YMCA Nationals

RE: YMCA Nationals

Former Member — Tue, 20 Jan 2004 14:42:47 GMT

Let me think....................Ft. Lauderdale or ...........Indiana????? I'll go with the Y nationals. Unfortunately, I don't think my schedule will allow either this year, but my fellow swimmers and I were seriously thinking about going to Florida because we thought it might be more fun. Plus, we are from NJ and Florida sounds sooooo nice right about now. We call them cherrypickers where I come from.

RE: YMCA Nationals

Former Member — Sun, 18 Jan 2004 11:48:33 GMT

Very true of our Y team also. More than half are paying the program fee, but are not YMCA members.

RE: YMCA Nationals

Former Member — Sun, 18 Jan 2004 09:18:24 GMT

Just to throw a monkey wrench in the proceedings, at our YMCA we have something called "Program Participation." If you are a YMCA member, you pay a certain fee to take part in an activity. If for whatever reason you do not want to join the YMCA, you can still take part in the activity by being a "Program Participant." Essentially, you pay double the activity fee. This way of doing things is true for all YMCA programs. So, for example, if your child is a program participant in youth basketball, she can come to the YMCA for that particular activity, but she would not be permitted to come at any other time or use any part of the facility that was not dedicated to youth basketball. The interesting consequence is that because the YMCA requires full membership in order to participate in the YMCA Masters Nationals, a significant portion of our swimmers would not be eligible to compete. They practice regularly in a YMCA Masters program and have a Program participant card to show for it, but they would not be allowed to participate at a YMCA Nationals. However, as has been pointed out, there have been and will be folks who pay the YMCA for a full membership who will be competing, but they are otherwise not connected to the YMCA. Just an Observation, Ray

RE: YMCA Nationals

Former Member — Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:51:47 GMT

i can see all sides to this post,i'll agree with y swimmer primarily,after lots of hard work to have some young whipper snapper coming in and winning everything will not help moral. on the other hand ,how much is the trinket worth if you are left to win it with no competition other than local competition that you swim against all year round?i guess this is a real toughie!!!

RE: YMCA Nationals

Former Member — Sat, 17 Jan 2004 07:21:15 GMT

Nadine, I did think of you when I read this thread. Not badly, because I know your situation. I did not know if this was aimed at you. It is true some Y's really don't care that much for their Masters program. I have not even been training with my Masters group because we get 2 practice times, Friday 6:30-8, and Sundays 3:15-5. Not the best times in the world. Also coaching has been inconsistent and many times a chalkboard work-out. We have 2 people who do meets, myself and one other lady. I don't even do meets that often. Poor Nadine has been trying to find a meet for me to go to, and is finding out what kind of schedule I have. :) That said, I miss my Masters friends in this group terribley by not practicing with them. Hopefully when my kids get a break I will stop in and say hi.:) If I had the time and money to go to Masters Y-nationals, I would go, and like Nadine, I might hunt out a Masters team that could give me relays. It makes the meets much more fun to go with a group. and if this was aimed at Nadine, understand, she just loves to swim and would never mean to hurt anyone!

RE: YMCA Nationals

Former Member — Sat, 17 Jan 2004 06:54:38 GMT

Nadine brings up such a valid point, about the Y's not even caring whether they have masters swimmers or not. I am not sure if it's not caring, or that they are just totally uninformed about the whole masters program. I started the masters team at our Y and it has taken over two years to get TEN people to come to practice regularly! How many go to meets? Usually one: me. But, we're a tight group, and hopefully we'll all be friends for many years. We managed to host a meet last spring and over 50 swimmers participated, including eight on our team. Woo-hoo!!! But, it's a start. You know what would be cool: if at the Y nationals, they let you swim on relays with other swimmers there who don't have enough for a relay. They could have sign-up sheets according to age groups. They could be different events than the "legitimate" relays, so there could be awards given, but not points. God, that would be a hoot! What could bring people closer together, and embody the spirit of the YMCA mission, than to swim with folks you don't even know, all striving to do their best. Ever the optimist...

