The book gold in the water

RE: The book gold in the water

Former Member — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 16:18:15 GMT

Mark Mattson: Actually, I used to sing the Barney Song while swimming the mile. Due to my artificial right hip and my inability to explode off the blocks in order to be competitive in sprint events, I am a distance swimmer. Being forced to swim distance events puts me in a rather interesting place with respect to my mind set...(does not, does to, does not, does to....). Swimming the mile and long off shore events were some of the times I felt closest to God. In that I mean, I viewed them as a religious experience. For me, I found myself dealing with the grind parts of the swim and my ability to deal with the tremendous amounts of discomfort associated with pushing myself right up to the very edge of my human conditioning. Strange as it may sound, when I swam the mile or long off shore races I had the mind set that this could be my last event or action on this earth. I became stoic and quiet before races and attempted to deal with my inner thoughts of who I am and what I am here for. Without exception I always said my Prayers before these events and asked forgiveness for any transgressions I had committed in my life because I was uncomfortable with the possible outcome of pushing myself to the very edge. But, I knew the very edge was the point where I was about to go….. Once the race began I set my pace and pushed myself to the point where I was in the middle of that zone where discomfort lurked. I kept my mind in my race by thinking about my stroke length, breathing ALL my air out on the exhale part of my breathing and streamlining off the walls. I attempted to be a disciplined swimmer by paying attention to the things that impact my race. Yet, I always had this deep inner feeling of peace. Almost without exception, I was totally spent at the end of these events. I had nothing left and regardless of my time, I felt a sense of pride that I had come face to face with something that…well, quite frankly, scared the heck out of me, but I did it anyway. Although I have a rather off the wall sense of humor and pride myself in being able to find humor in the most mundane things in life, I always swam the mile or long off shore events with a serious mind set. Ok, I admit it, I am a bit strange and somewhat bent in my thinking …Am not, am to, am not, am to, not, to, not, to….

RE: The book gold in the water

mattson — Sat, 03 Jan 2004 10:45:27 GMT

Originally posted by Tom Ellison It takes a completely different mind set to grind out lap after lap after lap…alone, by yourself, with no interaction with anyone until you reach the end of a set. Swimmers are different….Am not, are so, am not, are so…… Tom, I hope that last "discussion" isn't going through your head during the longer swims. :cool: (Just ignore those nice gentlemen with the oversized butterfly nets...) I'm not in good enough shape to do it now, but I used to be able to go on auto-pilot for any swims over 100. Very enjoyable to be able to "meditate" several times a week.

RE: The book gold in the water

Former Member — Fri, 02 Jan 2004 17:44:59 GMT

I think that Aquageek has one good idea. States that are small in population but then to be more in the middle of the income bracket like Iowa may be apart of the future of swimming. Why we don't invest in pools in Iowa or Maine where Ian Crocker came from I don't know. Maybe, the develop of more portable pools would help the rural states be able to have more pools available.

RE: The book gold in the water

Former Member — Fri, 02 Jan 2004 17:08:22 GMT

This is certainly an interesting thread, and not without controversy. Any issues of race and socio-economic disparity will undoubtedly bring about some sensitivities. But there's a hard cold reality that swimming is indeed a sport that not only requires water as the main ingredient, but financing as well. Some communities may not have the resources to even consider building a pool. It's a lot easier to lay down some pavement for a basketball or tennis court. And if a pool is available to the general public, it doesn't mean that they will come. Not everyone has the money to fork over for a year round membership. It's a sad truth in this great country that many families struggle just to get by. That reason alone may prohibit youngsters from showing up at an early age irregardless of racial backgrounds. By the time kids get into high school, they may have no interest in joining their swim team for their mere lack of experience in the sport. I would like to think that it's not so much a matter of race, as it is a matter of having access to a facility. YMCA's are abundant across this country, and there's no reason that kids from all ages and backgrounds can't find some pool time. Perhaps this sport is too young to make a comment that it's made up of a more white middle-to-upper class part of the population. Maybe there just haven't been enough swimming pools built to ensure that everyone gets their "feet wet" so to speak. It's interesting to note as someone pointed out, that sports minded kids these days have dreams of making big cake. Professional baseball, basketball, and football offer a much greater allure because of the insane amounts of money that these athletes take home. Maybe that's why the "underpriviledged" inner city kid is shooting hoops or working on their curve ball. Could swimming be on par with cricket???? Let's hope not.

