Breaststroke technique

RE: Breaststroke technique

Former Member — Sun, 25 Jan 2004 14:03:53 GMT

Hi Wayne, Very interesting remarks. I am back into swimming for about a year now (breaststroke is my main stroke), after a 20 year break. First 6 months I made great progress (as you would expect:)), but since then hardly any, even though I am leaner, stronger and fitter. I am struggling with the breaststroke technique, and getting conflicting advice from the coaches. - You say Dave Denniston sculls too much, he should pull more. I am told that 'breaststroke pull is not pulling back, but sculling'. Can you explain what you mean by 'pulling more' and how that relates to the width of the pull. - When I do a wall kick, my kick feels powerfull, but I find this very hard to do when doing the full stroke. My feet sometimes even break the surface. Any advice on how to improve this? All the best, Robert

RE: Breaststroke technique

Former Member — Sat, 24 Jan 2004 14:06:19 GMT

Amanda Beard's coach I think is Busch. I think it help Amanda going to Arizona since she's been here she hasswimming toward the top again. I do think the world cups great for the top swimmers they make some cash.

RE: Breaststroke technique

Allen Stark — Sat, 24 Jan 2004 11:13:27 GMT

Great post by Wayne.I totally agree about stroke mechanics. I have REALLY been focusing on keeping my head down for the past year. THE result has been my best times in nearly 10 years and a new enthusiasm in training. I have been playing with the shortened underwater pull for some time now. It feels faster but the stop watch doesn't agree, yet, so I haven't used it in major meets. One major part of the "wave" breaststroke that Wayne hasn't emphasized in this thread is recovering the legs by bending at the knees only,with the hips straight until just before the catch when they do bend some to increase power. Doing this really decreases drag. One question,how does Amanda Beard go so fast with her stroke? ( Wayne,if you can go 12.3 for a 50 I'm glad you don't have time to train. That time is scary. However, I do love to swim with you & hope you can find time to work out.)

RE: Breaststroke technique

Former Member — Sat, 24 Jan 2004 06:53:30 GMT

No, in truth the wave style is returning to what Barrowman did in the 1992 Olympics. Very low amplitude wave. Many coaches went the wrong way, emphasing going high out of the water. They even invented a non propulsive "windshield wiper" pull just to get the swimmer high enough to dive over the water. The real secret of the wave is allowing a streamline while underwater:D

RE: Breaststroke technique

Former Member — Sat, 24 Jan 2004 06:31:58 GMT

Amanda Beard is a mystery. I have not seen here stroke since the 2000 Olympics. She has a new coach for some time. What I really like about her is she started swimming the World Cup. eek after week swimming short course meters against the fastest women in the world. Their times are getting so fast. I call it getting race hardened. I have never bought in the theory of only swiming one or two important races a year. Spitz could race and break world records in practicein heavy training. Ed Moses has broken records in heavy training, as many others who now swim the World cup series. I think it gives you more chances of experimenting at race speed. Plus $5000 for a win, $25,000 for a world record, and $25,000 for swimer of the meet is incentive. Two weeks ago when Moses went 2:02.92, he won $65,000 in two days. He then won $15,000 the next week. The biggest women swimmers change is Megan Quann. She used to come real high out of the water. She now swims like a man, head down. And she is BACK!

RE: Breaststroke technique

Former Member — Sat, 24 Jan 2004 06:22:55 GMT

Allen, You mis-read. The 12.3 is the goal with the shortened pulldown. The 12.6 is my best.:D The real secret to this pull down is not breathing the first stroke up. Try it, you will feel much more power and carry more speed into the next breathing stroke. Allen, you have to try things in swim meets. Practice is not the same. You just might be surprised. Do you do two turn sprints? We start as if going into a turn, swim a fifty and a reace finish. Basically the last 50 of a hundred. My best is 32.1. I have always felt my start was worth 3 seconds over a wall pushoff. I have always had a very narrow kick. I could always kick along the pool wall without hitting the wall. But I am very concious of water resistance and streamlining during the kick. I continue to take videos underwater to make sure I keep the knees inline with the body, so not to break streamline. Videos of Barrowman, Moses etc all show a very low angle of knee bend when the feet are brought back. Poor breaststrokers have this huge bend at the waist that is the real major flaw in their strokes. Only the feet are brought up, and that should be explosive. You want to cause as little time with this water resistance as possible. I really don't think exploding the kick back, that comes naturally. And I always snap the ankles so the heels smash together. Kitajima's coach feels that is what he does better than any other swimmer, and he feels all great breaststrokers do the ankle snap and heel crash naturally. The faster the heels are brought back to the but, the beter the kick will be. Allen, PM me, I will send you my latest article. I have had 6 swim workouts and 4 weight workouts this month, the most in over a year. There is still another week in this month. I was real sick at our Las Vegas meet, it has taken me two weeks to get back into the water.