RE: YMCA Nationals

swim53 — Sat, 17 Jan 2004 03:21:20 GMT

I KNOW the posting was NOT aimed at Nadine! I have been swimming Y Nats for a long time (my first was held in Cincinatti, whatever year that was) and I have seen it ALL at various Y Nats. Since the venue is moved from place to place yearly, (it used to seem that it went north-south-north-south, etc., year to year) there will always be a large number of people attending from that particular locale. Just as an example, this was true in Milwaukee 5 years ago when a woman who lived in WI came to break all the records in my (her) age group. Why not? She enjoys competition and so do I. I absolutely agree that much of the team-joining you see happens because people want to be on relays with people who live in their LMSC but have their own Y they belong to and are the only Master swimmer belonging there (or have no regular Y they belong to on a continuing basis.) I believe the executive directors of the Y's must sign the entry saying that the team members have regular memberships,etc. with cards showing yearly expiration dates like everyone else at their Y. There is not to be any "special membership category" and violation/ineligibility is suppose to occur if this is not followed but I know many times this rule has been"stretched" (to say the least.) I have never heard of anyone being deemed ineligible but I do know the rule is not always followed. Y Nationals are FUN!!! The spirit you feel there can not be matched.... people standing at the end of lanes urging ALL fellow swimmers on during races. It is great.

RE: YMCA Nationals

Former Member — Thu, 15 Jan 2004 17:44:13 GMT

To add to the comments... Some people just want to be able do relays. And there are so many swimmers (myself for one) who have been to the Y Nationals and lo and behold I am the only person from my Y, so, no relays. Even though there may be someone at that meet on my masters team, I can't do a relay with them. So yes, if there is a group of us--all Y members--- who would like to be on relays and can somehow swing it where we are all members of the same Y, what is the harm? We're all members of a YMCA somewhere.... Now, I have seen a situation where a ringer was arranged with a Y age group team...and for the sole purpose of winning an award, being the best, etc. I don't think that was right. In this situation, it knocked off a longtime relay member of one team, just to add a faster guy from another Y. The age group Y nationals are far more competitive, with stricter entry rules, than the Masters Y Nats.

RE: YMCA Nationals

aquageek — Thu, 15 Jan 2004 12:55:29 GMT

As Fritz said, you never really hear anyone get upset by the slow ringers.

RE: YMCA Nationals

NKMD — Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:52:18 GMT

I had to join in this discussion because it sort of took me by surprise. I hope no body considers me a ringer at all. I started swimming Masters 3 years ago and swam Y Nationals 2 years ago. I swam for my local Y, I convinced a dear friend of mine to join me and now she is hooked. The Y we swam for did NOT have a masters team and it took a lot of work to convince our Y to let us swim, thank goodness my friend is a lawyer. We went to Nationals and had a great time. (Just to let you know our Y didn't even ask us when we returned how we did or how our trip was.) We met a bunch of great people from various teams that had relays and we were very jealous. We wanted to swim relays. We couldn't convince people at our Y to swim. It takes 4 to swim a relay. We looked into joining another Y. The following year we did. Mainly to swim on relays, not for points! Plus, I don't think the Y I swam for even placed top 3 in the team points. I don't think I bumped anyone off any relays either. I didn't even swim on the "A" relay. We needed more girls. The guys out numbered the girls. How do you like that ratio. Going with a large group also helps decrease the cost of traveling. I love to swim meets! I love to swim......I love to travel too especially to some where warm with an ocean helps. Y Nationals are great they get done at 1 then you can relax at the beach. You can't go wrong; they do the YMCA dance. Nothing compares to Y Nationals. Ft. Lauderdale, FL-how appealing is that. FUN, SUN, and SWIM Mark your calenders: April 15-18th, make it a weekend to relax before USMS Nationals. Just swim and have fun. Swimcerely, Nadine

RE: YMCA Nationals

knelson — Wed, 14 Jan 2004 12:08:16 GMT

Originally posted by eliana2003 what's a ringer? From www.m-w.com: 2 a (1) : one that enters a competition under false representations

RE: YMCA Nationals

Former Member — Wed, 14 Jan 2004 11:25:39 GMT

I get it... wow, that's not cool...