RE: The book gold in the water

Former Member — Fri, 02 Jan 2004 17:07:05 GMT

Costial areas have nothing to do with swimming success. And the state of Minnesota produced Tom Malchow. At one time the unversity of Indiana was the college powerhouse in swimming back in the 1960's and 1970's. Actually, the state of Arizona landlock produce more medal winners that Vermont or Maine or any New England state in the last olympics. Wyoming has a weak program not because its landlock but because it has a small population. Pools are expensive to built and they are built usually in large urban areas. As for Croatia, its hasn't done that good in swimming. Russia and Urkaine and Hungray are the top medal swimmers from Eastern Europe. And Hungray is pretty landlocked. The first medal swimmer in 1896 was from Hungray.

RE: The book gold in the water

Former Member — Fri, 02 Jan 2004 16:31:20 GMT

So, where is the funding for building, maintaining and magaging and coaching a team gsupposed to come from? Especially in the areas where the interest or economical power is low?

RE: The book gold in the water

Former Member — Fri, 02 Jan 2004 14:58:06 GMT

Phil: I humbly apologize for not being clearer in my above post. I believe you understood part of my post but missed the part I did not mention. You are 100 % correct in your understanding that I see swimming as “colorless”. I always have and I always will. You are incorrect in your assumption that I think or advocate posts such as this be taken elsewhere. Again, I apologize for not being clearer in that thought process. I believe this is an excellent forum to discuss controversial topics that impact us personally and as a sport. Having said that, it is NOT my call what is posted or not posted within this forum. Many times I have posted my thoughts and feelings on numerous diverse and wide ranging topics discussed (within this forum). Dialog is healthy, it is enlightening, it is educational, it is often healing, and above all it is our right as free Americans to discuss topics that impact our lives. “General discussions” means just that, wide ranging-broad-universal. United States Masters Swimming is a close knit body of swimmers from all walks of life and we are “one” in that sports body, but we are unique and different in many other ways. I for one, fully support discussions such as this and I support them in this forum. Lastly, I may not agree with some of the posts, but I darn sure would fight for the right to respectfully post what we ALL think and believe.

RE: The book gold in the water

Former Member — Fri, 02 Jan 2004 10:38:29 GMT

"Cricket? Rugby? Field hockey? Why not include basket weaving as a major sport?" Cricket, rugby and field hockey have a history stretching back hundreds of years. They each require athleticism and skill. Just because they don't happen to fit one individual's definition of sport ... is not the point I was making. Someone once said that sarcasm (i.e. "basket weaving"!!!) is the lowest form of wit.

RE: The book gold in the water

aquageek — Fri, 02 Jan 2004 08:31:13 GMT

Doesn't the UK Masters group have their own discussion forums where serious sports like cricket (men in funky white suits drinking beer) and field hockey can be discussed? As to the lowest form of wit being sarcasm, THANKS, I'll take that as a true compliment from a friend overseas.

RE: The book gold in the water

Former Member — Fri, 02 Jan 2004 07:53:22 GMT

Lack of facilities is a big deal. It is easy to find a basketball court or field to play football or soccer. My kids' team practices outdoors in a 50 meter park district pool in the summer. This pool is 40 years old and failing. The park district is in the process of planning a new facility. This new facility in all likelyhood will not include a 50 meter pool. They are planning a water park, with slides and lazy river. That is where the money is. There will be a small 6 or 8 lane 25 yard lap pool, but gone will be the opportunity to train long course. I do think that once they try to put the programs they had in the long course pool into the short course pool(lessons, aerobics, swimteam practice, lap swimming) they will find that they cannot fit it all, and things will get cut. Water parks, the way of the world these days.