RE: Breaststroke technique

Former Member — Fri, 23 Jan 2004 17:11:41 GMT

In the very early days of the wave style some recovered their hands over the water. But all soon realized that when the hands came out of the water, it caused the hips to sink. Same relationship as the head. Most people recover the hands through the top of the water or just under the waters surface. The new style underwater pull satisfies the rules, gives nearly the same distance, but keeps the speed at a much higher average. Most people come to a complete stop after the hands come back to the sides of the hips.:mad:

RE: Breaststroke technique

Former Member — Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:21:58 GMT

I think the Dave Denniston video is the best, slightly better than Ed Moses DVD video. If I were his coach, I would have him do a narrower pull, with a more pronunced pull rather than scull. With less time with the arms in the pull phase, he could spend more time underwater in streamline. Kitajima has a very small time wise pull phase. He starts and ends every stroke in a true streamline, even in the 100 meters. This means less effort overcoming water resistance, and more time getting distance out of the kick phase.

RE: Breaststroke technique

Former Member — Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:58:32 GMT

Cool, thanks. I'll try these techniques tomorrow and report my findings here. Wow, lots of tips for BS'ers in this little discussion Here are things that I'll try to remember tomorrow: 1. Look down when breathing, try to stay low during recovery (got this down already from Dave Denniston's video). 2. Hand recovery stays in the surface of the water. 3. Tight streamline, about 3 secs before pulling from the wall. 4. Most importantly, I'll try the modified pullout.:)

RE: Breaststroke technique

Michael Martin — Fri, 23 Jan 2004 11:16:00 GMT

Is the wave style breaststroke, pioneered by Mike Barrowman and Roque Santos, now dead?

RE: Breaststroke technique

Former Member — Fri, 23 Jan 2004 11:08:14 GMT

I should also say the timing I use. You can never swim as fast as you can push off the wall underwater, I have a tight streamline so I go a full 3 seconds before pulling down for the 50, 100 and 200 races. For the 50 I count one and kick to the surface, I count two for the 100 and I count three for the 200. I can sometimes make 12 yards on just the first three seconds before the pulldown.

RE: Breaststroke technique

Former Member — Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:49:31 GMT

Ian, My normal race pull out to when my head breaks the surface is 13-15 yards in the 200 breaststroke. I will continue to use the old, long pulldown for the 200. Once in a while I can get 20 yards from the start. My normal race pull out to when my head breaks the surface is 11-12 yards in the 50 breaststroke. Using the *** scull pullout technique I loose 0.5 yards. But to the 15 yard mark I am about 0.5 seconds faster.:D That is a lot to cut. I do end up with one more complete stroke per length, but I will take the time off. When I am in shape I can do 12.6 for 25 yards from a dive, using the conventional pulldown. I hope to get that down to 12.3 this year. My big problem was at no time in the last year have I been in shape. The most I swam in any one month was 5 workouts. There were 6 months with no workouts. It looks like I made top 10 in LCM last year with no workouts for 3 months, I just showed up at a meet and swam.:p But I never lose technique for the start, underwater stroke and the stroke itself. But I also slow down real fast. My 100 times are 10 seconds slower than what my 50 times would indicate. The 200 times were worse. Bottom line you have to work out even for the 50 ***!