RE: YMCA Nationals

Former Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2004 17:08:17 GMT

Originally posted by aquageek This whole notion that you are being denied a trinket by someone faster than you who enters late is irrelevant. Don't you want to compete against the best competition, regardless of when they paid their membership? Whether or not a ringer shows up doesn't make you any more or less fast compared to them. Is it irrelevant? If simply "swimming fast" is the goal of a swim meet then why do we keep scores at all? Why have age and gender groups? Does it matter if you are competing against men, women, and children, young or old as long as you are swimming fast? Why should we even award ribbons and medals? What's the point? After all, as long as you "swam fast" who cares where you placed - so why would you want to commemorate the event with a "trinket." Did you ever notice the relay teams at the Olympics representing their countries? Now there is a stupid idea. Why not just get the best swimmers together, regardless of citizenship and see how fast they can go. Representing your country is meaningless - Right? Should you actually attend the college you swim for? Nah - membership, commitment and dedication to a team in meaningless - just pay your tuition before the meet and swim. Why do we keep track of things like State, National, Masters and Olympic records? Should it be just one big FINA pot? After all - swimming fast is the only goal. As a matter of fact - why have standards and rules - just get the end as fast as you can. Wear fins, take drugs, whatever. Just swim fast! Aquageek - Do you really think that membership and commitment to an organization or group is meaningless and irrelevant? What about standards and rules - Do they count for anything? RSY

RE: YMCA Nationals

Former Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2004 16:41:04 GMT

No such thing as a "Real Y-Swimmer?" I volunteer at my Y raising money to support those who do not have the ability to pay. I lobbied for a coach to build our master's program. I volunteer at the rec league meets to keep the costs low. I am a dedicated active member of my YMCA. Yes - there is such a thing as a "Real Y-Swimmer" It's not about trinkets. It's about setting goals as a team. It's about competing as a team. Its about ralliing around a cause for the betterment and benefit of a group. The "Ringers" are the ones concerned about trinkets. They are simply shopping for a venue where they can set a record or grab a prize and that's not what YMCA's are all about. The YMCA is an organization dedicated to specific principles and character values - Caring, Honesty, Respect and Responsibilty. How is Honesty and Respect demonstrated with sham memberships and ringers? RYS

RE: YMCA Nationals

Former Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:54:46 GMT

I agree wholeheartedly with your post, and I'm glad you have addressed this matter out in the open. It makes the idea of keeping team scores quite meaningless imho when a YMCA fields a team that consists of people who have never set foot in that Y.

RE: YMCA Nationals

Former Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:32:30 GMT

If all the "ringers" happened to be 25 year old men who couldn't break two minutes for a 50 free, would we still be having this discussion?

RE: YMCA Nationals

aquageek — Tue, 13 Jan 2004 12:38:49 GMT

You've gone so far down the slippery slope that I wonder if you knew where you got on the slide. Y Nationals are not the Olympics and not the NCAAs. Drawing that analogy is erroneous. And, I'm not sure how you drew the distinction between Y membership and wearing fins and taking drugs. I don't think anyone would support that. You are concerned about one thing and one thing only - trinkets. All that great work you do at the Y doesn't entitle you to the medals or entitle you to swim the fastest. It entitles you to compete, that's it. Why the great concern? What is the harm? Aren't you still practicing and getting in shape and setting PBs? And, as a member, you don't decide the policies on membership, the board of directors for the Y does. And, membership is not conditional on the amount of work a person does. If you are upset because you can't swim fast enough to win medals maybe you should train harder to be as good as the "ringers." Then, you could say you are the fastest, period. Stop whining, start winning!