RE: The book gold in the water

Former Member — Fri, 02 Jan 2004 07:41:25 GMT

Craig, you make an excellent point. Let’s face it, swimmers are a seriously different bunch. It takes a completely different mind set to grind out lap after lap after lap…alone, by yourself, with no interaction with anyone until you reach the end of a set. I remember a kid when I first started to swim back in 1958 or 1959 telling me he did not like the silence. He said it was boring to swim lap after lap and never have the opportunity to talk to anyone. Soon after he made that statement, his swim team experience came to an end. The solitary nature of our sport is not for everyone. Swimmers are different….Am not, are so, am not, are so……

RE: The book gold in the water

Former Member — Fri, 02 Jan 2004 07:20:58 GMT

Sorry, Connie about talking too much about immirgation and race. Its not going to change things.

RE: The book gold in the water

Former Member — Fri, 02 Jan 2004 07:07:15 GMT

I live in a small town with a very nice YMCA. The facility is centrally located and within five minutes of just about everyone in town. There is a six lane 25 yard indoor pool and a year round swim team. The local high school team works out at the same time and shares coaching. What I've noticed is that the youth basketball league is full (I think they had to turn some kids away this year) whereas the swim team is very small. And of course swim lessons are offered for all ages, all levels of ability. My point is that most of the kids would rather play basketball than invest the amount of time and effort required to participate and excel in swimming. In this particular case, for what it's worth, race and/or socioeconomic status do not seem to influence access to swimming as a sport. Obviously role models (or lack thereof) and the perceived monetary gain (or lack thereof) could be factors in choosing basketball over swimming. Or maybe basketball just seems like more fun.

RE: The book gold in the water

Former Member — Fri, 02 Jan 2004 06:27:09 GMT

Sorry, Sam Perry if I sounded rude on the subject. Well I for one would like to drop the subject. We all have different ideas and its not going to be solved overnite.

RE: The book gold in the water

Former Member — Thu, 01 Jan 2004 17:20:03 GMT

Sam hits on a good point, money, and add to that noteriety. I open the sports page of the local paper. First is the years top ten, which is mostly football and basketball dominated. The tennis team at the U of I got mentioned(they only won NCAA). A sprinter got mentioned(she only won gold at Worlds and turned pro), but U of I's pitiful football team was 2 or 3, U of I's losing its basketball coach, number one. Then you turn the page, and you see collage football, bowl games, and the next page is prep basketball. On any given day, there are at least two pages devoted to prep basketball or football, and usually if there is a HS swim meet, it gets a small paragragh buried in other sports. Also, the YMCA programs for basketball and football are fairly inexpensive and also offer scholarships. So if I am a black mother in government subsidized housing trying to keep my kids out of trouble and in school, I am going to use programs like the ones offered by school, park district and the Y rather than the $90-110 per month price tag for swimming on a club team. And the club teams trying to offer scholarships?, They are barely keeping afloat with the cost of pool-time and coaching, they cannot afford to give scholarships.

RE: The book gold in the water

Former Member — Thu, 01 Jan 2004 16:18:07 GMT

Sam Perry as well as I knows that Arizona has a lot more hispanics than blacks. How many Mexican kids from the barrio aim to be Basketball players or football players. Baseball players they are more likely to aim at. Blacks make up only 4 percent of our state population. So, in our state its what poor whites which Arizona has more than California does and hispanics want to go into to make money with the sports than either blacks or asians.

RE: The book gold in the water

Former Member — Thu, 01 Jan 2004 16:09:11 GMT

Just interested in the following quote from an earlier post: "Sure, the Australians are good swimmers, but they stink at most other sports (save Volleyball)." Interesting then that in recent years, Australia have competed at top level in swimming, rugby, cricket, athletics, cycling, rowing, diving, field hockey .... and presumably volleyball. all this, from a population of fewer than 20 million!!!!! - and the population of North America is??? All things considered, for a relatively 'small' nation, they don't appear to be doing that badly. Just a thought....

