and a glide in your fly. Good luck, let us know how you do. Matt I like this drill a lot, but in reverse order, two strokes of fly, two pulls of breaststroke, all with only one breath, come up to breathe as your arms get ready to pull the fly again. I do 25s of this drill and it seems to (a) get me completely out of breath, but (b) get me to move continuously with the dolphin kick/body undulation. I keep working at the fly. Also, I seem to have noticed that a wide hand entry and a somewhat wide start to my pull spares my shoulders. I can feel when I am pulling in the wrong place for my body, versus where it feels nice and solid. Still not a speedo, though. As I say, I keep working the fly. I like the challenge.

RE: improving butterfly

Ahelee Sue Osborn — Sat, 16 May 2009 05:41:35 GMT

I find these helpful: Good stuff Nancy... Might sound basic but these are huge!

RE: improving butterfly

Former Member — Fri, 15 May 2009 14:47:43 GMT

I find these helpful: Focus on pressing the chest down on entry while leaving the arms/hands nearer to the water surface. It gets the hips up without much kicking. With the hips up you can be "on top of your stroke" which is easier on the shoulders. Use the back muscles and not just your triceps to finish the pull. Those back muscles don't tire as fast as triceps do. Keep your chin in the water on breathing and don't jut it out (easier to breathe). If your body rhythm is good you may find you're rising enough to breathe every stroke without penalty, just like in breaststroke. I find swimming breaststroke with fins and a single dolphin kick a great way to coordinate the body rhythm with some carryover to swimming fly.

RE: improving butterfly

Former Member — Thu, 14 May 2009 16:24:52 GMT

Thanks for the great advice!! I myself just started seriously swimming a few yearsas I had a bad experience with it. When I was a kid I was diagnosed with learning disabilities and i think I never got the slight nuances of swimming at camp so i never progressed to the next level, so I turned 33 and said i wanted to prove it to myself and never looked back. I never had learned the butterfly until I joined a master program and I LOVE IT! IT'S MY FAVORITE STROKE. Just to do it and to watch it its breathtaking and amazing. I just love swimming Seamus

RE: improving butterfly

Former Member — Fri, 22 Dec 2006 17:42:04 GMT

Here, Rich, I resurrected a thread just for you to learn fly. It seems that fins are advocated. Now, I'm off to read those articles. Butterfly - I just started incorporating butterfly into my daily workouts. My knees give me no trouble doing the dolpin kick. My arms are no longer dragging through the water. I am feeling like a flyer again. Even though I am a slower flyer than I was it feels good to be back at it again. My only fear on reading all this about the hips and thrusting is that it may aggravate my lumbar disc/pelvic problems...I'll skip serious work on it for now. It's odd the natural outward turnning of my feet and knees lend themselves to breaststroke, but also to cause low-back/pelvic issues. Add to that some weightlifing injuries, some whiplash, and wear and tear over the 20's...it's no wonder I have a dodgy back...I may try 25 fly tonight for a laugh. I'll let you know. the lifeguards are cool at our Y and you can ask them for stroke advice...which wil make it easier to laugh with them when I look like a dork.

RE: improving butterfly

Former Member — Fri, 22 Dec 2006 17:16:21 GMT

Butterfly - I just started incorporating butterfly into my daily workouts. My knees give me no trouble doing the dolpin kick. My arms are no longer dragging through the water. I am feeling like a flyer again. Even though I am a slower flyer than I was it feels good to be back at it again. Never ever did butterfrog and never never will it is one useless stroke.

RE: improving butterfly

The Fortress — Fri, 22 Dec 2006 11:47:32 GMT

Alastair, Emmett Hines has written two fabulous articles on butterfly. Go to this web site http://www.h2oustonswims.org/ Click on the Articles tab. Read the articles "Slip Slid'n' Away" and "Vive Le Papillon" (in that order). Get yourself a pair of fins, and follow his advice. Some essential points to remember: - Swim fly with your body, not your arms. - I actually think of initiating my kick at my shoulders (versus the knees or the hips). - Keep your head in a neutral position (i.e. don't tilt your head up to breath), and breath as early in your arm recovery as possible, then get your head back down. If you have really good body udulation and head position, you can breath every stroke without messing up your stroke. - Try putting a little glide in your stroke after your recover your arms. Pause a split second before initiating the next arm pull. When you are ready to try a little whole body swimming, try this drill. Swim two strokes of breaststroke, then two strokes of fly, and keep alternating by 2's. I use this to make my breaststroke somewhat...less offensive than it would be otherwise. This drill helps but a body wave/udulation in your breaststroke, and a glide in your fly. If you want some more ideas, or inspiration, try this article about the crazed individual who swims a 5K open water swim butterfly the whole way www.thomasboettcher.org/.../default.htm Finally, Gareth are you out there? He is a regular contributor to this discussion board, a UK subject, and a coach who teaches a swimming style consistent with this method of fly. If he lives near you, he may be able to give you some pointers. Good luck, let us know how you do. Matt Here, Rich, I resurrected a thread just for you to learn fly. It seems that fins are advocated. Now, I'm off to read those articles.