RE: YMCA Nationals

Former Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:11:42 GMT

According to the YMCA guidelines - Nationals are open to ANYONE who is a full time member of their YMCA as of 1/16/04. They define a full time member as anyone with a FULL ANNUAL membership and all the rights and privileges of membership. Please join my YMCA; we need more swimmers and your money. We need one more male swimmer in the 35+ bracket to field some relays and a couple of more female swimmers. Here is my two cents. 1) If you join the YMCA on or before Jan 15th and you pay your dues up through Nationals – Come swim. Have a great time at one of the best meets in the country. 2) I will take issue the YMCA that sells a “special” membership or cuts a deal for a group of swimmers just so they can swim at Nationals. That clearly violates the intent and spirit of the meet. I think that is what the “fuss” is all about. See you in Fort Lauderdale, Michael

RE: YMCA Nationals

aquageek — Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:07:35 GMT

We had a rather animated thread a while back on this topic as it relates to USMS Nationals and the so called "ringer" phenomenom. Keep in mind there is no such thing as "a real Y swimmer." Ys are open to anyone and everyone, regardless of ability to pay. It's a Y, for goodness sakes. This whole notion that you are being denied a trinket by someone faster than you who enters late is irrelevant. Don't you want to compete against the best competition, regardless of when they paid their membership? Whether or not a ringer shows up doesn't make you any more or less fast compared to them.

RE: YMCA Nationals

Former Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2004 10:42:02 GMT

what's a ringer?

RE: YMCA Nationals

Former Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2004 09:15:09 GMT

I suspect that the "ringers" are just looking for an opportunity to compete. As Masters swimmers, our work schedules and geography limit the number of meets we can enter. I'm planning to go to long course nationals in Savannah because it's close and I can combine it with a family vacation. I doubt these swimmers are going to that much trouble just to pick up medals. And if their local YMCA is sponsoring them, I don't see the problem.

RE: YMCA Nationals

Former Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2004 08:29:41 GMT

It strikes me you are venting against the wrong group. The individuals competing in the meet are doing so because they are allowed. They are following the rules as they are outlined. I don't see how you fault them. If you want to go after someone, go after the organization that allows it to happen and that is the YMCA.

RE: YMCA Nationals

Former Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2004 06:14:10 GMT

Originally posted by aquageek You've gone so far down the slippery slope that I wonder if you knew where you got on the slide. Y Nationals are not the Olympics and not the NCAAs. Drawing that analogy is erroneous. And, I'm not sure how you drew the distinction between Y membership and wearing fins and taking drugs. I don't think anyone would support that. No, but to compete in the Olympics, you must have MEMBERSHIP ie citizenship for that country. And to compete at NCAA's you must belong to and go to school. Just like the YMCA, you should have "membership" to compete. You are concerned about one thing and one thing only - trinkets. All that great work you do at the Y doesn't entitle you to the medals or entitle you to swim the fastest. It entitles you to compete, that's it. Why the great concern? What is the harm? Aren't you still practicing and getting in shape and setting PBs? Can you read my mind? I think not. I'm concerned about fair play and palying by the rules. I enjoy competition and the TEAM concept. Bringing in ringers dilutes my enjoyment - which I have earned. And, as a member, you don't decide the policies on membership, the board of directors for the Y does. And, membership is not conditional on the amount of work a person does. This is the crux of the issue. There are policies on membership. I strenously object to subverting those policies so that someone can swim in a swim meet. I object to those YMCA's that allow someone to buy a discounted membership solely for the purpose of competing at a swim meet. If you are upset because you can't swim fast enough to win medals maybe you should train harder to be as good as the "ringers." Then, you could say you are the fastest, period. You miss the point entirely. It is not about swimming fast. This post is about principals, standards and ethics. Stop whining, start winning!

RE: YMCA Nationals

aquageek — Tue, 13 Jan 2004 01:30:13 GMT

If the meet sets the guidelines for entry, the Y sets the guidelines for membership and the meet is conducted accordingly, what is wrong? What is unethical? What written standards or ethics are violated? Some of us prefer the best competition. You, obviously, prefer competition of your choosing. I could care less if I get schooled at a meet that allows one-day USMS registration or a ringer who registers with USMS the week before a meet. That doesn't make them less of a swimmer or less of a person. USMS and Ys aren't about exclusion, they are about inclusion. I think you should channel all of your negative energy into more productive workouts to allow you to beat the scum-of-the-earth ringers.