RE: The book gold in the water

Former Member — Thu, 01 Jan 2004 13:53:54 GMT

The race issue is one we can discuss for years if we want. When it comes down to getting the best athletes to swim race has nothing to do with it. It is about money. If I am an inner city kid (regardless of race) with no money what sport do you think I want to try to excel in? Swimming? It is obvious when I see so much money and glory being thrown to football/basketball/baseball that if I want to succeed financially, I play one of those. Australia is the perfect example. One of the main reasons they have such a succesful program with such a small athlete base is that swimming is popular there and you can make a pretty good living there in endorsements, etc. Look at Phelps and his $1,000,000 offer. He has to equal Mark Spitz's incredible feat (and I hope he does) to get the bonus. Imagine what the same caliber athlete in almost any other sport (those mentioned above as well as golf, tennis, track, etc) would make with that accomplishment. If we want to get the best athletes, we need to make swimming more popular to the general public. Until that occurs expect the best athletes for the most part to choose other sports as well as many more college programs will continue to bite the dust. I do think the marketing of Phelps this Olympic year might make an impact. Watch and see how they sell him. My expectation is that he will be perceived as just your average kid who listens to his MP3 player likes Hip-Hop/Alternative music and they appeal to the mid teen audience with him. His success and age as well as his personality is just what this sport needs to reach the broader demographic of non-swimmers in their early to mid teens. I also think the Race Club that Hall is working hard on is trying to bring swimming to the masses with high spped exciting racing atmosphere. Whether or not it works is a whole other issue.

RE: The book gold in the water

Former Member — Thu, 01 Jan 2004 10:37:39 GMT

Originally posted by laineybug Everyone is an individual, but there are groups out there that have things in common. These groups are under represented in our sport. If we want to reach those groups then we need to understand how we are failing now. Maybe certain groups also have sports preferences. Are they under-represented in certain sports because there is no access to facilities, or are they under represented because of the "image" that sport has within the demographics. Also, getting good at some sports (like football) has a potential of a huge payoff. Payoff in swimming is... well, not the same as in football or basketball, to say the least. Building more pools in certain areas is not always likely to get more people, or kids to swim. The image that particular sport has within the familial, social, cultural and economic undercurrents of a specific demographics is what will make it popular or not popular. That old..."You can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make it... swim" If you want more people swimming in the elites, and in general, find a way to make it into a more of a spectator sport, and you'll have all the money you want, on all levels. In the meantime, it's going to remain the 'upper class-as you guys are calling it' athletic sport for those who can afford to participate in it. In my case, having come from a different country and culture ... Croatia-Mediterranean, there was a very different image to swimming. Had almost nothing to do with the economic element. For a very small country (5 mil), Croatia has enjoyed a decent success in swimming and waterpolo at the elite levels. I'd venture a guess, that much like in australia, the ratio of the length of the coast to the population had a little something to do with the country's ability to produce the elite. It's when you don't have the natural resources that you need to pour extra money into the facilities. So, I can see it much more costly to produce elite swimmers out of a land-locked, cool weather place like Minesota or Wyoming, then it would be on a mediterranean coast. I'd expect people from minesota to excell in sports that are more incidental to the natural resources available to them. As for Ausatralia, it is my understanding that most of the country's population is concentrated in coastal areas, so... no big surprize that they crank out good swimmers.