RE: Breaststroke technique

Former Member — Fri, 23 Jan 2004 09:58:29 GMT

I agree, it would be worth giving up some distance if the average speed that you breakout at is faster. Have you used this modified pullout in a race? If so, which one? When you say the distances are nearly the same when compared to the conventional pullout, are you talking inches or feet? Do you have any wall-to-15-yard times to compare the two with? I realize the answer to these are going to depend on the individual but if have any more info on this I'd be interested in hearing it.

RE: Breaststroke technique

Former Member — Thu, 22 Jan 2004 16:40:00 GMT

Regarding the statement below made by Wayne: "I have modified the pulldown by doing a regular wave pull underwater and then a kick to the surface. That means the hands only come to the front of the face and then forwards. Also it is important to have a narrow kick to the surface. A wide kick causes too much de-acceleration. A narrow kick keeps the speed underwater up and gets you to the surface faster with more total speed." If I read this correctly, 1. After a turn or a dive, your swimmers do a mini-outsweep and insweep and put the arms forward instead of to the side of the body. 2. Kick to the surface and do another pull to start the stroke. Is this legal? According to the rules, it appears to be. Wayne, you are ahead of your time :-) It makes a lot of sense to me, definitely minimizes the drag.

RE: Breaststroke technique

Former Member — Thu, 22 Jan 2004 16:19:50 GMT

I'm no breaststroke expert, but it's my favorite stroke. When I do the wave breaststroke at race speed, my hands are always over the surface. When I swim slowly, it's at or just under the water surface. For a while there, I didn't even know that I was swimming wave style. I learned the fast mini-sculling by reading books and watching videos of expert breaststrokers. With the powerful insweep of the stroke, a hole in the water is created in front of the body. For me, this makes the recovery over the surface of the water. Any thoughts on this, Wayne?

RE: Breaststroke technique

Former Member — Thu, 22 Jan 2004 15:04:21 GMT

What about recovery--over or under the surface?

RE: Breaststroke technique

Former Member — Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:29:57 GMT

I personally do not do any exercises for ankle flexibility. I can only turn my feet about 75 degrees from straight. Some can turn their feet 90 degrees from straight. Mike Barrowman and others used to sit on their ankles with the ankles turned out. I recommend sitting is a hot tub, drink some wine, then turn the ankles out:D

RE: Breaststroke technique

Former Member — Wed, 21 Jan 2004 14:21:24 GMT

Hi Wayne, I'm a frequent reader of your web site's articles. Question for you regarding ankles. What are some dryland exercises you would recommend to master swimmers to increase ankle flexibility. Of course this would be for the breaststroke. Thanks.

RE: Breaststroke technique

Former Member — Wed, 21 Jan 2004 13:24:37 GMT

I make all my swimmers swim the wave style breaststroke for full lengths underwater, exactly as if they were on the surface. They are really fast. Actually the fastest underwater stroke would be if you were allowed to just kick to the surface, but the rules require a pull down first. I have modified the pulldown by doing a regular wave pull underwater and then a kick to the surface. That mens the hands only come to the front of the face and then forwards. Also it is important to have a narrow kick to the surface. A wide kick causes too much de-acceleration. A narrow kick keeps the speed underwater up and gets you to the surface faster with more total speed. Cynthia, I hope you are at least putting your head down. You don't have to do the wave to take advantage of the rules. When my swimmers are keeping their heads up too much, I make them swim like we had to do in the 60's and 70's, head always up. They hate it, calling it cruel and inhumane punishment:D

RE: Breaststroke technique

Former Member — Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:05:36 GMT

Yes, I agree with you *** times have changed the most in the past 30 years. I wonder what would happen if breaststrokers were able to do more than one pull and kick after the turn if they could go out 15 meters like fly and back swimmers. Breaststrokers as many older swimmers know at one could swim a 100 meters completely underwater. That was changed to prevent people from passing out from no breathing. The rules on this have not been changed in about 40 years.

RE: Breaststroke technique

Former Member — Wed, 21 Jan 2004 10:59:18 GMT

Well, I not certain if changing her style to a wave breaststroke really helped her. She was swimming at the 1:04 to 106 range without it. I agree Amanda use to have a high style. I swim more level but my *** style is more the style that they swam back in the 1970's. It would be interesting if she replys to you on her style.