RE: improving butterfly

Former Member — Sat, 04 Jun 2005 09:47:57 GMT

Exactly!

RE: improving butterfly

Former Member — Fri, 03 Jun 2005 08:03:32 GMT

ok, another question about butterfly.As anybody knows when you see a good butterflier his butt will break the surface on the hands-entering-the-water-phase kick.So I had a friend of mine watch me swim fly and he told me that my butt does not break the surface.I tried hard but it still was not happening, although from his words it was just about to break the surface.What does that mean?Do I not have enough body movement?or...???Any ideas?

RE: improving butterfly

Former Member — Fri, 03 Jun 2005 05:21:37 GMT

For every question about butterfly I have a picture of Michael Phelps :D In my experience the key to getting your hips up and breaking the surface with your butt is to press your chest down. This should not be confused with diving down with your hands and arms, note the depth of Phelps' hands, chest, and hips:

RE: improving butterfly

Former Member — Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:44:47 GMT

When I was at my best for fly I only did a 100 fly per workout and a couple of lengths of kicking. These were done at max speed using good form. George

RE: improving butterfly

Former Member — Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:36:27 GMT

Swimonandon is so right about fly being a whole body stroke. I've been trying to get deeper with my head and hands. I've noticed that at times this causes me to have a very small third kick. It is maybe less than 2 inches. I don't know where it came from. I take far fewer strokes when I try this and I really feel the glide of my body moving trough the water. Are are other really good video sites. One I won't mention because you all will use it up too quickly. the ohter is through Western Austrialia's wedsite.

RE: improving butterfly

Former Member — Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:39:36 GMT

When I was trying to figure out fly someone told me to lead with my head. Your head should go into the water before your arms do. But also your head should do the movement you want your whole body to do. Watch underwater clips of Phelps or any other good flyer. Their whole body does the undulation movement. Fly is a whole body stroke. The more you engage your entire body the easier it becomes. Good luck! It takes time, be patient and practice, practice, practice. The coolest thing about fly is one day it will all click and viola!

RE: improving butterfly

Former Member — Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:19:34 GMT

I was training for front crawl 100 and added the 100 fly to compete in, unfortunately at that time they did not swim the hundred in the Olympics or Commonwealth games. I just raced in meets that had the 100 fly (held the Canadian record for the 100 fly). I only raced a 200 m fly once and almost died, 1956 Olympics Melborne Australia. They entered me even though the Canadian officials knew I could not do a 200, it was when I was suffering from mono... Now I only swim 50 and 100 free and fly. George

RE: improving butterfly

jswim — Tue, 29 Mar 2005 06:05:42 GMT

Originally posted by geochuck When I was at my best for fly I only did a 100 fly per workout and a couple of lengths of kicking. These were done at max speed using good form. George were you training for any specific event? I am not sure what events I would like to swim, (I am attempting to sign up for my first meet this summer), but I love fly, and would love to do a 200 fly (in my dreams eventually), but right now I can manage about 50 yards without falling apart. If I were to train for the 200 should I only workout with 100's? or was this for sprinting events? Jeanette.

RE: improving butterfly

Former Member — Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:24:16 GMT

Do you guys think swimming butterfly every work-out(for me it is almoat every day) would be too much?I total about 600 meters of butterfly per work-out.Should I keep doing it or is that too mch stress on the shoulders?I have been swimming butterfly about 2 months only...

RE: improving butterfly

ande — Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:00:25 GMT

i suggest you only swim fly with good form. when your stroke falls apart switch strokes or do drills. There's no need for you imprint terrible fly form. ande Originally posted by hooked-on-swimming Do you guys think swimming butterfly every work-out (for me it is almoat every day) would be too much?I total about 600 meters of butterfly per work-out.Should I keep doing it or is that too mch stress on the shoulders? I have been swimming butterfly about 2 months only...

RE: improving butterfly

ande — Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:44:34 GMT

hello, if you don't know what to with your legs and body when you're swimming fly then I suggest you not let them get in the way. You're likely to swim fly much faster if you soften up your kick and body movements and concentrate on moving your arms fast and relaxed through a full range. When you swim fly work to keep your momentum going. Take a good push off and come up swimming. Perhaps time yourself in a 25 sprint. See how far you can swim fly before your stroke falls apart. Fly is a very tiring stroke. My favorite fly drill is one arm fly with one arm stroking and the other by my side. good luck, ande Originally posted by Alastair Hello, I'm a UK swimmer (41) who took up swimming following a running injury 4 years ago. A familiar scenario to many. My freestyle and breaststroke is OK and infact I do fairly well in a breaststroke set at the club. My butterfly is like a stone in the water however. I have chatted to other members , the coach, and watched the good guys, but it does not seem to happen. I get no real leg power on a kick in, kick out rhythym for each arm pull. I know the power comes from the stomach as well as the legs and I know rhythym is important. Has anybody had any great moments of enlightenment. No amount of drill work seems to make a huge difference. Any ideas ?