RE: The book gold in the water

Former Member — Thu, 01 Jan 2004 09:10:51 GMT

Every 6 months the YMCA offers "Splash Week". This is a week of swim lessons, for 5.00. It's objective is to get kids into the Y learning water safety that normally cannot afford lessons. It keeps its costs down by using volunteers. Having been one of those volunteers I observed several things. The split of white/black is about 50/50 and the ability and eagerness is equal. All these kids want to learn to swim, and have a good time. Last spring I had one 11 year old black girl who watched my 10 year old zip around, found out she was on swim team and really showed a strong desire to be on swim team. She worked really hard in those 5 days, and for the short amount of time, really showed improvement. She asked for the number of the swim team office, and I gave her the name and number to contact knowing sadly that I probably would not see her. Why, because she also told me she played basketball and at 11 was already about 5-5 and very athletic. I am fairly certain she is playing basketball and enjoying it. It is an activity her family will be able to get her to easily as it usually practice right after school. No driving clear across town to get to the pool in the evening. Swimming takes a tremendous amount of parental support. I am not saying that these kids don't have support, but if the parents are struggling to make ends meet, it is even harder to get the time to get their kids where they need to be. That said, isn't there an inner city team in NYC that is succeeding with this? I thought I read an article a few years ago in Swimming World about this team.

RE: The book gold in the water

Former Member — Thu, 01 Jan 2004 08:45:57 GMT

Everyone is an individual, but there are groups out there that have things in common. These groups are under represented in our sport. If we want to reach those groups then we need to understand how we are failing now.

RE: The book gold in the water

Former Member — Thu, 01 Jan 2004 08:36:43 GMT

My thoughts on scholarships. Paying for club fees are just part of the costs. The club fees are probably only 1/3 to 1/2 of what I pay for swimming. There are also meet fees, 2.50-3.50 per event, swim a 3 day meet with 2 kids, you do the math. Do one of those meets a month, you are talking 300.00 in a season meet fees. In Central Illinois, we have to travel for meets, USA, Masters, no meets close. That means hotels and having a reliable car to get you there. A 3 day meet weekend in Chicago or Indy costs me anywhere from 200-400. The 200 is if I cart my microwave along, pack a bunch of meals in coolers, and eat in my room. Something I have done for JOs. There are admission fees, heat sheet fees at the meets that cost upwards to 30-50 dollars a meet. My kids have not even got to the elite level. Sectionals last summer probably would have cost around 1000.00 to travel, y-nats if my son ever makes it will cost around 3000.00. Also, going to all these meets takes time away from work. If you are working a job that you get paid if your there, not paid if your not, then you are not going to meets. Yes, you can keep the cost down by doing small local meets, but if you want to bring your kids up to a level that colleges would be looking at them, you have to fork over the bucks and go to the meets.

RE: The book gold in the water

Former Member — Thu, 01 Jan 2004 08:35:25 GMT

Why do we have to put everyone in a group? ie WASP, African-American, Oriental. I would prefer to think of each person as an individual. I think as a society we'd be alot better off. :confused:

RE: The book gold in the water

aquageek — Thu, 01 Jan 2004 06:54:48 GMT

Phil - again, I believe you are off base. American swimming isn't strong because of college. Most kids start swimming at age 4-6 and college is the culmination, not the beginning. Many of our best female swimmers are actually pre college years and Michael Phelps is a prime example of a male athlete excelling before college. Swimming starts at the youth level and goes from there. Kids don't get good in college, they are already superior by the time they get the shcolarship. How can you claim we underperform compared to your size and wealth? We compete and win in almost every major sport. If size was all that mattered, then China would win everything. If wealth was all that mattered, Saudi Arabia would win it all. Quoting a sinlge country in a single sport is a poor analogy. Sure, the Australians are good swimmers, but they stink at most other sports (save Volleyball). The Netherlands? What else do they even play? No one really cares how we swam 40 years ago. America rules in the pool now. There is zippo evidence that forcing swimming on the less fortunate has made any difference. Maybe we should build pools in rural Iowa so our farming brethren can excel at that as opposed to football.

RE: The book gold in the water

Former Member — Thu, 01 Jan 2004 06:40:28 GMT

I agree with Sam and Dorthy. That observation is consistent with what we know about swimming being a middle/upper class sport. My granddaughter's swim team offers scholarships to any swimmer who maintains an A/B average (killing two birds with one stone, more or less increasing the chance that a swimmer will get an athletic scholarship when they enter college). Okay, if part of the problem is money, could USMS start a scholarship fund for members to donate to on a volunteer basis; and/or local clubs could have a scholarship event or two during regular swim meets where the fee for swimming in the event would go to the fund?